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justinpaintoday posted 3/23/2014 07:17 AM

First off: I posted for the first time yesterday and the responses have been so helpful. Because of that I must come back to the well for wisdom.
Here goes: 3 months in I've read numerous books, IC, MC, SI etc. All in 100% on saving marriage. WW in "the fog". No transparency, IC, did MC until we stopped because we couldn't get past transparency and IC.
I am CODEPENDENT. Last night took her out for nice dinner and show. Said she's not gonna do IC (Never talked transparency).
Was going to file for divorce Tuesday but am wonderring if 3 months is too soon if there is a chance she's in "the Fog". My wife is ultra defensive and would shut down if I filed. Is a short term plan the 180 vs filing? I've been trying to "nice" us back to health and this obviously has failed. I have given her all the power. I truthfully think this could work. I normally kiss her goodnight to which she is cold. Last night I gave her a fist pump goodnight. This triggered her to call out "goodnight" a second time before I left the room. Has anyone tried the 180 before seperation and divorce and seem positive results? If nothing else the 180 would sure help me so I will do regardless. Thanks for the help as always.

annb posted 3/23/2014 07:30 AM

Hi, justinpaintoday, so sorry you find yourself here.

The 180 is designed to help YOU detach. Sometimes it will help push the WS out of the fog, sometimes not.

You will never "nice" your WW back into the marriage. You need to put yourself in the driver's seat and deliver Shock and Awe.

I did not find this site until almost 4 years post D-Day, but there were some things I did right upon discovery:

1. Insist on NC.
2. Complete transparency.
3. Work travel comes to a complete halt.
4. Focus on the marriage and family.
5. No socializing on the job.
6. Accountability for his whereabouts at all times.

^^^These were my initial requirements. Several were added as time progressed. Infidelity is a devastating blow, but I was strong enough to make it perfectly clear that I would not tolerate bullshit. Period. My way or the highway. Anything less would have resulted in me going to his boss (A with co-worker), meeting with an attorney, and outing him to his family and friends who thought he was the epitome of a family guy.

It worked for me. WH was scared to death of losing me and our children. He did TT me to death, but everything else I requested of him was done without hestitation. That's the sign of a truly remorseful spouse. Actions, not words. It's been almost nine years since D-Day, and I STILL have access to everything. No going back to blind trust.

You can meet with an attorney and file and stop the process along the way. It is never black and white. You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to possibly save it.

[This message edited by annb at 7:34 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)]

justinpaintoday posted 3/23/2014 07:46 AM

Thanks for the reply. Right now I get nothing regarding transparency. IC not gonna happen. The struggle with codependancy is the urge to "save" her from herself. Is there a chance? Could I just convince her to fight for us? I realize reading these posts that I am living on Fantasy Island. I just can't get my heart to where my head is yet. Somedays "yes" some days still believe there's hope. Crazy.

I am going to implement 180 NOW. This is for me. Regardless of the outcome in my M I need to break my codependent ways. I was going to file Tuesday but think I might need a little more time to get myself there...I don;t trust my own thinking right now and want to make a clear choice.

confused615 posted 3/23/2014 07:56 AM

You have been trying everything you can to save this marriage...but the person who broke it isn't lifting a finger.

Stop. Stop everything you have been doing. It's not working. You are getting the same results. Change tactics.



If she comes around..great. If not, then you are in a healthier frame of mind to handle what's to come.

Oh...and who pays for the phone or Ipad, or whatever device she uses to contact these OM? If it's you, turn it off. Stop funding her affairs.

justinpaintoday posted 3/23/2014 08:04 AM

confuse: The phone is on her parents plan. We got into a fight and she broke her other phone on our plan (that I could monitor) and then got a new one on her parents plan. (Yeah I know how that looks....they are enablers).

I don't think she is still cheating but then again have NO DAMN CLUE.

Detaching and 180 start today...we have not seperated so the house is tense (not horrible as we seldom discuss anything). 180 will be good for me. I need to start rebuilding my own self esteem and value regardless of M outcome.

BtraydWife posted 3/23/2014 08:24 AM

I think filing for divorce is the best way to get her to commit. You'll know right away what you're dealing with.

I've spent the last 4 years trying to "help" my WH understand. All he's tried to do is avoid doing any work on the M and he has twisted the things I've said and his therapist has said into believing he's "standing up to me" when I'm pissed at him for still mistreating me.

4 years - still mistreating me

I can't express how much I regret not kicking him and out and filing in the beginning. I should have been much harder on him.

I didn't think I was trying to nice him back but in reality, I was. Even if I was demanding, and holding him accountable, etc. And it's all because of my codependency issues.

Kick her out and file for d. If she changes her mind and commits to healing your marriage you can always not follow through with the d.

You only get one chance to set the stage for possible R. It won't work the way you have been doing it. However much you half ass giving her consequences, she will equally half ass her commitment to reconcile.

She meets all of your minimum requirements or she's out the door. No exceptions. Anything else from you implies an agreement that she doesn't really have to do those things.

Be stronger than I have been. You deserve to be treated well and to be safe in your marriage.


brkn_heartd posted 3/23/2014 08:32 AM

You have already been given some great suggestions. As mentioned, if you file for divorce, it doesn't mean you have to go through with it. I tried the nice, but he was still in his relationship and wasn't ready to end it. When I told him I was moving toward divorce, he finally got it. I wish I could say everything was perfect after that, but it wasn't. We still struggled, but 4 years later in a good place.

As far as R, if you file and kick her out and she wishes to remain married, list your conditions, your boundaries and consequences FIRST. Such as...required to participate in IC or XXXX, 100% transparency or XXX, no lying about anything or XXXX, full disclosure-finding new information after full disclosure results in XXX. You get the point. That even will help you if any thing happens, you will have already made your decision on how to handle it and will not be waffling later. I wished I had done that first.

Work on the 180 for YOU. You will occasionally break it, if you do, dust yourself off and start again. It is different and can be difficult to put into place when first starting (example, engaging in a conversation that later you wished you had not). Do see an attorney if nothing more than to find out your rights.

Merlin posted 3/23/2014 08:32 AM

'Nice' your way through this?

Doesn't seem to be going to well, does it?

The 180 (a real one, not what you are pretending is a 180) may save your marriage. What you are doing is just assuring the status quo.

confused615 posted 3/23/2014 08:39 AM

You have said that before..that you don't think she is currently cheating.


I don't mean that to sound sarcastic. Im sincerely asking why you believe she isn't cheating? All of her actions indicate she is. But we only have what you post to go with, and of course you can't write every little thing down, so you know more about this than we do.

My concern is that YOU are in a BS fog. A BS fog is different from a WS fog. Their fog is basically an easier way to say they are behaving selfishly, their head is up their ass, and are so blinded by their affair they can't see reality.

A BS fog varies. Your dday was very recent. You have been traumatized. You have an unremorseful, cruel WW who is taking advantage of your pain. You are desperately looking for the woman you married. You are trying to bargain, beg, stand on your head to get her to find remorse. All understandable. Your entire world has shifted and you really need to believe she isn't cheating still. This is one of the reasons we recommend the 180. You need to start focusing on you..healing you..making yourself feel safe. It will help you come out of your fog.

The quickest way to get her out of her fog? File for divorce. Go for custody. Stop being her friend.

craig2001 posted 3/23/2014 09:26 AM

It might be best for you to along with the 180, do some detective work on your own.

You continue to believe she will come around and be like the good old days, that cannot happen until she realizes what she did do is very wrong.

Nothing can happen positive if she is still having this affair.

Does your wife come home on time, do you know where she is all of the time?

Maybe it is time you actually find out if she is still having an affair. You can use a gps tracker in her car.

Is there ever a time you could have a look at her phone.

Did you ever contact this OM?

Until you get tough, she is going to continue her comfy ways.

jb3199 posted 3/23/2014 09:56 AM

Reread confused615's last post. Then read it again.

I understand all too well what codependency do many other members. We also know that it is an unhealthy trait, and is a focal point of your future well-being. If you haven't read it yet, find the book "Codependency No More".

Have you been going to IC?

Merlin is correct---not only have your current methods failed, but have made you look even worse in your WW's eyes. You need to dig deep down in yourself, and find your righteous anger...and use it constructively. Stop making compromises in your own head. Get to a lawyer, immediately, and if nothing else, learn where you legally and financially may wind up post-marriage.

Stop focusing on your WW. Focus on you. Not only would I be working on a *real* 180, as Merlin points out, but I would be working on as little contact with your WW as possible.

I know that this all seems counterintuitive, but believe us---we have been down this road before. Not only is your WW's behavior textbook, but so is yours. And they are both the wrong way to behave. You, in particular, have to stop selling your soul to the devil. You are compromising every good trait that you stand for. You are allowing her to steamroll your good intentions, and are not enforcing good boundaries. I know that it hurts to be where you are right now...and you would probably cut off a limb to get things to return to the good times...but it is just not going to happen.

The only chance you have to achieve that, is to get yourself to a point that you could walk away from this now toxic marriage. Only then, MAYBE, will your WW pull her head out of her ass. Forget about "fog" talk for a moment, because you are desperately trying to apply logic to an illogical situation. Your wife is a remorseless liar and a cheater, who is not only continuing to do so, but who is arrogantly throwing it in your face. She is so high on her perceived "power", that she has nothing but disdain, and a total lack of respect, for you.

It is time to take that power back. You are stronger than you currently believe.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 9:58 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)]

hopefulmother posted 3/23/2014 10:36 AM

Agree with others.

You will never nice them out of an A.

Just stop and think about it. Nicing (not a word) requires emotions. Which at the time are really warped and confusing for them.

You need to detach yourself to heal. 180. Stop worrying about the outcome. I know that is hard to do. But after you detach you will understand what this means.

No longer give her the cake (fight for what she doesn't clearly want right now). Be cold and indifferent. When she doesn't get her cake or her comfort zone, it may shock her into reality.

Go forward without her. Shock her into reality.

OK now posted 3/23/2014 12:38 PM

I would file for divorce and start the marriage clock ticking. She then knows its up to her to change her attitude and make a real effort to save the relationship. If she makes no effort then you have your answer; she just doesn't care.

First of all you need to accept the possibility of divorce yourself. Don't use a threat of filing hoping she will change; you have to accept the real possibility that this marriage could very well end because of her chronic indifference and lack of respect.

frenchmoxie posted 3/23/2014 14:05 PM

I am so sorry that you're going through these rough times but I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I read that you gave her a fist bump good night

LA44 posted 3/23/2014 15:38 PM

I don't tink the 180 is a dumb idea. I really like what Confused wrote you.

The next time you go out for dinner w her, it will be bc she is out of the fog and trying to reconnect w you. She will be the one asking, wooing, paying for it. And instead of the bedtime fist-bump, just head upstairs, tonight. Be sure to stop at the top of the stairs and let her know you prefer to sleep alone too.

You can do this!

[This message edited by LA44 at 3:41 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)]

justinpaintoday posted 3/23/2014 17:15 PM

Thank you so much everyone. Confused I did reread your post several times...thanks. I have felt myself coming out of my fog the past couple weeks. The idea of being without her is not overly threatening anymore. I think I cling more to the idea of being with her than the reality of who she has become.

I definetely have been too nice. I make conditions and then back pedal in fear. Sheesh I am learning alot about myself through this. I see weaknesses I certainly need to work on and strengths I never new I had.

I think I am getting to the point where it doesn't matter how much I love her, I can't make her do the right things around accountability. I can;t make her want to fight for it.

The funniest thing is she has never had to do a thing. Works 10 hours a week for fun money. I pay all bills, grocery shop, cook or buy must dinners....she does no housework. I have been an accomplice in creating this situation of entitlement and privilege.

If we D it will be entertaining to watch her have to work a full time job, pay bills and if in a relationship, actually participate with chores. Her wake-up call may not come til after a D but it sure will come.

tushnurse posted 3/23/2014 17:20 PM

I think you have gotten some really solid advice so far.
Personally I would recommend telling her you will no longer be disrespected and tolerate her absurd o you an your marriage and there are absolutes that you demand, yes demand she does or you will file and those will include complete transparency, IC, NC, and accountability od where she is 24/7.
Give her one week to comply and institute a very hard 180. During this time you see a lawyer, and get your ducks in a row. The feat of pushing her away is I e all BS's have however it is irrational as our WS's have already left.

Keep reading, keep posting. Her anger and defensiveness tell me she is still in her A. Do not have sex with her until you are certain it's over and she has proven she is STD free.

It's time to make you number one. Do not allow her happiness determine how you choose to fin yours. Time to figure out what makes you happy. When I did tho with my horribly codependent self I was surprised to realize tht if I was happy and demanded the respect I deserved I was much much happier.

justinpaintoday posted 3/23/2014 17:34 PM

Thanks Tush appreciate the kind words of support. I am struggling with filing D or placing the ultimatums first. I have IC Tuesday and can help talk it through then. Until then I am becoming an honorary student of 180.

I know everyone says do it NOW I just gotta place myself in the right frame of mind to make things clear. Tuesday is also lawyer day. Once I give the ultimatum she will say NO and I would like to be in the position to file within the day and get the jump.

LA44 posted 3/23/2014 17:34 PM

Sheesh I am learning alot about myself through this. I see weaknesses I certainly need to work on and strengths I never new I had.

This is a very honest and admirable statement jipt.

I said last year that I always determined to "get something" out of this terrible mess. I absolutely have a better understanding of myself (not always pretty) and what I want for our M).

justinpaintoday posted 3/23/2014 17:37 PM

Thanks LA44: For me I am determined to either be a better husband for my WW after this if we can R or I will be a better husband for my next wife if the opportunity is there.

I am a man of strong faith and my relationship with God has certainly been strengthened. In addition I have started to form new friendships at church and at work (healthy ones).

Regardless of outcome I know I will learn and be better regardless of outcome.

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