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william posted 3/27/2014 10:39 AM

The full back story is here ->

The cliff notes version is still VERY LONG.

My wife and I are approximately 40 years old. We have been together about a decade, and married for about 8 years. We fell in love quickly, moved in together, got married, and have a 7 year old daughter together. We lived in Germany for most of those years and about 4 years ago we moved to Italy. Our marriage has had its ups and downs. About 3 years ago we hit a serious down point; we stopped doing things together, stopped having sex, stopped most of our talking together, etc. I am not sure which came first – I detached in response to her screaming incredibly hateful things to me or her screaming incredibly hateful things to me in response to me detaching. In either case, it got worse and worse during this two year period.

In Aug 2011my wife decided to pull away permanently without telling me. The hours of her work suddenly increased and 2-3 nights a week she would be out and come back home much later, she always told me it was work related.

In Winter 2011 my wife’s mother developed serious health problems, she would later be diagnosed with terminal cancer. My wife’s father has always had serious health problems, for as long as I have known my wife he is often hanging on to life by his fingernails, and often requires intensive care hospitalization. My wife began to care for both of them. She also had an argument with her best friend at this time. For a few months she stopped going out altogether except to see/care for her parents or for work.

It is important to realize that my wife’s family is abusive in EVERY sense of the world. Verbal abuse. Emotional abuse. Drug abuse. Physical abuse. Sexual abuse. It was all there. As examples – my wife’s mother used to masturbate her brother at night to “help him” until he was about 12, as a small child my wife had to share a bed with a female cousin who masturbated herself every night before sleep, heroin addicts crashed out on the couch, etc. It all happened. My wife has massive black holes in her memory, whole years, where she can’t remember ANYTHING during that time.

Obviously caring her for parents and spending lots of time around them was very stressful for my wife. At this time I knew there were serious family issues, knew some of the issues, but had no idea of the vast extent of problems and issues – my wife told me some shocking stories sometimes but I never really understood how systematic and pervasive the problems were, nor the extent of them until very recently.

Early in 2012 my wife’s mother was hospitalized off and on and the amount of time she had to spend with both of her parents drastically increased, evidently Italian hospitals have no problems with shoving as much of what they should be doing to care for their patients onto the shoulders of the patients families (even feeding the patients, for example) and my wife felt obligated to take these burdens … so she spent a lot of time at the hospitals. She was going out “maybe” one time a week with her girlfriends and not staying out very late.

My wife’s mother died in July 2012 and her father was completely unable to run the family business. It quickly became apparent that massive amounts of cash were missing with no one knowing “how” or “where” the money had gone. By August 2012 my wife was working at the family business, which was time intensive in nature and as the extent of the problems became more clear she began to work more and more hours in an attempt to save it. Despite these long hours my wife began to go out more and more, spending longer out each night, and always going to the same club. By September she was going out almost every night. By the end of October my wife was sometimes spending the night out, claiming that she was staying at her cousins house or with a friend. Frankly it was hard to tell where she was and what she was doing because she was very secretive and the family business required her to get up very early in the morning (0400 or so) before I was awake and often I couldn’t really tell if she had even come home and then left or just stayed out. Sometimes my wife wouldn’t even come home at all, when she did it was usually only for an hour or two, and often for substantially less. Even getting my wife to come home for dinner or breakfast to see our daughter before or after school became very difficult and was a minefield for an argument. I tried to talk to her about always going out/being away from home, not seeing our daughter, not being around, etc but never did it in the right way. My wife was always angry at me about everything. We stopped talking. In the midst of arguments we would threaten each other with divorce or separation but we never did it. Whenever I asked where she was it was always “work” (which was 14+ hours a day) or out with her girlfriends.

In April 2012 my wife and her father had an argument over the family business - its expenses, how it was vital to cut labor costs, save money, etc – which resulted in her being basically fired. My wife cut down the nights she was going out from almost every night to 3-4 nights a week and was around the house more. We (my daughter and I) were both happy to see her more but my wife was very angry with both my daughter and I very often.

In mid May my wife again cut the amount of time she was spending out and by late May or early June she was only going out a few times a week. By mid June she had stopped going out at all.

D-Day 1.
In Mid June my wife and I talked. We discussed separating, divorce, or working on our marriage. She told me that she had met a guy during this time, that he worked at the club, and that they had an emotional affair that had lasted about a year. The only physical contact between them had been a 3-4 kisses. She had absolutely no remorse, no guilt, felt it was perfectly okay to have done this, she hadn’t considered “us” to be a relationship for a long time, told me that the emotional affair was still ongoing, and that she wasn’t prepared to cut it off. I told her that I was willing to try to save our marriage but that I wouldn’t compete with this guy and that she had to chose between us. A week later she told me that she chose me and disclosed to me that the emotional affair had actually ended several weeks before and that she hadn’t wanted to tell me that. However, he was still messaging and calling her on a regular basis (most of which she ignored). I insisted on no contact if he persisted and she reluctantly agreed with the club he worked at also being placed off limits. A few days later she blocked his phone number. Since this talk my wife has only gone to work and back home, with very few exceptions and for those exceptions I have generally known where she was and what she was doing (most were work related). I began to search online for websites that could help me understand emotional affairs, how to be a better husband, etc … and this is when I discovered Surviving Infidelity. I wish I had discovered it MUCH earlier.
My wife and I engaged in hysterical bonding heavily during this reconciliation. It resulted in an unplanned pregnancy about 4 months into the reconciliation and about 8 months after he affair ended (I am positive that I was the only one she was having sex with at this time). We decided that abortion was probably the smartest option. The stress of the abortion caused us to fall back on old patterns – her being angry and me withdrawing. We ended up becoming distant from each other although not as overtly hostile as we had during the preceding two years, and the reconciliation basically sputtered to a stop.
In early January 2014 my wife told me that a friend had gone to the club, seen the guy she had the affair with, and that they had for a few minutes discussed him. I was very angry because I felt this violated our no contact agreement (which included even discussing him with anyone) and felt very betrayed because she hadn’t immediately disclosed this to me as per our agreement.
On January 12th I asked to speak to my wife about problems and issues I could see us having and to try to come up with solutions so we could get “back on track” again. Much of what I wanted to discuss were things I had gleaned from SI. The talk didn’t go well. We discussed REMORSE, she still had none. We discussed people other than this guy that she had met at the club – I felt she had gone portraying herself as a person deeply unhappy in her marriage and that she had befriended people based upon that information and that they were toxic and increased the difficulty of maintaining no contact. She very reluctantly agreed. However, the conversation had gotten so heated that we decided to break it off until tomorrow.

D-Day 2
On January 13th we talked again. We agreed for us to each go to IC and to go together to MC. After some blame shifting and justifying she agreed that privacy is okay but secrets weren’t and that it was bullsh*t for her to have waited a week to tell me about hearing about this guy. She agreed that lying was unacceptable and that lying included not just deception but also omission of facts. At this point I told her that the truth has a way of coming out, offered her a one week amnesty to tell me the truth, and that at the end of the week would be grounds for a divorce. She exploded screaming at me that I should just assume she did whatever with whoever, that I wanted to make her look like a piece of sh*t, and that she would just file for divorce. Then she admitted that her long term emotional affair had actually been physical, having sex 4-6 times. I think I was in shock. She still had no remorse. We discussed boundaries and the need to form them but agreed to put off discussing specific boundaries. We discussed removing toxic people (including those opposed to our marriage) from our lives and she claimed she knew none. She refused to commit to a reconciliation but said she would try it. The conversation ended in open hostility between us and we went to bed. In bed I started crying. We started talking and she told me that “ she was sorry for the pain she had caused, that it was wrong, but …”. I interrupted her and told her that there was no “but”. I owned at least 50% of the problems in our marriage but she owned 100% the decision to cheat, it was hers, and no “but” could justify what she had done. She minimized, told me she could see why this was important to me but that she couldn’t do this, but that she did want to reconcile.
The next morning I got a long text from her in which she told me that she had felt very confused and suicidal during the affair, that she had secretly been drinking almost a liter of hard liquor a week and remaining buzzed most of the day, and that she was sorry.
On January 16th my wife admitted to me that this guy had been in our house one time. Previously she had claimed all encounters were at his house. He had come over, cooked dinner with our daughter, my daughter had gone to bed, and then they had talked til 4am on the couch but that nothing had happened. It sounded fishy to me. That night I had a panic attack, sat up all night on the couch, and got less than an hour of sleep.
On the morning of January 17th my wife and I talked again. I wanted full access to all of her accounts, her phone, etc. full transparency. She refused and got angry that we always talk about her affair but never talk about the other issues. I explained that the other issues can’t really be dealt with until the affair is dealt with, they are two different things and that the affair would continue to linger in the background and eventually kill whatever reconciliation we had going on unless we solved it first. While at work she sent me a text saying she agreed but only after we had another talk, she had more to tell me, and wanted to understand the amnesty and how it worked. We had to postpone the meeting until the next day because when my wife came home she was so nervous she spent most of the night puking in the bathroom.

On January 18th we sat down to talk. My wife tells me that she had sex 4-6 times during her affair that began in October 2011 and ended in May 2013 but also had “other” sexual activity about 10-15 times, mostly blowjobs. Then she tells me that there were also five other guys that she was sexting with on her phone and facebook – no masturbation but lots of sexual talk and nude pictures sent. She said they had started at various time after September 2011 but that everything had ended by May 2013. She agreed to full transparency. She identified many toxic friends and agreed to remove them. I began a steady fall into deep depression and thought I had found “hell”.

D-Day 4
On January 19th my wife asked to talk to me again. Then she told me that there had also been two one night stands, with two different guys – one is September 2011 (in our car) and the other in December 2012 (at his house).

Somewhere between D-Day 1 and D-DAY 4 my wife acquired remorse. This remorse has sometimes backslidden into justifications, blame shifting, passive aggressive resistance, minimization, etc BUT generally speaking her remorse has only increased as time has gone by.

Some of her behavior is befuddling, to put it nicely. She decided in March/April of 2013 to go “clean”. She deleted her facebook profile. Then re-added most of the people she had behaved inappropriately with back. Then deleted the account again after June. Then re-added most of the same people back. She told each that she re-added that she was going clean (again) and that she was dedicated to her marriage. However, some did not take her seriously and continued trying to entice her back into sexting and exchanging pics with them. She didn’t do it BUT she also didn’t stop it. When I saw this I exploded. She then blocked them all. Then deleted her account all together.

She has also given me transparency (passwords to all accounts, her phone, etc). She is being honest and telling me things that happen that I would never find out about if she didn’t tell me. She is open about where she is, who else is there, and what she is doing. She has not gone or done anything since June 2013 that would give me any doubts or make me believe that she is still having ongoing affairs. To the best of my knowledge she has strongly followed the no contact rules for everyone and cut almost everyone from her life (directly or indirectly involved in the affairs– and since most of her friends knew of her affair they were also removed as well as everyone she ever acted even slightly inappropriate with or who isn’t a friend of our marriage) in an attempt to remove toxic people.

I had served in the go-to special operations capable unit for the Marine Corps for four years, ending about 20 years ago. I had shoved a lot of stuff “into the box”. I realized that I had probably had PTSD when I got out which gradually faded in intensity over the years but that a few years after meeting my wife, but before I married her, that I had probably slipped into a deep depression for many years without realizing it. Gradually I had come out. The stuff my wife was telling me from D-Day 23 onwards has ripped EVERYTHING out of the box and has sent me into a massive psychological and emotional crash. I became suicidal. I stopped sleeping (I take pills now for it but still routinely only sleep 4 hours a night whereas before I was a very sound sleeper). I cry a lot. I get mind movies from operations I went on. I go into intense panic attacks. For awhile I was “blacking out” and would not know how I had gotten to somewhere in the house or how long I had been there. I couldn’t remember simple things and would forget what I was looking for while I was looking for it. A nervous wreck. Some of this is getting better now but most of it is still ongoing. I have searched for mental health care with the Dept of Defense (no help available to me because I am not in America as a former military or overseas as active duty), the veterans administration (about a year or two wait period), and the Italian health system (no English help available at all via the system). I can’t afford the private care costs here. So, no help available.

In addition, there is more than some evidence that my wife has some deep psychological problems. Abuse as a child. A complete lack of boundaries. Manic and depressive stages (during some part of the affairs she was sleeping 2 hours or not at all a night for months on end whereas now she is always tired). Guilt, destructive behavior, guilt cycles. Possible Border Line Personality Disorder (she matches the characteristics in a terrifying way).

At this point my wife is the stronger of us and has been the one helping me when I crash. For this I am very grateful while also being angry that I am being forced to eat the sh*t sandwich.
Since D-Day 4 there has been much trickle truth. I am unsure if this is the “correct” term to use. Most of what I know, including the evolving stories, has come from my wife with very little “discovered” by me. When I ask her a question she answers it. She rarely volunteers information but she does divulge it. Sometimes asking her a question causes her to think deeper about something and give me an answer that changes what she told me before.

This is a very touchy subject with us.

My wife claims some stuff is blocked very deeply and is just a black hole in her memory. I tend to believe her about some things. Some things are cloudy from the sheer number of people involved, the sheer amount of cheating, the extended duration of the cheating, and the length of time ago that some of it occurred. Some things I honestly believe she is lying about either from shame, to protect me, or to protect herself (as an example: the long term affair guy came and spent the night in our house with light, touching over clothes activity, and then slept on the couch. This story has evolved into he DEFINITELY fingered her in our bed, she masturbated him, there is at least a 50/50 she also gave him a blow job, and now she has no idea where he slept because she fell asleep while he was out of OUR bed and he was awoke before he did and she doesn’t know and can’t remember if she asked him to sleep on the couch or not – due to risk of daughter walking in and seeing him in bed with her).

Some trickle truth is serious stuff. She never mentioned several sexting/nude photos people. It’s possible there are so many that she forgot them. I wouldn’t have found out about very many at all if she hadn’t told me about them so it doesn’t seem logical that she would tell me about people A, B, C, D, E, and F that I would never have discovered but then hide person G who actually did less with her than person A. But new guys periodically get discovered or are revealed.

Some is seemingly really minor, without any apparent reason to hide it/cover up/lie because it is such small potatoes compared to the other stuff she is divulging. Where in town did you go with long term affair guy when out and about with him? The list keeps growing. Where were you all intimate? The list keeps growing. How often did he come by your work? The list keeps growing. How often did you all see each other? The list keeps growing.

In either case, the details continue to spill out and it is difficult to tell what is going to come out next and when it is going to come out. Each new revelation damages our relationship, causes conflict between us, destroys accumulated trust, and sends me back into a deep crash.

Finally about 7 weeks ago I got fed up with the trickle truth. My wife had written “a list” earlier that was woefully incomplete. So I asked for another list, this one “full and complete” with everything. One that would detail
- who knew what and when.
- where she did what with who and when (not just sexual BUT the vast bulk of where, who, what, when, etc.
My wife agreed and worked on the list for six weeks. She presented me with a 28 page word document a few days ago.

D-DAY -5
- About 10 NEW guys that she had told that she found them “attractive”, none before 2011. It never really went anywhere (no photos, no physical contact, no sexting) but it portrays a terrifying lack of boundaries and common sense. She says she wasn’t interested in having anything with any of them. However, she also wasn’t interested in having anything with ONS1 and wound up having sex with him in our car. She wasn’t interested in some of her sexting partners yet comments like this are what led to them sexting and her sending them pictures. She is currently trying to explain what she meant by “attractive” to me which is more complicated than it sounds because it was mostly German or Italian that she was speaking. She has no idea why some people she wound up going much further with and why some she didn’t.
- Lots of inappropriate behavior (examples: a guy telling her that he was going to have an affair and her telling him “what about me”, opening massive windows into our marriage to virtually everyone she ever met, contacting almost every former boyfriend that she ever had, flirting but not to point of sexting, etc) with lots of different people.
- Another guy that she sent nude photos too and was sexting.
- More details about long term affair guy. This includes how it led up to the affair, a more accurate version of what happened at OUR house with him that night, that they had sex at her parent’s house, and more information about how she felt during various stages of the affair.
- More details about ONS 1, her thought process, what led to it, and how she messed up.
- More details about ONS 2 including shifting the date of the ONS by several months.
- More details about one of the guys she was flirting with (kissed a few times).
- More details about some of the sexting/photos guys.
- More information about some of the incredibly bad decisions and the thought process behind them that she made that led to her doing so many selfish, destructive, and crazy things.
All of this, including the construction of the last list is complicated by the fact that we are (once again) experiencing a pregnancy and are (once again) having a procedure to terminate it.

The current timeline list looks like this:
Aug 2011 – she checks out of our marriage without telling me.

sept 2011 - she begins flirting with guy 1. around mid september they end up having sex in our car for ONS 1.

sept 2011 - she begins flirting and sexting with guy 2. they continue sexting, sending pics, and trying to arrange a 3-some for roughly 2 years. they meet one time and he kisses her, other than this there is no PA.

march 2012 –photos sent to guy 3, unsure at this point if he responded at all to them or just ignored them.

spring/summer 2012 - she has guy 4 come to the family business and hang out one afternoon. they flirt some, she sends him naked pics, and they sext some. she never seems him again however.

aug 2012 - she has guy 5 come to work at the family business. they both flirt at work with each other and come in on their off times to hang out with each other. one day he kisses her at work and she yells at him, he tells her she liked it. a few weeks later he tries again and she refuses to allow it. however, they both continue flirting with each other and seeing each other on their off time. she asked him out once, not sure if it would be considered a "date" but it never happened.maybe he kissed her a few weeks later when she was giving him a ride home.

oct 2012 - she begins going to a bar and meets guy 6. this is the guy who ended up becoming her LTA, both EA and PA. their first sexual encounter was in late october and their next sexual encounter was around christmas or new years (??) afterwards it heated up rather quickly with much sexual activity between them, including in our house and her parents house. she sends him many nude photos.

oct 2012 - she sexts guy 7 in feb 2012 and they exchange pics, etc between them. she has ONS 2 with him while meeting at his house to plan a tattoo.

dec 2012 and april 2013 - she sexts guy 8 and sends him nude photos.

feb/march 2013 - she sexts guy 9. they send each other nude photos. he is married and has children. after D-Day 3 i outed him to his wife who has since discovered that he has cheated on her multiple times with multiple women.

march/april 2013 - she sexts guy 10 and sends him nude pics. they make arrangements to meet, unspoken is that it is probably sex, but changes to his job force him to change his travel plans and he cant come to this city. he tries to meet her in paris. she considers it but backs out.
may 2013 - she ends her LTA and tells all of the men that shes still in contact with that shes done with it all.

????/2011 or ????/ 2012 – nude photos sent to guy 11. Unsure of extent of it at this point.

At this point I also need to put in lots of other people. Guys she told that were attractive. When she opened an account on badoo she had a guy who wanted to meet her, they met, and she was “shocked” that he wanted to have sex with her but she wasn’t interested at all so “nothing happened”. Some guys that she was flirting with. They all need to be added to the timeline as well. Right now I just can’t do it. When I see that timeline in all its notoriety I feel like throwing up. I just can’t summon the mental energy to do it right now.
For months I have been stressing to her how important it is that I know all the truth. That each new revelation feels like getting hit by a nuke, that it destroys all of the healing that I have done and puts me right back into hell, and that I can’t begin to feel safe until I have all the truth. That each new fact or change destroys any trust I have built back up in her and puts our relationship into below zero again. That the future success or failure of “us” hinges, in a large part on the fullness and completeness of this list. I explained over and over what was meant by “full”, “complete”, and “everything” while she nodded her head and told me that I had already said this.

Instead the list I got back is nothing like what I asked for. It was NOT full and complete. Not by a long shot. There are people I already know about that are not on it. There are details that I know that aren’t on that list. The list doesn’t provide lots of information that I stated (repeatedly) that I wanted on the list. It doesn’t answer most of the questions that I want answer (and not even the hard ones like “why” but the simple ones like “when you and LTA guy went out around town, where did you go”? I want specifics, facts, details – about everything. Yes, I understand she might not remember it. But I refuse to believe that she can’t remember that he met her at a tram stop near her work very often – why isn’t that on the list?
I have handed the list back and demanded that she do it again, full of examples of the additional information that I would like to have on it. I have told her that this is her LAST chance to do a proper list.

I don’t feel that my wife is “deliberately lying” to me. I just feel that she doesn’t seem to take it all seriously enough. That’s not acceptable to me anymore. She, once again, knows that she needs a full and complete list. She, once again, knows what is expected. She, once again, has started to work on it.

One of the most terrifying things I have come to realize is what I am expecting in the “new full and complete list”. I fully expect this list to take a long time to complete. I fully expect this list to be another half ass version in which she once again fails to put effort, attention to detail, time, and energy into it. In other words I expect more of the same. I have been through a false R when she lied to me about the extent of her inappropriate behavior ten months ago. I have endured numerous D-Days. I have been subjected to countless evolving stories, trickle truth, outright lies, deception by misdirection, omissions, minimizing, vagueness, and everything else that can hide the truth (whether intentional or not). I am now starting to accept that she is either unable or unwilling to provide the basic information that makes me feel even moderately safe. This realization hurts more than the cheating.

bionicgal posted 3/27/2014 11:05 AM

I am generally in favor of 100% transparency, but I get the overall sense that your wife was in total and utter crisis, and she may not even have a handle on everything she did. I would look at the TT as less of a test, than a long process of her getting to the bottom of her really terrible behavior. It is more like a pattern of behavior and thinking, than discrete events that you need to worry about, I think. You may never know everything, as it looks like she fell into some kind of sex addiction, or sexual acting out when perhaps addicted to something else. Is that an issue here? It just doesn't seem like someone goes this far off the rails without something else going on.

But, I'd telescope out a little. Yes, you eventually may want/need to know every little thing, but I question how relevant those details are right now. I remember asking myself at one point, does it matter, really, if H got 2 blow jobs or 8? In your case, it may be, is the distinction between 8 and 10 people she sexted relevant? She was sexting lots of dudes, she was out of control, and she needs help. It is all the same lie, although it doesn't feel that way.

But, can she get healthy enough to be in a relationship with you? Does she want to? That is where I'd start and focus.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 11:06 AM, March 27th (Thursday)]

norabird posted 3/27/2014 11:12 AM

It may not be so much that she is unwilling as that she is overwhelmed. KWIM? I can imagine that having already failed you in these betrayals, now she may feel she is failing you in divulging them, and her panic could keep her from being able to keep everything straight.

I know everyone has their own needs for healing but I fear the insistence on this complete and total list may be doing more harm than good right now.

william posted 3/27/2014 12:32 PM

can she get healthy enough to be in a relationship with you? Does she want to?

can she? i dont know . i am really afraid that at some point she suddenly starts sleeping less again (i have no idea how she operated on no sleep for so long), starts lying to me again, and i dont even notice. and then ... i learn later that shes had sex with a multitude of guys again. i dont know if she can get there. she was "normal" and then BOOM - no freaking idea what happened to her.

does she want too? yes. yes she does. that i do believe with all my heart. its why i am still here trying my ass off to help make this work.

but its not even "hard things" she isnt telling me. i ask over and over "where were you all intimate"? only at his house. then our house. then her parents house. how can you forget where you did something like that? forget did you have sex or give him a bj - even those details are impossible to get in one setting.

yearsofpain25 posted 3/27/2014 13:18 PM

william. I'm very happy to see you back. Very worried about you.

Anyway, very gently here...I don't know how many more details you can take my friend. You have way more to deal with here than anyone should ever have in a lifetime. I know you still want more details, and you are still getting more...but take a step back and look at all of this for a second if you can. There is some serious psychological issues going on with you wife. Especially if there are black holes. I can guarantee you she doesn't want to face it or look at it all. It's overwhelming even for us that are not in your situation. You may never know all the details because she may never know all the details. You sense this to a certain extent. To keep pushing her for more in some ways is like pain shopping for yourself as well. I get why you want them. I do. But at some point there has to be enough here to address the situation and move forward with each other. Do you feel that you have enough of the bigger points? As in the who and how much? IMHO, the other finite details are not going to make a difference in your healing or healing process.

And for the same reason that she doesn't "remember" all the details is partly why you are afraid of the future. Can this all happen again? If she doesn't fix what is broken inside of her sure. At this point that's what I would concentrate on. The healing so that this does not happen ever again. Not so much the list anymore. If she wants to continue to give you more as a showing of remorse, that's good. But you both should start to look to each other more now. She needs to continue to show remorse and help you and you need to be there for her with your latest crisis. Focus on those. I know getting IC has been extremely difficult for both of you. This has to happen for any sort of long term healing for her and you.

One more recommendation. Your wife seems like she is learning to establish boundaries for herself and I have seen her previous post over in the Wayward forum. I know she doesn't accept PMs from men. This is good. I have seen someone else over there add "Please no PMs from men. Thank you." to their tag line. Maybe she wants to do the same. I encourage her to keep posting here too in an effort to get her some support.

I applaud your efforts that in spite of it all that you continue to work at this for your family. Truly I do. I continue to root for you and your family. Work on the future together my friend. You both need to start doing that so that the healing process can begin to more forward. There may be more details but that is not going to help you start your healing process together.


atsenaotie posted 3/27/2014 13:55 PM

Hi William, can you forget where you did something like that? forget did you have sex or give him a bj -

I remember asking essentially the same question of my WW, but here is what I figured out. The meetings and sex with her OM were not exceptional events; it was her life at the time. She could remember that she met him to go to hotels or went to his house with him and that they had sex at those meetings. What she did not remember so well was what days she went where, what type of sex they had. The more exceptional the meeting, like on a work trip or after an event she would remember more details about.

In retrospect, this makes sense. I know that FWW and I have had sex in the last two years, and I could probably give a pretty fair estimate of the number of times and variety of acts. What I cannot do is tell you which days in the last year, or which specific acts on which days. So while I know we had sex in December, I cannot tell which days (other than NYE) and I do not remember for any specific sex coupling if I "finished" during penetration, oral, or manual stimulation. In effect, I forget if we had sex or she gave me a bj for any specific time.

Where I have arrived at is; that was then and this is now. I accept that she had sexual relationships with OM. I know what sex with her is like, I know that she was more permissive with her OM, so I have a pretty good idea what the sex was like. I do not know how many times and which acts for specific times. What is important to me know is what she does now and how she treats me.

It is easier for me to accept this now and post about it 4.5 years past dday. At 6 months post dday I was raging at her, and finally with pressure from me and support from the MC she gave me a pretty crappy timeline. While her timeline revealed much more to me than I had suspected, it was also full of gaps and slim on specifics. Still, what I needed to know was that for over 5 years and 4 different OM my W had sexual and emotional relationships. While I do not know what was done when, I do know what was done. I also believe that my W did things with at least a couple of the OM that she simply cannot let herself remember or share. It would be too shameful.

ETA: for a long time I thought that if I asked enough questions and got enough answers I would understand. I was wrong.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:57 PM, March 27th (Thursday)]

william posted 3/28/2014 02:25 AM

i think my last paragraph wasnt clear -> "ut its not even "hard things" she isnt telling me. i ask over and over "where were you all intimate"? only at his house. then our house. then her parents house. how can you forget where you did something like that? forget did you have sex or give him a bj - even those details are impossible to get in one setting."

what i meant was that i am NOT even trying to find out the finer details. I am still trying, 10 months after D-Day 1, to find out the "big picture".

"forget did you have sex or give him a bj" = i am not even asking for stuff like that at this point (except for when he was in OUR house. that really bothers me and for that one episode i WOULD like as much detail as possible).

i am still stuck on trying to figure out what should be really simple things.

- WHO she did stuff with. new guys continue to creep out of the woodwork periodically. since D-Day 4 there have been at least 2 new sexting guys revealed and maybe a dozen others she had some form of much lesser inappropriate behavior with.

- WHEN did it all start? in SEPT 2011 with the ONS1 or was there inappropriate stuff going on our entire relationship that i didnt know about (so far it appears it all started in SEPT 2011). this is really vital to me because either the problem has existed from day 1 and i never knew and it just escalated drastically OR in fall 2011 she had some sort of crash - the "solution" would be much different depending on which it is.

- WHERE did she see these guys? a basic idea of how extensive it was - even something as simple as "i saw guy 5 at place X about 10 times maybe and at place Y maybe 4 times, and place Z maybe 20 times" would be enough.
an example of why this is important to me is ... we went as a family recently to a beautiful and famous area that i have also deliberately chosen (out of different possible routes) to go through on my way to work, i find out recently after much asking WHERE they went together that her and LTA guy spent much time at and around this area together. i felt very betrayed when i found out that she had brought our family there, i had a panic attack the next time i went through the area, and i will now avoid it forever like the plague. in my mind it is now HIS area.

so i mean that i am not even asking for details like "on Feb 18th i went to his house at 4am and gave him a bj and then went to work afterwards". i dont expect her to remember stuff like that, its not realistic.
i do want details like "we often went to area Y on walks" or a full list of guys i sent nude photos to is A, B, C, D, and E.

i never wanted the list to be some minute blow by blow account of her life for two years. i just wanted to get a grasp on what exactly i was dealing with.

however, i talked to my wife last night. i had actually been thinking along the lines of what you all suggested. i told her that

- i have seen that she is making a huge effort to be open, transparent, honest, etc. i do believe that she is trying to tell me everything and isnt deliberately lying or concealing things.

- that having to come up with a full and complete list with failure being a deal breaker for our marriage is putting massive stress on her and is pushing her close to some kind of breakdown.

- that each time she comes up with a list that isnt full it causes me to stress out, i get angry, i push her to be more complete, and that then increases the stress on her.

so i offered an alternative. why dont we work on the list together. not everyday. not even regularly. but when she feels up to it, periodically, we can sit and pick a person and put in some details about them. if she forgets something and we have to add it later, its okay. it doesnt need to be done by X date. it can get done when it gets done and if some things are never known ... well, thats okay too.

the relief she radiated was palpable.

to me its more important thing that she continues putting in the effort and trying than it is that suddenly i get to know everything.

im willing to walk in a minefield for her and to periodically get hit with stuff. shes worth it.

i guess what you all are saying is something i have been thinking. thanks for helping me to trust my heart!

[This message edited by william at 2:37 AM, March 28th (Friday)]

yearsofpain25 posted 3/28/2014 08:16 AM

ah. I forgot you had mentioned those reasons in your other thread. Still a good idea to keep moving forward closer together. And very happy to see you doing that. I can certainly appreciate what you are saying by you are metaphorically walking around in a minefield.

Which gave me a thought... not that I'm suggesting you do this because I would never tell someone what to do with their life, but have you guys ever thought of moving back state side to get away from the "minefield" and also to possibly get access to IC? Again...not suggesting you do so, was just curious if the two of you had ever thought about it.

norabird posted 3/28/2014 08:46 AM

the relief she radiated was palpable.

I am sure you are feeling relieved too. I do think the information you want is eminently reasonable and understandable, but hopefully lessening the pressure to get there by x point will be helpful to you both.

gonnabe2016 posted 3/28/2014 10:57 AM

- WHEN did it all start?

^^^This is a CRUCIAL question to have an answer to.
I would not spend one.single.second on any other discussion until I had an answer to this.
The fact that she has not answered this question indicates to me that there is inappropriate behavior of some sort that occurred previous to 9/11.
This is information that you absolutely NEED to have before proceeding.

oldtimer97 posted 3/28/2014 14:06 PM

There's an answer to your questions in one word: bipolar.

The number one sign she is going into mania is the lack of sleep that seems inhumanly possible. The second sign, one which is acknowledged on boards, support groups, etc., is the hypersexuality. As my husband described it to me (also bipolar) he is a dog in heat. It would be nice if they'd go hypersexual with us during their manias (and may have during the early stages) but bipolars become diametrically opposed to their loved ones when they've cycled. They also forget a lot of what they did while they are manic.

It doesn't sound like your wife is in treatment for this? She needs to be asap. The longer bipolar goes untreated, the worse it gets...this is what has happened with my husband and myself. His manias were spaced apart by years, so after he came down we were off searching for the cause, hoping it would never happen again. You've lived it, I've lived it and I wouldn't wish this mental disease on my worst enemy (maybe a couple of OW tho, hehe) Because of their behaviors, bipolars have a high failure rate in marriage. Untreated, they also have a high unemployment rate, because they either quit their jobs in a manic whim or their behaviors cause them to be fired.

I would encourage you & your wife to learn as much as you can about this disease and like was suggested earlier, move stateside if you can't find adequate care. She will need to be in treatment & medically compliant for the rest of her life if she wishes to experience a higher quality of life then she has in the past & you will not feel safe until she does. I should also mention my daughter is bipolar & she turned her life around once she became diagnosed and started treatment. I wish the best for your wife and you!

MediumRare posted 3/28/2014 17:00 PM

Hi william,
You've been through a lot and I'm very proud of you for holding up so well! You really deserve a pat on the back for being there for your daughter and not unraveling from this terrible experience with your wife.

Your WS sounds like she has a lot in common with my WS in her past, which is possible borderline personality disorder.

You WS really needs to be in full-time IC and likely DBT sessions for quite some time before you can get any kind of sane, reasonable or consistent result from her.

I'd strongly suggest the 180 as well as keep constant pressure for IC/DBT for her, as well as possibly see if you can get her properly diagnosed as I bet she is a BPD.

Good luck to you, brother!

oldtimer97 posted 3/28/2014 17:39 PM

I will also agree with Medium Rare, bipolar & BPD have a lot of overlapping symptoms. At best??, your wife has bipolar, as observed by the horrendous lack of sleep patterns. As an example, in Dec, my husband took some expired testosterone which sent his manic into hyperdrive (steroids are the last thing bipolars should use in any form, including medical creams to reduce swelling). One weekend he was up for 48hrs straight, the next up for 64hrs w/only 3 hrs sleep. He's starting to taper down now, yet desperately trying to hang on to his mania & self-medicating with caffeine pills and energy drinks, so he's getting by with 4hrs of daily sleep.

Anyways, suffice it to say your wife needs an accurate diagnosis by a psychiatrist & concurrent therapy by a counselor/psychologist. Make sure your voice is included in the assessment, because there are going to be many things you've noticed and can answer that your wife won't be able to. Best of luck!

william posted 3/29/2014 09:27 AM

im not interested in moving back to america. my son lives in germany with his mother who is NOT interested in leaving germany. he doesnt reach his "majority" for several years so i am pretty restricted to location.

my wife claims nothing happened before 2011. i believe her as far as sex, sexting, etc. she also says she never acted inappropriately, that i am not sure if believe.
i know about a guy that she met before me that she sent photos too right after she met me, she also tried secretly to get in touch with him back in 2010 despite a NC agreement she had made with me, and secretly tried again in 2011. i know she met 2 ex bf during that time for a quick (20 minutes to an hour or so) during the time we have been together to talk with them when they came through the city we lived in, which i was okay with at the time.
so i am interested in knowing if she had crappy boundaries during the WHOLE time we were together. had she acted inappropriately with other people i dont know about - was she remaining "friends" with people who were flirting with her but she wasnt interested in and nothing happened with or even flirting with them?
what other stuff did she deceive me with during our relationship?
i know when i met her i was astounded at how little she slept. i tried to keep up with her at first and couldnt, i even fell asleep once while being intimate with her after going a week or two on a few hours of sleep a night. then her sleep period got more normal. i remember at least one other time period where she got to sleeping much less. were there others? was this a regular pattern throughout her life? did she do anything crazy during these times?
had she ever gone through a mass of sexual partners in a short period of time, most of whom she felt little or no attraction for?
so most of what i am interested in regarding the past is patterns. did a pattern exist that i never noticed? is this the first time that she ever went beserk and did something like this or has it been reoccuring throughout her life and i just didnt know? to me that is a VERY critical question.

norabird posted 3/30/2014 11:26 AM

Determining if it is a pattern is definitely crucial. It's interesting that she has had past periods of sleeplessness.I hope she can find a psychiatrist to do an evaluation and figure out if it's a mental health issue that she can be treated for. Knowledge is power and I know you'll keep going until you get the information you need.

william posted 3/31/2014 01:00 AM

its hard to find out.

the kinds of questions that need answers are very introspective, they require alot of self analysis, the only one who can answer them is her, and apparently she cant be sure why she made certain decisions in the long distant past. sigh...

its weird because almost every major decision i have made in my life i can even recount the thought process that led me to make that decision but evidently she cant.

another important bit of information tabled for her IC to take up at some point in the future.

william posted 3/31/2014 07:03 AM

today is the day of the abortion. due to weird hospital rules i wasnt allowed to go. i pick up my wife in a few hours. we have talked on the phone and she seems to be doing okay.

yearsofpain25 posted 3/31/2014 07:17 AM

Know that you and your wife are not alone today. I will be thinking of you, your wife, and your daughter.

Wishing your wife a speedy recovery and you both strength and courage to heal together.

I'm still here pulling for your family william.

william posted 4/1/2014 03:56 AM

thanks. she appears to be doing about as well as can be expected.
we havent discussed her multiple A in a few days so nothing new.

yearsofpain25 posted 4/1/2014 05:16 AM

Thanks for the update. Thinking of you both.

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