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Him: Yes, I find fault in what OW has done. She helped me lie, cheat and betray you, and be a horrible version of me. I was looking for validation and admiration.

Me: What if we were divorced and not together anymore? Would you be ok with her contacting you or you contacting her?

Him: Well, if you were not with me anymore, and I was looking for that validation and admiration… you never know what happens in life.

Am I stupid? Am I asking too much if I expect him to want to avoid her for the rest of his life? Will this disappear when we start MC? 2x4’s welcome.

So he is saying that if you did divorce he would be in contact with her?

So is he white knuckling this, just NOT in contact with her because he can't be?

I would not be able to live like that. If he is secretly wishing he could be in contact with her but witholding?

So, what, ? Your marriage is at the mercy of his self control?

Not a bet I would make.

In the beginning, it's self control, but after a year? I would expect it to be a want to stay away.

You cannot guess when and if it will go away....but it would make me very uncomfortable.

Am I stupid? Am I asking too much if I expect him to want to avoid her for the rest of his life? Will this disappear when we start MC?

You are not stupid. You have been traumatized and are working through that trauma. For the record, Your husband is not stupid. He made some stupid choices but his is not stupid.

Are you asking too much to have him avoid her for the rest of his life? No. While is is M to you he absolutely needs to avoid her.

2x4 here.....you did ask him if he was D from you would he avoid her. He answered honestly that he likes being admired and validated.....and who doesn't? We were not designed to be an island unto ourselves. The question is a bit loaded.

I don't know your sitch. Is the OW married or single? If she is married he would do well to think about how he chooses to interact with her. M or D'ed.....he needs to figure out why he was able to choose as he did. If the OW is married, he needs to ALSO look into why she was "available" as a choice for him.

I don't think I am splitting hairs here. My wife choose a married man father if 5 to have an affair with. There is a reason this type of man was chosen over a pool boy. His status fits into this puzzle. HE specifically doesn't, as affairs are selfishly about the individual, but there are reasons why my wife chose as she did.

He needs to figure this out for himself. I pray he finds the courage to really look inside....and desire to change patterns. Long standing patterns that resulted in the fruit of adultery being picked. These patterns often start long before the AP is met and before the A starts.

MC helps.....IC needs to come first. Period.

We did MC first....the deceit and intentionality of my wife's actions during this time added insult to injury. She had so turned away from our M (again, even before her A) that she was not a team player. She acted the part well, but it was an act. My own brokenness allowed me.....urges me to believe her.

IMHO.....DD marks the start of individual solo journeys......MC comes later.

80+ sessions thus far.....helped tremendously.....but there are no healthy shortcuts.

God is with us all.

I think both blakesteele and karmahappens are right...

Realisticly, he probably would still talk to her if you did D. He would at that point have no reason not too. At least he gave you an honest answer. The better question is what karma asked. Does he still want to talk to her even though he knows the pain it has caused you? Is he just not talking to her because you asked, or because hes learned what a douche he was for doing it in the first place...

and I was looking for that validation and admiration

Does he not see that the use and abuse of OW is questionable then or in the future?

[This message edited by Edie at 10:29 AM, May 4th (Sunday)]

AmberDust, not a 2x4, but if you divorce, your FWH is free to contact whomever he chooses. You are, too. But you are NOT wrong in expecting him to avoid her now. As long as he is married to you, NC with OW is a non-negotiable rule that he must obey. If he had said that he pines for OW every day and finds NC unbearable while trying to R, then you'd have good reason to be upset. But he doesn't seem to feel that way. You asked a hypothetical question, and as Blakesteele said, he answered honestly.

Look at his actions, AmberDust--they are what count. You cannot read his mind or control his thoughts. And it sounds as though his thoughts about OW are mostly negative, anyway. Try not to get caught up in what-ifs.

If my FWH and I ever divorced, it would surprise me if he did not contact OW; they had a deep emotional bond. I don't know what he thinks of her now, and I don't ask. His actions are what tell me that he's committed to R, our M, and me. That's what I care about.

Edie sharpens a good point regarding use and abuse of others to satisfy needs....that is unhealthy regardless of marital status.

All sin is selfish.....even if done in the company of others.

My wife's affair, like most others, was about using others......I have read enough books and been in enough professional therapy sessions to pretty confidently state that adultery is possibly among the most singularly selfish act a person can choose. Lots of deception is required. First and foremost those engaged in adultery deceive themselves.....they do this by acting like they are not selfish, that they really care about the AP. This allows them to chose adultery.

The reaching out to others as a built in need refers to healthy, interdependent ways......not theses destructive ways.

Humbly.....I admit I didn't know how to do this interdependent relationship either. I had to search inside me, figure out my brokenness and work on my own whys.

I think that journey is within us all.

A WS has the additional task of finding out why adultery was a choice for them.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 11:47 AM, May 4th (Sunday)]

I get where you are coming from. If your H is truly healing and looking inward, he shouldn't want someone like the OW in his life. He should want authentic relationships with authentic people.

I would hope that my H would answer this question as above. I may just ask him!

The OW was his first crush. He cheated with her while engaged to his first wife.

A few years ago she contacted him and they had their PA.

She encouraged him to leave me. I threw him out and took him back.

He broke NC and then their EA affair started- during a tumultous period in our marriage when we weren’t able to connect and he was looking for admiration and someone to adore him. She was peace when we were fighting. Admiration. He is “da bomb”. She is his fan and has declared herself his soulmate. She wanted him to leave me but he wouldn’t. He still doesn’t see her manipulation, though. I know she is still pining for him. He knows it too. So I guess he knows he can always turn to her when life gets tough for him.

He was in IC for the first time in his life. I forced him to. We will be starting MC.

Personally, I can’t figure out why anyone would want to ever be in the presence of a person that was obviously not your friend. She helped you become a terrible person. Why would you ever want to be with them again- I guess to find that admiration again?

But to me, it feels like another stab in the back. I wanted him to tell me that whatever happens, out of respect for me, for not wanting our kids around the person that tried to destroy his marriage, he would never want to be around her anymore, since he now figured out she is bad news.

Apparently he can forgive her anything. But what about having a backbone?

Currently, my H maintains NC and is committed to our marriage. He doesn’t even want to discuss this hypothetical situation. I just don’t understand why he would want to compromise himself again when I’m out of the picture. Apparently after a divorce his principles are out of the window and the things he now says he believes that are wrong, aren’t wrong anymore?

It sounds like OW is your WH's enabler. She enables him to be as selfish and hurtful as he wants to be while still worshiping the ground he walks on. Talk about a toxic relationship. One where he never has to grow up.

It sounds like he is still in the fog and still has a lot of issues to deal with. While he might find fault in what OW helped him do, he has yet to realize just how toxic she is to his life (not just his marriage).

Unfortunately, this is something that he will have to come to realize on his own (if he ever truly does). Sometimes hearing the truth from the WS is hard to take, especially when it runs against the grain of what is best for them and you. Hopefully, this will change as he works on his issues in IC and MC. I would be very blunt with him about how much of a problem it is that he is still open to the possibility of a relationship with OW under any circumstance.

I personally would never want to have contact with someone who helped me become my WORST self. I would not want to be around the type of person who aids in bringing suffering into this world. I would not want to have someone in my life that didn't respect proper boundaries.

Not even for validation, admiration or ego kibbles. What does admiration from a morally bankrupt person really mean anyway?

I personally would never want to have contact with someone who helped me become my WORST self.

Right here!!!!

He IS in the fog I mean WTH???

Speaking as a WS, if my AP and I were the last two ppl alive and the entire human race rested on us procreating I would kill myself first. My loyalty starts and ends with my husband but also with myself and I would rather die than be with the accomplice that helped my stab someone in the back.

I mean why? Just why?

And if he's saying he needs validation he needs a lot more work done with his goggles off.

As a BS I would have a really hard time with this.

Hugs honey!!'

My loyalty starts and ends with my husband but also with myself and I would rather die than be with the accomplice that helped my stab someone in the back.

Rachel, this is exactly what I wanted to hear from him.

My husband is no longer in IC. He figured out his FOO issues and was "fired" by his counselor.

He IS in the fog I mean WTH???

And if he's saying he needs validation he needs a lot more work done with his goggles off.

Would you mind giving me some pointers? I want to be able to have more arguments than the "loyalty" argument I already gave him.

Him: I want admiration, validation, admiration, validation even though i don't deserve it. It's all about me, me, me. It's not my fault I strayed, but the OW drove me to it... Yes! It's her fault, not mine since she gave me validation. Despite the fact that i've hurt you immensely and damaged our relationship for good, I still want you to admire and validate me.

When is he going to think of what you want?

You're not stupid for wanting her completely out of contact.

Watch out for your man. It doesn't sound like he's sincerely repentant

It's not my fault I strayed, but the OW drove me to it...

It doesn’t seem like he feels that way. He acknowledges he broke NC and takes responsibility for his actions. He is trying to help me heal.

He doesn’t “hate” her with a vengeance like I do. He says he knows what she did was wrong, but he doesn’t hate her. He knows she tried to wreck our marriage. When pressed, he can come up with one or two examples of how she tried to get him to leave me. She was his “dumpster”, not in a physical sense, but as a way for him to talk about daily stuff that he couldn’t talk to me about because I was too depressed after DD1 and he couldn’t reach me. And because she had declared herself his twin flame, there was no end to the admiration. I know it was part of her scheme, but he still doesn’t get it, I think- I guess because to him, it was all about him. So in a way I understand he doesn’t really know things about her or what she said. He knows a lot of what he told her, but not the other way around. She simply wasn’t interesting to him and he never wanted to leave me.

After DD1 I kicked him out and he slept at a hotel. She wanted to move in with him as soon as possible. I told him I’d not let him see our small kids for a while. His behavior on DD was totally wacko and since he had told me she had encouraged him to leave his wife and kids, she was not someone I wanted around them. She told him the kids would be fine with it- they’re flexible and won’t mind not seeing you for a while. In my opinion, seeing her again tells her you are ok with that. Tells her you are ok with her lack of respect for your children. And that like her, you had no respect for me or the kids.