"You can survive this. Talk to others that have"

LovelyDaffodils posted 5/9/2014 08:54 AM

NOW, I get remorse?! NOW, I get answers I'm not even sure I want?! NOW, I get whatever it takes to prove he wants to help me heal?! WTF!!!
I had done 180 and was totally good with it being over. So now.... He finally gets it. But really I think it's too late.
He finally decides he will get educated on what I need, be remorseful and be transparent, etc. I'm not sure it's enough or even matters.
He finally realized he shouldn't have listened to co workers that said "deny, deny, deny". Now gravitates toward those with healthy views of M.
So yay! he finally get's it. I can have my final dday, he will tell all whenever I am ready and able to hear it.
Thing is, I'm not sure I want to and I just feel like quitting before going through that pain. He wasted my willingness to try for 4 months.
I'm working on me now and I don't multitask very well.

So I'm stuck with 2 questions. 1 Is it really real? Did he really get it just like that?
2 If it is real, do I want to try again, knowing there is more painful truth that needs to come out. Truth I may not be able to handle.

MovingUpward posted 5/9/2014 09:23 AM

I think that it is wise to question the reality of it. Trustworthiness has not been a character trait of his as of late. One needs to question the motive. Is he doing this for you? Him? Or both of you? The answer will be the clue on if it will work.

As for the second question, that is one that you'll have to ponder. Each of us would draw our own conclusions on if it is worthwhile.

LovelyDaffodils posted 5/9/2014 09:53 AM

From our talks, it seems like he wants to do it for us, but may finally see he needs to work on himself.
He finally has read a bit on SI. I read to him the everything a WS needs to know post. I had sent that to him over a month ago and he ignored it. So this week he did actually ask me to sit down and go over it together. But, now it's like he is reading a script, so almost doesn't seem genuine. Admittedly, he has never been one to have his own words for his feelings, so I see how he would repeat what he has read.

We talked about IC for him. He's very interested in getting to his why.

One thing that clicked in his mind was listening to the recording he made at work. It was of him berating someone under him for lying and telling that person that they could work out whatever the truth was, but if they found out he lied, things would be worse. He actually said when he heard the same words I have said to him coming out of his mouth to someone else, he realized what a douche he was. That led to him seeing the latest lies he told me, and the domino (his word) effect of everything going back through the past. And seeing more and more douchiness (his word again)on his part. How actually juvenile he acted. A huge admission for him.
So yeah, it's good for him. But I'm not so sure it does anything for me at this point.

I need to process it. And it's painful. I guess for now I move out of D and S and back to general.
But will continue with 180 as it still is what I need to do for me.

MovingUpward posted 5/9/2014 09:57 AM

And watch his actions. If he isn't moving forward to fix this issue then he isn't invested in his idea of proving to you he wants to help you heal.

Good luck to you.

sparkysable posted 5/9/2014 10:23 AM

1 Is it really real? Did he really get it just like that?

No

2 If it is real, do I want to try again, knowing there is more painful truth that needs to come out.

My opinion, is do not try again with him. Sometimes I feel like with my XWH, and the many WS's I see here on SI, is they "suddenly see the light and are so sorry and want to spend the rest of their lives making it up to the BS" is because the OW/OM dumps them, and they are suddenly faced with homelessness, divorce, etc.

However, in my own instance, and many here on SI, they DO go on to do it again. You don't want to be back here, years later, because you took him back, and low and behold, he cheated again. Start your healing now and you will be that much further ahead in a few years. Take him back, he will do it again, and it will hurt so much worse. Get it over with now. He is just not worth it.

norabird posted 5/9/2014 13:39 PM

Do stay with the 180. It is so hard when they start showing what you wanted all along...but after they've been such an ass for so long, it's wise not to trust them yet either. Remember, actions not words.

((((LovelyDaffodils)))

You deserve someone wonderful who is all in and committed. Remember that and stay focused on YOU. I hope he follows through but there needs to be a LOT of follow-through.

StrongAlone posted 5/9/2014 13:47 PM

It's hard to be in limbo, much harder than once you've decided it's over, I don't envy your position. I think there is such a thing as it's too late to make things right but you have to decide that for yourself. Just sit with it for a while, you don't have to make any decisions until your ready. I hope you can find peace.

IrishLass518 posted 5/9/2014 14:46 PM

My thoughts? I would sit down with him and say "Give me the whole truth, all of it. If you lie , I'll walk away immediately. After I have heard the whole truth, I will take some time to think about whether I want to R with you."
If he wants to R he can earn it at this point with honesty. You don't lose either way and you discover what you can and can't tolerate or live with. You also discover how serious he is about R.

lovehonorcherish posted 5/9/2014 15:01 PM

I've experienced this several times in the last year of false R. Each and every time I would make a move in the direction of divorce my stbxh would promise me the world. He would get counseling, he would "fix" his problems, he would swear to be more attentive, loving and involved in our marriage. And the whole time he was involved with the AP. H was a cake eater...he wanted his loving, supportive wife who kept a beautiful home and he wanted his dirty, filthy skank on the side. He said and did whatever he needed to do to make sure he got what he wanted. Not once did he give a single thought to what he was doing to me or to our family and friends. I think that actions truly speak louder than words...our WS's can say whatever they want to say but can they back those words up with positive actions? If the answer is yes in your case then maybe your H is truly sincere about "getting" it. If the answer is no...continue with 180 and keep your distance. JMO

SBB posted 5/9/2014 17:52 PM

But, now it's like he is reading a script, so almost doesn't seem genuine.

This was my experience. SI taught him what he should be saying and it 'worked' for most of our 3m False R - unfortunately for him his pretty words and faux remorse didn't hide his ugly actions.

My advice is to stick to the 180 - if he has true remorse it won't matter what you do and it won't be contingent on R. True Remorse is about him and his quest for healing, NOT R.

I would proceed as if you aren't reconciling - continue the separation and divorce process. Use this phase (if that is what it is which I expect is the case) to get him to agree to a fair and equitable settlement and custody/visitation/CS arrangement. That way you're protected whether the remorse is real or not.

I'd do it until I saw consistent and unwavering actions on his part (not spoon fed by you but proactive actions) that showed he was truly invested in this.

There is no venom in true remorse - if he baulks at any if this then you know he is only looking out for himself and it isn't really remorse but fear/regret and not wanting things to change.

If you allow the fear/regret to suck you in nothing WILL change - you'll go back to the same M you were in before, cheating and all. You didn't want that.

What I wish someone had said to me when I was where you are now is do not be afraid of pissing him off or hurting his feelings. Many of my decisions were of the 'don't rock the boat' and 'don't make R too hard an option for him' - R is damn hard, better he gets that in the beginning. If he falters at the first hurdle then he ain't R material anyway. Better to know it sooner rather than later.

As long as your intention isn't just to piss him off or hurt his feelings then you focus on and do what you need to do to heal and recover from this. Assume R won't happen or won't work and protect yourself and your future.

If by some miracle R does happen and it does work you're still protected and haven't gone into it from a place of fear of change.

bent44 posted 5/9/2014 23:32 PM

You can't unscramble the eggs.

Question is: can you tolerate them scrambled?

Me, I ended up at no. There's not a fancy enough omelette to change my mind.

We are all different, though. Honor your gut, and give it time. His actions, not his words, will be tantamount.

BTW, my xWS farted around with remorse 2 years after dday. I fully appreciate the anger in your post!

hexed posted 5/10/2014 06:37 AM

yeah its a total mindfuck when they do this. my X did this repeatedly. tears and everything. "i will do whatever you want!!"

in the end he didn't/couldn't do what I wanted. I gave him several chances. He would occasionally pull this stunt for years after

Each time, I told him I wanted 30 days no contact with OW before I would consider trying to move forward. Then I wanted 90 days sober and MC. I was never one that needed questions answered. I had super sleuthed him to the point of no secrets.

One time we started MC about a week after one of these dramas. He went on a date w/OW right after MC. I could go on and on with these stories.

In the end, its not what they say, its what they do. If you are still open to considering R. Tell him to show you. His words are meaningless. He needs to show you and he needs to figure out how mostly by himself. Back to the 180. Let him demonstrate his remorse.

LovelyDaffodils posted 5/10/2014 19:07 PM

Sorry to disappear. Been busy and watching.
A few points.
At this time, he has a huge work project coming to a head this coming week. He is working all this weekend. So I am not pushing anything until that is over. Meanwhile I have IC on Tuesday.

He has since Dday been better at being a husband. Communicating, nicer, complimenting me, etc.
Except about anything to do with the A and being open. So, typical unremorseful WH.

Anything I know, I have found on my own. Resulting in me going 180. Which stopped him from going to MC and started me going by myself.

Last confrontation was met with lies. That was it for me as it was over something that he did since Dday.

I know there is more, I have partial proof-names/numbers of questionable other women.

My main issue is, even if his actions show he can do it, I don't know if I can.
Meaning, if I want R, He has to tell all and tbh, I think I would rather D than hear any more painful truths.

Some things he has done-if I were single and I met someone that did those things, I would next them in a heartbeat. Not interested in that guy.
I told him so the other night along with a few other admissions coming from wine induced strength. Awful scene and terribly unhealthy, but I didn't say anything that didn't need saying.
He did look after me and cover for me- doing the evening chores, making dinner, while I slept it off. Unfortunately I may have partially revealed some of my sources/tricks

So yeah, I'm sitting with it probably until next weekend. Then I need to decide if we have a sit down for full disclosure (that I know will hurt like hell) or I just keep on the D path.
If he does tell all, of course it must be complete with pw, (which he changed when I said D week or so ago)and full access to his computer and phone. I will do more snooping. Anytime I want to look, it will be right there in front of him and he must accept.
Even then, will I still suspect he is leaving something out?
Do I really want to spend the rest of my life constantly checking up? Not a new hobby I have an interest in continuing with.

Not too concerned about being a quitter at this point. I gave 4 plus months to it and he shit on that.
As a kid, my Mom's answer when we would say it hurts when I xyz, was "well, stop doing that"
My Mom was usually right.

phmh posted 5/11/2014 09:55 AM

Being the marriage police sounds like an exhausting and frustrating way to live.

Good luck with your decision. Remember that you are the parent of your future self. He's shown you who he is -- how upset with yourself will you be if you attempt R and find out a year, 5 years, 10 years later that you've wasted even more of your life on a cheater? (Which is a very probable outcome. People pretty much don't change who they are. Do some reading on behavior/personality traits/etc. It's fascinating.)

Huge hugs. I know it's so tough (my cheater also pulled this play out of the cheater's handbook and begged me to take him back. I know how tough it is.)

Some things he has done-if I were single and I met someone that did those things, I would next them in a heartbeat.

To me, your above quote is very telling. Do some reading on sunk costs. It's what keeps people hanging on to terrible financial investments, and, way too frequently, also terrible relationships.

LovelyDaffodils posted 5/11/2014 11:16 AM

I told him months ago how I felt I have wasted my life in this M. I grieved over that lost time.
He brought that up the other day saying he worries the next 5-10+ years will be wasted if we D and I am not in his life. Hmmm...

I have done a lot of reading on personality disorders and the like. I swear, I think a huge time saver for me would be to have him go through a phyche evaluation.

He is doing some work on himself. Hopefully the motives are the right ones. I don't want or expect him to see things "my way". Just the "best way" for him to cope with his issues. He needs IC for sure.

heartbroken_kk posted 5/11/2014 11:52 AM

I would recommend you not let him go through disclosure without a therapist present. If he is willing to spend a week writing out a timeline and then working with a therapist on how to deliver it to you then I would do it.

Then I would let him know that you are looking at him in a new light and if he thinks "doing most of the right moves" is going to keep his marriage intact he is wrong. What you will be looking at is whether his actions and behaviors show you a man who has taken a sincere interest in self improvement to become a person of integrity. If he goes to IC. If he stops all lying in all areas of his life. If he stops being unreliable and making excuses. You need to know he has learned he is not the man he ought to be and he wants to grow up finally.

If he lashes out at your insecurities and complains about snooping even once I would be done. He gets not one single free pass.

A few weeks/ months will be enough time to see if he is sincere. And even if it feels like a waste in the end you will be sble to say you tried to allow him time to work it through. Either it really is an epiphany or its not. You will find out.

LovelyDaffodils posted 5/11/2014 23:41 PM

Thank you. I think at the C is probably going to prove the best way to do full disclosure. If nothing else, to keep me from going over the edge. I think I will bring this up with WH and with the C.
But, it limits the time to get all out and I just want it over with all at once. So yeah, probably have to have a timeline in place ahead of time.

I have acknowledged to him what a breakthrough he has had even seeing that this is really all his issue and his doing.

The transparency, before full disclosure, I have not really pressed. No sense at this point for me to look through his stuff before he has had the chance to give the info on his own. I'm not asking any questions about the As. Like I said, I'm not sure I want to know unless I'm really ready to commit to R.

I'm thinking my answer is this. We schedule a time or date that we will do this work. Work out something with IC/MC so we know when it will be happening.
While waiting for that, we set some sort of ground rules as to daily interaction and communicate expectations so neither of us misinterprets where we stand at this point. I want to avoid assumptions in either direction. I need that to at least give me some sort of mental clarity.

Me staying detached is good for me as in not being emotional about the A and not obsessing and triggering. But, it also has pretty much crushed any loving feelings toward him. That quite possibly is only temporary as a self defense at this point-a topic for IC I guess.

With his pressures at work, I have tried to get him to keep things in perspective. He's acting the victim pretty hard. So I do get that I need to pay attention to what is going on in other areas of his life. Or more his reactions to that.
That actually can be more telling as to how genuine he really is. Meaning he can say all the right things about our relationship, but it has to reach into all areas.

I have kept things pretty peaceful and been easy to get along with. So, any rudeness/lashing out on his part will not be tolerated.

And so another day has ended. Bring on tomorrow...

PhantomLimb posted 5/12/2014 09:59 AM

Lovely, I have a question that I hope you don't mind and is based on my own experience.

When my X and I were in R (which ultimately proved to be a false R), he also had a lot going on at work and, because of this, I found myself naturally tip-toeing around a bit on my R demands and trying to be patient. For example, initially I wanted him to take a leave from work to show me his commitment and he agreed-- but then I chickened out and told him he could keep working and I didn't want to disrupt his job. Then I demanded MC and IC, but he was only making appointments bi-weekly, which was really him doing the bare minimum. Etc etc etc.

Several months after our S/D I looked back at this and thought that it was symptomatic of other problems in our relationship-- namely that WH was a workaholic and I had been trained to always let his work come first. This also signaled to me other areas in our life together where I basically accepted less than I deserved... routinely. I learned not to make certain demands, because I knew they would be laughed off or ignored. I was like a frog in boiling water. By the time he had his A, I can look back now and see how much I really had allowed myself to be walked over.

I have found it curious to see you mention his work several times in your posts. Is it possible you have a similar dynamic?

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 10:00 AM, May 12th (Monday)]

LovelyDaffodils posted 5/27/2014 11:40 AM

PL, sorry I just came back to this. The work issue was a temporary thing-in that there was this huge thing to get through. And now he does need to leave for a couple of weeks starting this weekend. But, there is no way around it, it's not a choice he can make if he wanted to. We both hate it. There is time around work, he just wastes it-see below.

An update. We have had 2 4 day weekends in a row. Middle of the first one I told him I was ready for the full disclosure discussion. My IC canceled my appointment for the week in between, so we decided we would go it on our own at the beginning of the weekend. Well, I had been to the dentist for a procedure and was having some pain and dealing with that. But did mention our talk. Had to take pain meds, but in my mind they put me in a calmer state to have a talk. Apparently he didn't see it that way and ignored the whole thing. So now he leaves in 5 days for 2 weeks.

I'm just sick of him still finding any reason he can to put it off (his Mom is really sick now too) and now realize it will never happen. And, I just know that it won't be full truth anyway. I suspect he has taken his activities underground anyway.

It's all just nonsense and just dragging me down. Him saying it aint over til it's over, leaving me the choice. But he isn't really giving me anything to make me choose staying. I can't move forward with him until we make some progress on this A stuff. Anything else he does right just seems to be more cover up.

jjct posted 5/27/2014 13:10 PM

So why not just 'move forward' with yourself & stick to the D plan?
There are little snippets in your posts that suggest your gut knows he's faking it
- reading from a script
- he worries the next 5-10+ years will be wasted if we D and I am not in his life. (It's about him, isn't it?)
- educate himself? Come on, what does a truly remorseful person do?
- He's acting the victim pretty hard

I dunno. It worries me for you.
Could you be open to the idea of doing this after the D? (after you're protected)?

I'm sorry Daffodils, it all seems like a desperate show. Not real.
I just wish for your safety and protection.