This is tough.....but need to share. No longer seeing a CSAT....will talk about in therapy.....but it is 2 weeks off.
I was 10 or 11. I had just taken a bath. I came out in a towel and my Mom, dressed in a robe, met me at the door....and asked me to come to their bedroom. I followed her down the hall and entered the bedroom.
Dad was laying on the bed in his robe.
The exact order of what happened next is not clear....not sure it matters.
My parents took turns showing me their bodies.....very intimately. My Mom showing me Dads naked body, Dad showing me Moms body. As they did they offered to have me touch where they were touching. I just remember nodding no. It was a detailed show and tell (precum noted, touched and discussed, softness and moistness of female noted, touched and discussed, etc).
I THINK they may have offered or suggested that I get naked too....but only like 75% confident in that detail. I kept my rob on, they did not touch me.
Unsure of duration......but more than 15 minutes and less than 30 minutes.
At the end they gave me a hardback book.....don't remember the title but it was college health class in nature. I don't remember the words but had lots of pictures of naked people in it.......things like pre puberty pics all the way up to mature people. An evolution of how a body changes over time. As i ponder this, those pics could have been the first things I masturbated to......Dad told me about the benefits of masturbation and to be a good lover I needed to do it and train myself to hold back my orgasm. He told me how to do that during this sex talk....showed me how to masturbate. (Okay.....this is creepy now. He did not do it long, just enough to show me how to masturbate. Must have been a longet duration than I thought....but he didn't masturbate long, just enough to show me how.) (that's a detail I JUST remembered! I knew Dad told me the advice on training oneself, but forgot about the actions that happened while he gave me that advice).
(Don't think it ever happened again.....parents D 2-3 years after that.....Dad just disappeared.)
When I left the room my parents stayed in there. I remember thinking "that was wierd".......a thought I have held for 3 decades. Never considered it abuse......strange, yes....but not abuse or particularly traumatic.........until an impromptu conversation with my wife.
She had known about this for a long time.....think I told her while we were dating even. We both chalked it up to their "hippy generation, free love" mode of operation.
What changed it for me was last nights conversation where my wife asked "what if my SIL and BIL sat down with their 11 year old son and did the same thing?".
Upon my DD's I chose very poorly.....choices that were wrong and destructive. Choices that humbled me. It was not until I put my daughter in my place that I saw the situation for what it was.....and upon doing that, change started to occur.
Is this a reflection of that early childhood pattern? Me feeling uncomfortable and scared but minimizing my own feelings in such a destructive manner?
Why was it okay for me to tolerate such events in my life......but would rise to warrior-level defenses if my daughter or nephew were in the exact same sitch?
My journey away from porn had me explored sexual past.....specifically probing for abuse. I knew of this sex-talk with my parents......but it never came under examination because I didn't think it pertinent. Never mentioned it to my CSAT as we explored my past. I spent over an hour detailing my past sexual history in writing......never put this down.
Should I have? Is this just hippie sex talk? Is this wrong? Inappropriate? Abuse?
Kinda wondering if this sitch is like cocain......even if two adults use it, it is still wrong and destructive. (Which is how I now view what porn is).
God is with us all.
[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:09 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]
I have a little boy who just turned 11. We talk to him in an age approptiate way about bodies, sex,etc. Never, ever, would I do what your parents did. And if my husband were to jack off in front of my son..and use the excuse(sorry,that's how I see it) that he was just showing the boy how to masterbate..I would leave him so fast his head would spin...and I would go to the police.
Sexual abuse? Im guessing you're questioning if it was sexual abuse because you were never touched? In my opinion(and I was molested..and raped at 15 by my stepfather)...you were very much sexually abused.
Im so sorry.
This post made my jaw drop. Im just so very sorry for you..for that little boy.
..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.
Flat out sexual abuse.
Why drop the CSAT? This is something that they are trained to help with, it is called trauma. It could very well be at the root of your porn issue and poor coping. I strongly recommend taking back to your CSAT if you haven't done extensive work there with this, you should.
edited for typos (I always have to!)
I'm very sorry for you.
Whether or not it would be called 'sex abuse' according to the legal definition of sex abuse, I'm not sure, but by my standards, it was.
And as confused said, if my H had ever done such a thing, I would divorce him in a heartbeat.
If your parents were part of the 'hippie, free love' culture, that may have been why they did such a thing in some sort of a misguided attempt at sex Ed, (I think this because of the giving you the book at the end of the 'lesson') but I don't think that even that would assuage the detrimental effects on an 11 yr old.
I am so very sorry.
PPGA
Selfishly I need to reach out....my go to friend is out of the country and I am nervous to reach out to my older brother. Thank you for your kindness....especially appreciated as I can only imagine the pain you offered this kindness through.
(((JustWow))). Thanks for your support. I dropped the CSAT because of advice I was given.......among it was "have affair like sex with my wife". "Teenagers do sex right". "Porn is not all bad".
We sought out a Christian counsellor and are seeing her now. We are seeking true principals to live by, to do M by. We are finding her most helpful.
Still, I am open to a different CSAT.
Everymans Battle program (breaking free from porn program--Christian based) had me examine my sexual past. I totally never expected I was abused......but was confused by that "fact" because I have some of the classic symptoms of CSA.....but not all. I credited my early use of porn as the cause......just now realizing my first sex experience a WAS this interaction.
I'm in a bit of shock.
My wife is so supportive.....not condemning or looking down on me at all. That feels good.
I'm sorry that my post has and will bring pain to others. So much pain on this site.....but healing too.
I know this is good for me to examine and feel........just sooooo did not want a heavier burden. But that burden was there already.....:I just masked it......right?
Peace.
I'm driving in a fog right now......very shocking. Totally unexpected revelation. I've said for a while know that the shock of finding out my wife was having sex with another man is only rivaled by my own self-discoveries!
Your support is comforting....thank you.
This revelation IS "grounding" some remenent feelings and thoughts that just kinda remained floating in my head......so good will come of this.
But, damn........
Luckily I've had lots of practice praying for and recieving courage this past 21 months! I'll keep it up!!!
(I sometimes use humor to ease pressures)
I don't know (nor want to know) what all went on in the household of my XH but as adults I saw his alcoholic parents talking freely about sex in front of kids or grandkids or anybody. It was all tee-hee laugh-funny-funny. Well, I did not think it was appropriate to talk that way in front of even your ADULT children, let alone small children. I'm actually thankful my parents were the opposite of this. No sex talk and extremely modest.
[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 7:48 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]
Now as my journey unfolds I see that my use of porn coupled with possible CSA are some key components to adultery....I took away the "opportunity" component via my boundaries.
RA was such a real temptation for me......I still recall allowing this boundary to move a but at a hospitality function at a conference. Allowing a cute, flattering young girl to touch my gotee. Me playfully bantering with her. Went from aroused to sick as if someone flipped a switch. I went back to my room and cried. She was a nature girl.....my wife is too, I am turned that way as well.......so "hippie" is a bit in me too.
I was THAT close to adding a big burden to the pile of work I am tasked with. I regret even going as far as I did.....
So close to more self destruction......
God helped me then........I was a fool to get that close to temptation.
Peace
[This message edited by blakesteele at 7:51 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]
It's strange how you look at things differently as an adult.
My mum was always very open. I saw her naked and there was no problem. My dad on the other hand was always very careful we never saw him. He wouldn't even be seen in his underwear.
But looking back there was this thing he did every time I brought my school report home until I was aged around ten. Now don't get me wrong I am not saying it was abuse, it wasn't, it's just something I view as inappropriate now. I always got good reports but he would always pretend he was really angry I had done so badly, then he would put me over his knee like I was going to get my backside smacked, pull my pants down then tickled my bare behind with a hanky instead of spanking me. Then he would make a huge fuss over what a clever girl I was. Kind of a joke. The last time he did it I think my face was so red he realised I was too old for the 'game'.
I forgot all about it until my son started school. He also gets glowing reports and for his first one I told H we should pretend he had done badly and we were cross only to shout 'only kidding'! make a huge fuss of him and give him a treat as a reward. Then it hit me, that's what my dad should have done rather than tickle my bare bottom with a hanky.
It took H to tell me that even pretending he had done badly really wasn't a very nice 'joke' anyway. So now we just go straight to the making a fuss stage.
My dad was, however, brain damaged from a motorbike accident. Not so bad he couldn't work or lead a normal life but his boundaries with people were always off. That's why I can let this go. Nothing else ever happened.
It must be so hard to realise and remember this with an adult's perspective.
Sex and pornography can make changes in the brain, especially in the prepubescent rapidly maturing brain.
Selfishly I need to reach out
I agree with giving up your CSAT. That one was harmful and I am not sure where they got their training. Generally, CSAT's are much better qualified to deal with sexual abuse, but as they are all human, there will be different degrees as to which they are effective. And some may actually be harmful, like the one you had. I'm glad you are happy with your Christian counselor. If they are promoting healthy sexual behavior and attitudes between you and your partner, such as respect, fidelity, and true intimacy, then that will probably be more effective for you in your marriage regardless of their training/certifications.
Childhood sexual abuse is a bit different to deal with though than marital sexual problems (although in many, many cases, it is linked), and the repercussions that we deal with as adults that have been violated can be far reaching (and even though you weren't touched, you were violated).
It is not unusual to block certain memories for a while or to minimize them until our psyche is ready to deal with it. I am suspecting that you never thought of this as unusual or terrible, or may not have even remembered it, because you just weren't ready.
I don't think it is a big deal that you didn't mention this to your former CSAT as they weren't going to be effective for you anyway, but I would certainly mention it to any new therapist that you are trying to work through your childhood issues and the porn problem with, because it IS an important piece of the puzzle.
Thanks for the counter view......a view I think could hold water.
Honestly, this debate is why we intentionally sought out a Christian therapist. We feel like we have fine "man based therapy" (80 plus sessions)....and done man based marriage in our pre-A M. We are seeking solid principals for living and doing M.....believe that means God-based principals.
I'm only 15 hours into working through this sex talk event......bare with me. I am not debating anything......just trying to look at a long standing thought in a new light.
This can be another starting point at IC.
I'd rather be finding an ENDING point in IC!!!! 😀😃😃😆😃
(Humor as a defense again)
Thanks for your unfailing support.
Is this just hippie sex talk? Is this wrong? Inappropriate? Abuse?
(((blakesteele)))
I am going to be conservative here, so bear with me.
Wow - that is really hard to read. And yes, it was certainly grossly inappropriate and misguided. But was it done with improper intent? To me, given the absence of any sense of violation at the time on your part, or any sense of powerlessness, (your thinking it was "weird" doesn't seem traumatizing), then I might steer away from putting a label on it that makes you feel like a victim, particularly if there isn't evidence that it was done for their sexual pleasure. (Just reread your account and noted that they were aroused, which makes it more problematic.)
If one was of the camp that bodies are natural, etc. and that we should be factual with kids, then I can see where someone might ignorantly do this thinking they were doing the right thing. Now obviously, we know better in 2014, and I can't speak to what your parents thought. But, I would caution you against putting yourself into a victim mindset about it - I wouldn't assume your reaction then was wrong.
And, I actually would talk to your mom about it if she is still living, with guidance from a counselor.
But again, I am not sure about plumbing the depths on this, Blake. I am all for self-knowledge, but more important than putting a label on things that happened in the past, is dealing with yourself in the present - in my opinion.
[This message edited by bionicgal at 8:35 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]
Wow....solid insight and advice.
Just realized.......the way we found this Christian therapist is from a coworker. He and his wife are having intimacy troubles too. They use this therapist......because she is equipped to deal with CSA. His wife was a victim if CSA.
I keyed in on the Christian angle in choosing this therapist, but am really glad for her work in CSA area now.
She has helped this other couple improve their intimacy (he is a former porn user too and is one of my RL friends in my support group).
Therapists knows details oft use of porn.....have bared it all. She knows of my wife's affair too. It was through IC between my wife and therapist that we started down this CSA path.......my wife has some symptoms of this too....,but no apparent CSA in her past.
I will bring this up in our next session.
I have such a thirst to heal......to know better so that I can do better.
For me, God-based truths are the answer.
Thank you for your support.....been there for me almos since the beginning.
Just reread your account and noted that they were aroused, which makes it more problematic.)
(((Bionicgal))). This was an observation my wife JUST passed along to me this morning. Since Dad was semi-hard and they did stay in there room for a while after the talk (usually morning people up and about) there was a component if arousal.....or at least suspected arousal.
Being a victim.........
Something I detest. Boundaries helped me avoid RA....but so did my desire to NOT be a victim. I consciously weighed blaming my wife for a RA (victim attitude) or taking responsibility for my choices........I chose the latter.
Wife and I also talked about the journey I have traveled since DD. It's like I found a couple more pieces to my puzzle....but I have not started a new puzzle. Almost like I grabbed a snack from the kitchen and when I returned to the room I saw a couple pieces on the floor under the table I am building the puzzle on.
My Dad and Mom used porn. My Dad had an affair. There was some brokenness in their lives......influencing them to do what they do.
I am grateful for my new found awareness. I like the comment that perhaps my psyche has matured enough to actually deal with more of what I am called to deal with.
It's interesting that today we consider things abusive that wouldn't have even been abnormal in the past. People were often married in their late teens. At times in many cultures the entire family shared a room, parents changed, slept and even interacted sexually in front of the children. It wasn't treated as a dark secret.
At some point we as a society started setting somewhat arbitrary limits on what was acceptable and at what age things were appropriate. Sex became a dark secret, or something to only be discussed clinically. And then we decided that to break these taboos were emotionally damaging. I'm not sure I buy into it 100%.
Please don't think I'm a pedophile or supporting using, manipulation or molestation of children. The most extreme example of what I'm talking about is in California a 18 year old boy has sex with his 17 year old girlfriend and he can be convicted as a sex offender. 3 months latter she turns 18 and it's suddenly "ok". Doesn't make a lot of sense.
To bring this back to the Blake's story. Was it abuse? I really don't think it matters, beyond our compulsive need to label tings. What I think does matter is it sounds like your parents intent was to teach you that sex is natural and beautiful and not to be feared. What matters most of all is that it's made you feel uncomfortable and it's stuck with you all these years. Call it abuse or not, its something that needs to be addressed within you.
Married 6 years. Dating 10. Living together 8.
If a man took his time on earth to prove be for he died what on man's life could be worth I wonder what would happen to the world
- Harry Chapin
It was suggested my teenager was influencing my behavior most of my life, likely due to childhood trauma. We identified that event as abandonment I experienced after parents D. Dad disappeared completely from my life.....moving states away to his OW after my Mom D him.
Now I see this sex talk happened within 1-2 years of their D.
Might be two-fold trauma?
This time period is what my brothers and I refer jokingly to "our drug years".......we simply can't remember large blocks of our childhood then. We all think it odd but stopped short of further explanation.
Back to the visualization exercises....
Early into them I totally saw that teenager telling 12 yr old "your fine...get over it" or "I can make the pain stop....let me take care of it". Both if which prohibited healing and maturing.
That's where the 43 year old would step up and separate the teen from the boy....::comfort the boy, then the teen would chill.
Self-soothing was a goal of this.
Now I am adding 80 year old blakesteele....:::the vision if the man I envision me becoming.
I am healing and growing. I am accomplishing this by digging deep of course. But also through reaching outside of myself.....to God, my wife, RL friends, and ya'll on SI.
So grateful.....
The inappropriateness is certainly there, the threshold for abuse may or may not be met. However, the label is irrelevant. How it affected YOU, how YOU felt about it, clearly it was wrong.
I am a survivor of extreme CSA from both parents, along with many other forms of abuse as well. I worked with IC for many years, but the scars remain.
I was in my early 30s when I began thinking about what happened again. Up until that time, I thought I had a terrific relationship with my parents and sibs. All that changed when I asked them why they did what they did (rhetorical question I suppose, I KNOW it was for their gratification). My mother forced me to go to bed with my drunk father, because she did not want to go to him. As sick as it is, it only got worse after I confronted them.
So this information is something, in my opinion, that is important to look at in the context of your current situation in life. I hope you can avoid labeling it as a "hippie" thing. I think there is certainly an underlying pathology going on with them. I pray that you may find healing and peace. Take care.
E.
