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LovelyDaffodils posted 3/18/2014 17:10 PM

We are less than 3 months out. Getting some TT. Mostly seems like it's never a good time to talk about the A. WS job stress, chores around home, etc. It's very important to me, but I also don't want to use up our times for us to relax together which I really do enjoy We have had one MC session. It will be a month between before the next, but hoping to be more regular then. So I'm glad I found SI. I spent the first month obsessively looking for more evidence/info. That was replaced by extreme sadness that I may never know what I think I need to. Then questioning why I had that need. I've made some sense of that now. Mostly thinking that everything that makes me trigger may have nothing at all to do with the A, I just imagine it does. WS is doing some things right. Keeping in touch, Find a friend on the phone. Accounting for where he is. But....
at the end 2nd of 2 Q&A talks (around 1 month after Dday) I said, ok, so lets go through your phone.. I thought he was going to pass out!! He said, NO, we are not doing that! Not while I was still so worked up about everything... WTF!? then some excuse about screen to small, blah, blah, I asked if there were pics, etc, he said no. Told him if there were any contacts he could not explain, they should be deleted. He said he could pull up the list on his laptop. I felt a defeat then, that I'm not sure I have recovered from. He changed the password on his laptop when I got so obsessed. I think there is probably nothing new to find there anyway. He now keeps his phone VERY close. Though I have the pw to that and have snooped. He's had time to delete all now. I still would not feel comfortable just picking it up in front of him... sad... I have explained, but not enough I guess the need for transparency. He thinks as long as he is nice, we are communicating and loving to each other, all should be good.
I guess I have not really pushed because I'm still on the fence. But have decided that I can't worry about the outcome. That if it is going to be a better marriage we have to do the work to find out.

When I see here how much other WS are willing to spend a lot of time talking about A, I feel so far from that. I told him if I keep feeling that he is not willing, we may have to separate. He assured me he was willing. But then seems to fill time with everything he can think of so I never feel it is the right time.

I feel like if we can't even get through the details of the A, then I'm never going to get to the hard questions. I have one main one in my mind. I don't know who the OW is. His story of how they found each seems a bs story. A guy he worked with and only once a month for a few months gave him the number of a woman that was the roommate of this guys ex from years ago. The guy knew WS is married. She lives a few hours away. they texted, talked, hit it off and he met her when in the area. WS says just 3 times. One of those times, she came to near where we live to meet him in a hotel. She finally figured out he was married and ended the PA, but stayed in touch with him for a while. Last contact was a week or so after Dday and he replied with a NC text. The guy that gave the number, conveniently moved out of state. So I have no way of knowing if any of that story is true. I have 2 theories. One is he met her on an internet site. The other is it is actually someone he has known in that town for a while through work-is possibly married. He will not give a name, won't tell any specifics about her-well that she had 2 kids, one grown and one 10. Anything else about her is off limits. He says she has nothing to do with it, not her fault, blah, blah. Ok, so she still contacted him, if only about trivial stuff for months after knowing he was married. I just feel like she is the answer to me finding out how they met for sure. And if she is fact married, her BS needs to know. I have not said any of this to him at all. Is it right for him to protect her if she didn't know he was married at first, no matter how stupidly she acted? Unprotected sex being some of it....He also gave her a fake name.

LovelyDaffodils posted 3/18/2014 17:18 PM

To add... One thing I did find on his computer right around Dday was that he was looking up exes, from 20+ years ago. Asked him about that and he admitted that he had been texting with one for at least a couple of months just before that. She is married and they were commiserating At the same time, I found internet searches for flights to her area. His story on that is he was looking for prices for her family to come to our state for a sport thing for her son. I have contact info for her. He still has it in his phone, but has told her we are trying to work things out. He said she didn't think it right they spoke anymore. Also said she told him he was wrong for cheating-he had told her about a lot of it before I even knew.

ChloeandPrimo posted 3/18/2014 22:01 PM

You need a lot more MC and a lot more often. He is lying to you. When my husband came clean, he gave me passwords to everything. He showed me his own ad on Craigslist (GROSS!). He even gave me his secret email password and I read the 175 messages where he was trying to hook up with random people (both men and women). He was into just PA, no EA for him.

I made him give me the names, addresses, occupations, history, and phone numbers to every person. I have never contacted any of them, but I wanted to know who they were just in case at some point he tries to contact them or they try to contact our house. Or maybe in the future there will be a circumstance I have never thought of during which I will need such information.

When I insisted during MC that I get every detail I asked for about his encounters (some were very specific), the counselor wanted to know why. I said it was important that if I were going to forgive him that I knew what I was forgiving him for. Plus, my imagination tends to run wild when I don't know the truth and knowing what really happened would help me control my imagination. Then I told her that if I were going to re-commit to my husband, I wanted to know who he really is.

Also, I wanted to know what I was really living in the last year. How deep of a sewer was I in so I could figure out how nave and blind I really am. I needed to learn about myself by knowing what the reality of our marriage really was. I am done with fantasy land. It could have resulted in my getting AIDS. (He didn't use condoms.)

I told my husband that I refused to be ashamed about my detective work because he had been so dishonest for the last year that he should have no expectations of respect for privacy since he abused the privacy and respect that I had afforded him the last 10 years.

So, whenever I feel like investigating something, I do not hesitate to do it right in front of him. I have asked him politely at times to hand me his phone, and I calmly look through it. He doesn't like it, but I don't like that I have a husband who cannot be trusted with a damn phone.

I search his computer as I please as well. When he grumbles about it, I hand him my phone and computer and tell him he may look up my activities as well and it won't bother me.

We are trying to reconcile, but it would not be possible if he were not transparent and provided full disclosure for all of his activities. You cannot consider yourself in the real reconciliation phase if he has not fully disclosed and become completely transparent. Your husband has done neither and that is why he has been hiding his phone.

I hope your husband decides to come clean so you two can heal. You need a lot more counseling support than you are now getting. Perhaps you could join a women's group in your area for women in your situation. Don't go this alone.

FixYou71 posted 3/18/2014 23:53 PM

Are you saying in 3 months you've only discussed his As twice?
That alone is concerning especially since you are saying you want to talk more and aren't being given the answers and communication you need.
At 3 mos out and as a new member there may be things you dont know yet about the recovery process and what is required to make it work. Have you read from the Healing Library here in SI? Transparency is incredibly important. That is usually indicative of whether the WS has true remorse or not and whether or not they have actually stopped their A behaviors. Not allowing you full access at any given time is very concerning. It is important for you announce your needs and questions and have them met and answered. Without these two things (aside from the obvious no contact) you may find yourself months down the road in false recovery.
Please read the Healing Library. Read the questions for WS and questions for BS and anything else you can. He is, at the moment, controlling the entire recovery process (or lack thereof) when he should be giving you everything you need to show you that he is trustworthy enough to even be given a chance at staying with you in your marriage. He is doing the opposite of what should be required of him. Many BS don't even commit to try to reconcile for months after the WS has been doing all the right things. If you let him continue on this way you will likely never have true recovery and there is a high likelihood his behavior will repeat itself (if it isn't still going on now). There needs to be a set of requirements and a set of consequences. You require NC letters or emails or texts to the OW (wording should be approved by you and should be sent in your presence), full access to all devices anytime you choose, answers to every question you have about the A's, a timeline of the period of time the A's were happening, commitment to IC for him to find out what is broken in him that would cause him to have the As, commitment the he reads books on healing from affairs, him taking full responsibility for his choices/behavior etc. Also, he should immediately come to you with any attempted contact by OW. Consequences would be if any of these requirements are not met he has to immediately move out and you consider his failure to abide by the requirements as a refusal to commit to recovery and as him refusing to take ownership. Most here on SI reccomend a consultation with a lawyer at this early stage just so you know what your rights are if R fails and so you have aleady established contact should you need legal help further down the road.
Right now he should be an open book and be completely understanding of the fact that he now has to earn your trust and that it will take a looong time and a lot of work on his part for that to happen.
I'm so sorry he is not giving you what you need. Please don't just let this go on this way.

Shayna71 posted 3/19/2014 07:28 AM

People who have nothing to hide...hide nothing...especially in a WS case

LovelyDaffodils posted 3/19/2014 07:55 AM

C&P- That is exactly how I feel about getting the answers-Knowing who he really is and exactly what I am forgiving him for. I know I just have not been tough enough. Having to wait for our next MC session has been hard. Our counselor had to go away, so we had to wait. Hoping to get on a weekly schedule when she gets back. I would feel much stronger making these demands with the MC there.

I have told him how dumb I think it is that we have locked each other out of our computers. That now, when we should be trying to discuss things openly, we are keeping things more hidden than ever. I have my phone and computer locked because I have made some secret accounts to try to find him on sites. Seeing the type of people out there has been an eye opener I could have done with out! On my phone is the evidence of the A that I have and he has never seen it. He knows I have something, but not exactly what. Today, I am going to put it on a storage card and delete all from my phone. Then there will be no reason I can't hand him my phone. I can also do the same with what is on the laptop, but I don't want him to find my SI username (?)

It's really tough-I mean I really have to be on my game when I discuss things with him. He is really good at all the misdirecting, blame shifting, defensive walls.. I don't allow the blame shifting anymore. I have owned my part of the bad M and he has owned his. But he knows the A is 100% on him.

He knows I have found SI about a week ago. I have read to him a few snipits of things that I have identified with as far as what a BS goes through. I have not suggested he do any reading on his own. I'm disappointed he has not shown an interest on his own. Again, maybe something the MC can point out to him. Or maybe I just order a book and hand it to him?

I truly think he just doesn't get it. I have educated myself. Been to the healing library, etc. Wish I had found this weeks ago. I wasted so much time searching for info when I could be much further along taking care of my own needs and getting more of what I need from him.

LovelyDaffodils posted 3/19/2014 08:33 AM

We have talked about how we are feeling, about my bad days and triggers, what we are working toward (butterflies and rainbow talk) But when it comes down to details and timeline, other than a about a dozen random isolated questions, we have not spent any real time and discussion other than those 2 times.
He says I come at him nasty-when I feel I'm being quite calm. I say he goes in shut down mode-he says that he doesn't feel that way. So it may be just our way of communicating doesn't make the other feel like it will be productive.
He said to me once weeks ago he would answer any questions, but wondered what the goal was in knowing certain things. At that time, I didn't have an answer I could put into words. I have thought a lot about that. I don't know if I will end up wishing I didn't know certain things, but I do know all of these questions are not going away for a reason. So the other day, I told him that is what I have come up with as to what the goal is.

I found SI a week or so ago and read most of what you suggested. What a huge help!!! I was able to communicate my need for him to have a better attitude about any discussions. He was sort of shocked, not knowing where that came from. He knows now I have been here and I think is glad that is a help to me.

As far as NC, he has done that with the PAP. I don't think he has been in contact with the ex I suspect could have developed into EA. I told him it was wrong for him to discuss our M problems with her. I do feel that she actually pushed him to come to me and question if we should even be together-which he did-before I discovered the PA that was ended a year before. She actually initiated NC when he told her we were trying to work things out.

I did come right out and ask if he anything had happened since Dday-any contact with either- and he said no, that he would have told me/showed me.
My gut tells me that is the truth. I really think he wants to do all the right things as far as his behavior from here forward, like he says. But, as you say, unless he really does all the work related to his past issues, it is only a matter of time before he goes back to his old ways.

I have not contacted a lawyer, but my best friend's career is in law, so she has answered a lot of my questions and will be of help there.

This morning, I am thinking I will tell him has to give up his pw when he gets home. I have not distinctly made that demand so far. Just typing that has me a wreck as I see it drawing a line in the sand... I know what I have to do if he refuses....

FixYou71 posted 3/20/2014 00:02 AM

Wondering how things are going for you?

Gotmegood posted 3/20/2014 00:36 AM

Just a suggestion: order the book How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair. Immediately. It was just mentioned on another thread here, and I remembered how much it helped in my situation. It was my Christmas present to my WH. It's short. It's succinct. It hits home to any WS who thinks (or hopes) that it will all just 'go away' without them having to cough up all the information you need for healing. My WH used to say "but if I talk about it, it will just be more hurtful to you". The book explains why this is not accurate. And if he won't read it on his own, read it to him. Having it around will tide you over between MC sessions. Best of luck!

peoplepleaser posted 3/20/2014 01:37 AM

Regardless of the reason, he is hiding things. That's just not ok.

In my case after DDay 1 my WS have me TT about the recent EA, and blatantly lied about everything else. I thought her shows of regret were remorse, her attempts to fix it were genuine, and that u was so lucky compared to others on the site. I overlooked the suggestions I received for taking a stronger stance because I was listening to my WS who declared our situation was different and as long as we treated each other better everything would be ok. We were even in MC with a crappy C who focused on the relationship issues over healing the infidelity. After DDay 2, when I found an EA from 2 1/2 years ago, my eyes were wide open. I had a list of what I needed to R, kicked WS out and did the 180.

I suggest you read the healing library, pay close attention to the pattern of behaviors that are consistent among WS's to predict the meaning of his behavior, and develop a list of what you need to R. Gently, from what you've shared about your situation, I fear you have a lot of painful information headed your way if you investigate or if he decides what he really wants. If I could go back I would have researched everything possible early on. It sounds like one of the women might be a good source of information if what you've been told about her is true.

I see myself in your post. It seems you are worried about ruining the chance to R. When I look back now, and I'm not that far out, I'm kicking myself from 7 months ago for being the one more concerned about that. You did nothing wrong. Make it his battle to prove R is on the table.y requirements were full transparency, an effort to reveal the worst of what was done, IC and MC, and shows of remorse through compassion and understanding when I trigger, which meant no defensiveness, no justification and no arguments about needs to verify trust by checking all sources of communication with others. Since then we have decided that anyone who comes close to the profile of AP is off limits for one on one contact.

My heart goes out to you. I feel your pain, your hesitance, your abandonment and your frustration. If he's worth a chance at your forgiveness and R he will show you by meeting your needs to heal in the relationship with him. If he's not, you will find ways to empower yourself to heal without him and you will be ok. Unfortunately, it seems that most times the WS needs to see that to realize what they've lost.

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