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So it has been almost a week since I found out. Please read my story for the details. I want to know everything: conversation details, what did the note on the flowers say, what were your plans when she got here, were you really going to bring her to our home, what made you decide it was ok to buy this ow a plane ticket to visit you??? Am I crazy to want the pieces to this puzzle? My husband doesn't want to talk about this. Yes, he has apologized numerous times, is cleaning, cooking more, has made an appt with a counselor so that is something I know. He just won't talk about anything and I am continously having to ask him questions to get answers. His answers are brief at best. I have showed him this site and told him he should read! He only may do it if I remind him. He doesn't like to read boo hoo. Why was he such an adamant reader of fbuddy sites and texts with the ow??? I would hope if he is really sorry and wanting to stay married he would be reading. I have spent hours pouring over the articles and forums. I think one would want to know about others who are going through something similar. When I ask him about anything he has read he has said "they say it can be fixed". I then ask how they did it. He doesn't have an answer. The only thing positive right now is I am sure talking! I feel like I will speak up to anyone one! I have not been a doormat, but I feel like the lion inside of me is awake. Is this normal? I would appreciate any feedback. Thank you site for being here.

IME if you're pulling the weight of R, it's not R. If he doesn't engage soon, you need to disengage. Otherwise you can get caught up in trying and trying and being hoovered back in because he's doing the "good husband" thing.

Look at me, all these years later I'm in limbo because I got caught in that trap. He'd do just enough to hook me back in.

One thing I did right this time around was insist that answers were non-negotiable. Last time we buried it under the rug. The MC told him he could put restrictions on my questioning. So he did- each question could be asked one time. As a result, I haven't processed it. This has caused just as much or more damage to the M than the cheating.

As long as he's not answering questions, his loyalty is to the OW. He's protecting her and himself, not you. He needs to throw both her and himself under the bus if need be. IIRC the book "Not Just Friends" calls it walls and windows. He needs walls between him and the OW and windows between you two. As long as he and the OW share any secrets, it's reversed. Talking about the A is a way to rebuild the "us" and tear down the "them".

Also, you're very close to your d-day. What has he done to build trust and prove the A is over? I say this because it's more common than not for the WS. To take the A underground.

180 until you get what you need.

Thank you Holly-Isis for your thoughts. I agree about the wall and windows. He just doesn't seem to get the talking part. He has apologized both verbally and written. The written only came after I wrote him a long letter. He has an appt with a counselor this Thurs. He said he contacted ow and told her it was over, has deleted contact info for her and his fbuddy sites. I have been looking at his phone and tablet for activity and history. Haven't seen anything so far. He also cancelled the plane ticket. It is now an open airfare for a period of time or something like that. Guess you can't just return those easily. I made him tell either his brother or daughter about what he had done. I feel like he needs to suffer some humiliation like me. He did do it. His daughter emailed me and wants to talk with me. So I think this is progress, but then I still think he has to be willing to talk. I have an appt with a counselor this Thursday too. Not the same one! I am hoping talking will come from this easier. We shall see.

You ask your questions as many times as it takes. We have to process the info coming to us. Sometimes we have to ask multiple times for it to sink in and be retained. (also we can get different answers, which leads to questions of lying).

When he clams up or gives brief answers it is to protect him and often times her. Also he doesn't want to actually face and deal with his behavior so he ducks the hard part hoping for an easy way out. Not happening, if he really wants to R.

Yes, it is normal.

I was ready to stop strangers in street just to have someone to talk to. I was desperate to know every hateful detail - and my WS didn't want to say a thing. Sadly this is all tawdry and normal.

You are very, very early in the process.

The first thing you should do is read the 180 rules - they are in the healing library under the BS FAQ.

Second - it is way to early for you to know what you want - you just took a major emotional blow - you are bleeding, lying on the ground - you are in no shape to plan your future.

You need to ask his help - ask him

1. Get him to agree to 100% no contact
2. Get him to agree to full disclosure - as many times as you need to hear it
3. Get him to agree to full transparency - he needs to make all electronics, accounts, bills available to you.

You two should negotiate a 6 month window of no drama, no pain - a time heal before you start working on your marriage and reconciling - or start the divorce. A time when you wont hurt each other - even if there will be little love between you.

He will expect that you can/will just get over it. He's wrong - he needs to understand that this is a long painful process. Marriages can heal, love can return - but it takes a long time.

Yes, you are financially dependent on him. However, he is a 71 yo guy - he is not going to find someone who will live with him or commit to spending his aging years with him (the way you have) - you do have some control, some power.

You should find out if the OW is married or in a relationship - and if so, you should let her betrayed spouse know.

I know you are in pain. It will get better.

Thank you all for your words. I have read the 180, but I can see reading it again. I know I need time before I do anything rash. I am trying to take care of me, just joined a gym. That made me feel happy. The ow is not married he said, or I would contact her husband. Time is my hope right now. I have told him he had better talk at his counseling appt.till he is blue in the face. I do find him saying "do I have to tell you what we talk about"? Disturbing! Should that be totally confidential if I want to know? Part of me sees that but most of me doesn't. Any thoughts on that.

((((((Selma))))

His counseling should be a safe space, and he shouldn't have to talk about the details of what goes on in IC with you. However I would hope that he is reaching some breakthroughs with counseling that he will want to share with you. I hope also that he can learn to start talking with you in general, and giving you full disclosure. It's very, very normal to need to know the details of the scope of betrayal at such an early date. You need to understand what the betrayal was before you can decide how to proceed.

I am glad you are finding your inner lioness. Hold tight to her, and keep doing good things for yourself. I can't express enough how crucial it is right now that you take care of you.

[This message edited by norabird at 12:29 PM, April 16th (Wednesday)]

Just because he talks about the A to his counselor doesn't mean the A is off limits for you. You can ask any question you want. If it came up in C, so what. He owes you an explanation, owes you answers, owes you loyalty. Don't let counseling be his answer to avoid dealing with his A with you. He doesn't get a pass.

He doesn't have to share what the counselor is telling him, but the A information is something you have a right to know and probe. You may ask the same questions over and over, he needs to answer them over and over until you feel you can let that question go. (It take time to process details, and retain them, so don't worry that you have asked the questions more than once.)

Well Selma, the man hasn't read squat. That's a nice, fake answer he keeps throwing at you whenever you ask what he's learned from 'reading' something, when he says, "they say it can be fixed." What a crock.

He doesn't want to bothered doing the heavy lifting in fixing the mess he made. He doesn't want to deal with your hurt, tears, devastation, bawling, anger, or the disappointment you have in him. He just doesn't want to deal with it because it's not fun and it's a drag, and it's a pain in the ass.

All he wants is for you to shut up and forget all about it and just move on. Sending him here to read is almost laughable - he'll pretend he read for hours and then tell you (when you ask him what he's read), "they say it can be fixed."

There's no point sending him here. He won't bother reading it anyway, and besides, this is YOUR safe place to come to, not his.

The man has no remorse for what he's done, and he's tired of you 'nagging' him about it.

You can't reconcile with someone who clearly sees nothing wrong with what he did, Selma.

Good luck to you.

selma, I don't know if this will help you or not, but here is my experience. I am at the end of year 4, getting ready to start year 5. Things are good, but it took a long time to get here. It took my FWH a good while before he was able to tell me what I needed to know without getting prickly about it. Is that optimal? No, it is not. I really envied the people I read about on SI who had WH's who were immediately perfect. Mine took some work--work which he had to do. He was not able to tell me all right away because of the guilt and the shame associated with what he did. It tore him to pieces. Should he have been able to put that aside and put me and my needs first? Yes, absolutely, but he was a damaged person (hence, the A in the first place). I will say that he did try, but with varying degrees of success.

If your WH is trying (short answers right now are better than no answers), if he is NC with the OW, if he is going to IC and putting in the work, then I say give him some time. But you have to be the judge of whether you can do that or not. One week out is still very early (which I hate to say, but it is true) and this is a marathon, not a sprint. You get yourself into IC, work on yourself and see what happens. Watch his actions, not his words. Make it clear that you will need the answers eventually--try reading "Not Just Friends", it gives a great road map for working on things after the A is discovered. Write down all of your questions. In fact, writing down all of your thoughts and feelings can be very therapeutic.

I am sorry that you are going through this. It is horrible. Just know that it can and will get better. Maybe with him, maybe without him, too soon to tell. I just don't think you should expect too much too soon. I am sure others will disagree, I am just sharing my experience. My FWH is now an open book about it, still apologizes to me regularly and often tells me how lucky he is that I stood by him. I am glad that I did.

I wanted the details, until she told them to me, then I just wished I'd have not asked.

Sometimes the details are worse than your worst thoughts and mind movies. Sometimes not. You will need to understand this completely before you go down this road.

I feel like the lion inside of me is awake

Selma...yep...your lion is awake and ready to roar !!!

Let it.

Your husband was unfaithful. Emotionally or physically - he was still unfaithful. You have every right to be mad.

He just won't talk about anything

He doesn't want to because then he will have to be accountable for his ugly decisions and behavior. Too bad.

he has apologized numerous times, is cleaning, cooking more

Look up the difference between regret and remorse. He apologized but did he ask for forgiveness? You say you're sorry when you stepped on someone's toe. Sorry doesn't cover this.

What is your WH willing to do to make sure he NEVER allows himself to go down this path again?

It is still very raw and new for you. It takes time regardless of what you decide to do.

I recommend IC for you as well. You will need help navigating these waters. And that is okay.

Take deep breaths and fight for your right to be treated with dignity and respect.

(((hugs)))

Selma,
I wanted answers and got them, did they hurt YES I found out that he was physical with her not once but 3 times. 3 times he CHOSE to betray me. They met in a hotel. I asked him what I thought he was doing?? Golfing or Fishing. If you want answers you ABSOLUTELY deserve them, it wont be easy but it helps. Ask the questions you want, just make sure you are getting the whole answer because if you don't it will be like a new betrayal if/when you find out.

Again thank you all so much. It does feel good to have a safe place to talk. I need to hear how others are doing, what has happened with their ws, what is normal etc. It is very soon I know, so I won't make a D decision yet. I need my own ic, starting tomorrow. He had better make a real go of his ic. Maybe strange, but I agree with much all of you have said. I don't think he is really reading, but I plan on purchasing a book (one suggested from here) and making him read. I am a former 2nd grade teacher, so I will read with him, make him read to me, or read to him!!! Crazy or not? Of course true comprehension may or may not happen. I am prepared to try, but I don't know for how long. If he isn't progressing then I will need to do what is best for me.

I would just caution you to take a step back regarding "making" him do anything. Under these circumstances, his heart won't be in it and, if he does it under duress, it will be meaningless. My advice would be to stop talking to him and start watching. Let him feel the very real possibility of losing you.

Read the 180 again and start it tomorrow. He is going to have to face the ugliness of what he has brought into your lives. Hopefully he will have a change of heart and start doing things because he wants to do what's right by you.

Outofnowhere, thanks I seem to be talking a lot. He hasn't iniated any conversations about A. I will cool my talking for now and see what happens. I have to read the 180 again.

Been thinking some more. Seems like my mind just can't stop! I have been trying much harder than wh. I need to sit back and see what he does or doesn't do now. Communication has to start being initiated by him. I am going to keep myself busy by going to the gym, getting together with friends, shopping, maybe enroll in a class, audition for a play! These things bring me happiness and I need some now!!! I have the right to be selfish now since he sure was.

And let him take care of himself as far as cooking, laundry and such..

These are some of the things you may want to stop doing for him depending on your situation, so that you can gain more clarity into what kind of person your WH is..

It would be helpful in the decision making process if you had a way of knowing if your WH wants the marriage for love or simply to keep the comforts of home..KWIM?

Selma, you are making huge strides! Yes yes yes, do everything for you now and nothing for him. You are a fabulous, loyal, caring, amazing woman, and I pity him that he can't see it yet and treat you as you deserve. But, that's his problem. You just focus on your own support system, on your own life, on whatever happiness or distraction or comfort you can get from healthy sources right now. You will never regret investing in yourself.