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Newest Member: jdgrief (45719)

User Topic: Forgiveness. Lack thereof. Outright refusal
MissesJai
♀ 24849
Member # 24849
Stop  Posted: 11:27 AM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've noticed this trend in our forum. Former waywards who have decided they cannot and should not forgive themselves for their past actions.

Why is that? What is your long term objective when you make the decision that you will never, ever, ever, ever forgive yourself? What are you hoping to accomplish? How do you believe this will help your healing and growth?


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6023 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Neznayou
♀ 40654
Member # 40654
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not refusing to forgive myself. Some days I think I have or might be able to. On most days, I am not too sure what it would feel like to forgive myself and how I would know that I have. Rather than forgiveness, I've been working with the idea of repentant (sorrowful for past wrongdoings AND active, daily commitment to not repeating past wrongdoings AND daily aligning my heart toward my Husband).


Me: WW
Caught at AP's house: 10 Aug 2012
Admitted PA: 12 Aug 2012
TT ended: Jan 2014

"Power, Lincoln, real power comes not from hate, but from truth."


Posts: 325 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: America to Europe
MissesJai
♀ 24849
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not refusing to forgive myself.
That's promising.
I've been working with the idea of repentant (sorrowful for past wrongdoings AND active, daily commitment to not repeating past wrongdoings AND daily aligning my heart toward my Husband).
That's actually a good start. My hope is that with time and continued work, you will reach forgiveness.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6023 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
sunnyrain
♀ 30164
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

... (sorrowful for past wrongdoings AND active, daily commitment to not repeating past wrongdoings AND daily aligning my heart toward my Husband).

Ahhhh, ALL very good, and positive, uplifting and empowering CHOICES!

Thank you for sharing your daily commitments. Keep moving forward!


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
Joanh
♀ 39146
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think its partly not paying the price enough. Its if I forgive myself I have to move forward , Have to put the shame to rest, have to be more.

To forgive myself , I feel its like saying its okay. You can see with my other posts, I am in a pretty deep struggle with this. Part of me wants to so much the other part is saying woah! how dare you, that's the shame the guilt, the unworthiness speaking. Its a personal internal battle.

I want the release, I believe it would be freeing. Cleansing, enlightening. It would mean total acceptance, and accountability. And the freedom to be me. And not be ashamed of me.

These last few weeks have been none stop, in my face thoughts, hard to sleep , restless, searching, but more understanding. I almost think its like getting my feet planted firmly under me so I have the strength to move forward and notlet my affairs control my life.

Forgiveness is so complicated.


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 437 | Registered: Apr 2013
MissesJai
♀ 24849
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for your honesty, Joanh.
not paying the price enough.
What would be enough? What's your definition of that?


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6023 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
heartbroken0903
♀ 27879
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 2:20 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi MJ.

I don't refuse to or "choose" not to. I simply have found it impossible to do for a few reasons.

One reason: if I look at forgiving myself as, say, God forgives---wiping the slate clean, and not holding the transgression against myself any longer---I haven't been able to get there, because I *DO* hold it against me, every day.

Even if I'm remorseful, even if I'm making amends, even if I'm committed to never repeat the behavior...I still willfully and deliberately, with malice aforethought, chose to do something unbelievably wrong, immoral, disgusting, shameful and which caused immense pain to many people I purported to love.

I understand forgiving an accident; the driver who hit someone because he was in diabetic shock. I can't see forgiving the driver who ran someone down on purpose just because it's what he wanted to do when the opportunity presented itself.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

We remarried in 2014.


Posts: 2316 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Joanh
♀ 39146
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What would be enough? What's your definition of that?

This is going to take some thought. Cause wow when I think of answers , I know they would never 'make up for' nor do I wish it on my worst enemy and that's even including my grandfather who abused me.

And perhaps that is the other side of my coin. There is no payment be enough and every payment to much.

I had read another posting where the person said 'cease to exsist' would be the answer , or least that was my interpretation. Well that's too much, and yet still would not be enough!

Cause it will still not change anything

The last few weeks especially this week has also given me some strength to realize, that my payment is living with the knowledge for the rest of my life. The cross , the burden, the mark . It will allways be there.

I don't know if I will get to the point of forgiveness, but I am starting to believe I do deserve it, well at least some days.

Thank you for this post and the questions, you've helped me think about my thought pattern and more.


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 437 | Registered: Apr 2013
MissesJai
♀ 24849
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am starting to believe I do deserve it, well at least some days.
Hallelujah!!!!
Thank you for this post and the questions, you've helped me think about my thought pattern and more.
You're welcome - that was my intent.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6023 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
MissesJai
♀ 24849
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi hb0903. I understand.
I haven't been able to get there, because I *DO* hold it against me, every day.
Why? Are there ever days when you don't hold it against yourself?


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6023 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Mrs Panda
♀ 27303
Member # 27303
Default  Posted: 6:34 PM, April 18th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is tough, MJ, because I don't know really where I stand. I guess I am at acceptance. Is that the same as forgiveness? I don't hate myself, I don't think I deserve to be punished now.

But forgiveness? I don't know if that is the feeling I have about what I did.

My BH forgave me early on. I think this is because his philosophy is that people do terrible things, good people.

I accept his forgveness.

But I am terribly judg mental and unforgiving by my nature. And at the top Of my list of criticized people is me. I do not like that about myself. I want to see more of the good in people. But I can't convince myself that asshole #31 is really just a nice guy deep down.

So I don't know if I have forgiven myself or not. I don't know what that is supposed to feel like. if it is a release and a new beginning, I don't want that. I want to remember.


Me-41 FWW Him-45BH
M 13years. Reconciled.
DDay#1 Nov 2008 (OM2)
DDay#2 Aug 2009 (Confessed to OM 2001)
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." -Kurt Vonnegut

Posts: 1992 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The SouthEast
BaxtersBFF
♂ 26859
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, April 19th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think forgiveness involves wiping the slate clean, as in erasing any traces. We all know, even those years out, that the memories of what we did, of the choices we made, will always be there. Over time, they will lessen to some extent. Maybe there will be one day when you realize you haven't thought about it the entire day.

Each persons situation is unique. But what I've seen is that there are very few of us who knew ourselves back then. Some of us may have realized the magnitude of the choice they were making, but at the same time, they couldn't of known what we know now, which is that we were pretty fucked up and thought we knew what we were doing.

So, I think self-forgiveness is the point at which you believe yourself to be a safe person, both for yourself and for those you love (BS and family). But it the point at which you do these things for yourself. It's when you are honest with yourself.

Is self-flagellation being honest with yourself? By not forgiving yourself are you trumping your BS's feelings by making yourself less tolerant of yourself?

I don't know...I just remember that there was a day when I realized I had forgiven myself. It was weird. It wasn't that big moment that I was sort of expecting. It wasn't emotional or traumatic. It was just a thought.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6103 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
knightsbff
♀ 36853
Member # 36853
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, April 21st (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can feel myself moving toward forgiveness.

For me I think that means accepting all the horrible stuff I've done one baby step at a time. Every wrong thought and wrong choice gets examined and I tell myself, " that was really jacked up." I identify thought distortions and stuffed pain not as excuses, but as necessary repairs to make myself safe. I don't accept what I did as ok, but I accept myself. I am a flawed human who now realizes it will always be necessary to examine my motivations and choices and to strive for growth and improvement.

If I want to be a good wife and mother I have to be a good me first. I have to love myself. Forgiveness is a loving act.


FWW 40's
D-day August 27, 2012
3 kids and 2 dogs

I edit often because I make a lot of typos. ☺️


Posts: 1509 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Deep South, USA
brokeback
♀ 41726
Member # 41726
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, April 21st (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have moments of forgiveness - when everything feels okay and normal. Then, I have extreme moments when I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall. My wife has forgiven me. I really believe she has. We talked again last night and I said, "sometimes I don't feel like I deserve to still have you after what I've done." And I think saying that out loud made me realize maybe I never really believed I deserved her or was good enough for her to start with. I think that's true. Together for 18 years and underneath it all I never believed I was good enough for her.

The other part for me that's hard to forgive is the Karma piece. I really believe in Karma. My AP is getting divorced (bc she's lesbian) and her H has his own issues to contend with, but I think of all the hurt I've been involved in and how or why should I be so lucky to still have my wife, my house, my child, my life...after what I've done.

My only save in grace is I was honest about falling in love with my AP before we ever became physical. I moved out before it was ever physical. I separated from my marriage before I cheated...BUT...I was still married and I still was WRONG and I still crushed my wife.

I'm learning to take each day as they come in this process step by step. I've had to unravel my emotions from my AP, which I believe I have. I had to grieve that loss, as shitty as that sounds. And now I have to grieve what I've done to my wife and child and learn to forgive myself for us to truly move on. It's not easy.

There's also events that trigger everything. Like holidays - Easter. Facing everyone who knows what's happened. They knew I moved out. They knew someone else was involved. So facing the fall out of my actions is hard and painful too, but I am not hiding.

Full self-forgiveness is going to take years. I can't rush it. I need to feel everything I need to feel and I need to process all of it. When I'm done doing all of that, I'll forgive myself, but I'm not there...not even close.

[This message edited by brokeback at 9:53 AM, April 21st (Monday)]


ME 43
BS 38
1 Child 3 years old
Married 18 years
DDay - 10/2013. EA 9 months. PA 4 months. Ended the affair 11/2014



Posts: 69 | Registered: Dec 2013
harrypotter
♂ 39526
Member # 39526
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, April 21st (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Like many other have said here I wouldn't rule out forgiveness for myself but I don't know how to get there. I can say I have accepted what I have done. That acceptance is a good start I think because it has allowed me to fully accept the consequences, feelings etc. Acceptance has allowed me to start rebuilding different pieces of me.
Forgiveness, is something else though and I like others am trying to figure out what that looks like. I think acceptance is part of it, if not the start. I do not think that forgiveness means you forget. I think forgiveness is saying this no longer controls me, it does not dominate me. I also feel that repentance is a key to self forgiveness, because unless you can see and feel the change in your own heart and mind then self forgiveness is probably very hard to come by.
I have also had the realization that I wasn't as forgiving of a person as I thought I was. So I have been practicing forgiveness. I have started with little things, things people have said about me at work things like that. I can tell I am getting better at it and I mean and feel it more. My hope is maybe someday I will be good enough to forgive myself and it's a trait that I feel will serve me well in the future. I have five small kids that will be teenagers soon:).


WS-Me
BS-Her (Lostinthismess)


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jun 2013
islesguy
♂ 38090
Member # 38090
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, April 21st (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I refuse to forgive myself because I can never give back my spouse all of her memories that are now lost, all that she saved over that years that was most important to her, the years of her life that I stole, her marriage that has been forever destroyed, her trust in humanity in general....


Me: WH
Father of 3 beautiful girls

* I am a RS (Recovering Scumbag)
* Do as I say, NOT as I did. :-(
* I acknowledge the grace I have received. I know do not deserve it.


Posts: 231 | Registered: Jan 2013
somethingremorse
♂ 42047
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, April 21st (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

knightsbff said:

I don't accept what I did as ok, but I accept myself. I am a flawed human who now realizes it will always be necessary to examine my motivations and choices and to strive for growth and improvement.

I would like to forgive myself someday. If I do, it will be because I can take thoughts like this to heart.

I think that will happen. I am understanding that I didn't make my choices to have an A for the purpose of hurting anyone. Those decisions were just in the middle of a long series of bad decisions. Just about every single person around me has made bad decisions in their life. We all want to believe that we can move on and fix ourselves. If I can look back at that time and say that I screwed up majorly, but have done everything possible to fix myself, then I think I'll be able to admit that I'm only a flawed human, just like everyone else.


Me: WH (40s)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 741 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
heartbroken0903
♀ 27879
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 6:44 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I am terribly judg mental and unforgiving by my nature. And at the top Of my list of criticized people is me. I do not like that about myself. I want to see more of the good in people. But I can't convince myself that asshole #31 is really just a nice guy deep down.

This is so me. It's part of what I was trying to say above, but Mrs P said it better.

Why? Are there ever days when you don't hold it against yourself?

I have days where it doesn't play on my mind as much. But mostly I have a really hard time letting it go. As rachelc said in another thread on forgiveness, for me it's a feeling and not a choice. I just haven't felt it happen yet. I'm cool with acceptance.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

We remarried in 2014.


Posts: 2316 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Topic Posts: 18

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