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Newest Member: jaxonraine (61774)

User Topic: What is my Moral Responsibility?
♀ 37086
Member # 37086
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, some of you may remember me. A little background for those that are new here or do not remember me. I was married to a narcissistic , sociopathic, pedophile that is now serving time for abusing my son. His trial was two years ago.

I have been divorced for 6 years. But due to the instability of my son and the trial for my ex, dating was the last thing on my mind. But, after some encouragement from my friend, I signed up for OLD over a year ago. I met some nice guys, no creepers, but no connections until I met "Billy" last June.

Billy was recently divorced. Billy had very recently(as in a few days) moved to my city from out of state. He knew no one. He clearly stated that he was just looking for friends to help him acclimate to his new city. So, I sent him a message. He responded. We exchanged a few messages, then on to phone conversations, then we met. I went to the hotel to pick him up for our first meeting over coffee. When he opened the door (even though I had seen his photo) my first thought was,"I am toast" but I kept it under wraps. We then went on the hunt for an apartment for him. At the coffee shop, we zeroed in on areas for the apartment search. After several hours of apartment hunting, we shifted gears and I showed him some highlights of the city. We enjoyed a nice dinner. We got along very well, and really hit it off. Good communication, similar sense of humor, etc. We ended the day by making out.

For the next week, I would spend time every morning looking for apartments on Craigslist. I would email him the link and he would check them out. After a week, he rented an apartment. He had issues with getting his furniture and personal belongings delivered, and was in his apartment for over a month and still did not have his things. So due to my extensive experience in the legal world, I wrote an email to the company and demanded delivery. He had his things within the week.

During the time he did not have his personal items, I brought over cooking items, an air mattress,sheets, towels, etc etc. I wanted to make his living experience as good as it could be under the circumstances. He was forever telling me that I was an "angel", that he was telling people of my kindness and how easy I had made his transition.

He would text me first thing in the morning, during the day, and last thing at night. We talked everyday, and I saw him several times a week. I felt a little smothered, but I felt he was so clingy because he knew no one but me.

The first red flag showed up when his belonging were delivered. I live 30 minutes away from his apartment. It was a Saturday, and I was home catching up on my own chores. I sent a text as to how the move was going, and clearly he was distressed. he asked me to come, so I dropped everything and went to assist him. When I arrived, he was overwhelmed. I was struck by how few belonging he had, but still there were several boxes. I spent the next several hours unpacking his things, washing the dishes, organizing the kitchen, etc, etc. I unpacked all but two boxes which he unpacked at a snails pace. It is now nearly 10 pm, and I am starved. He suggested we get take-out. Unfortunately, most places were closed. However, a pizza place was open so we went in to order. He asked me what type of pizza I wanted, he ordered, and I said,"Oh, and add on one of those cinnamon pizzas too!" To which Billy turned to me and said,"Are you paying?' Are you serious? It was $4.99. When I replied,"No". He said, "Well then don't be ordering things you are not paying for." I was stunned. Yet, I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

The next few months were yo-yoing back and forth. I would tire of his bullshit, leave, and then he would lure me back. There was drama at Christmas(his gift was 3 cashmere sweaters from Goodwill. All sized XS or S, I wear a large. When he noted I noticed the size, he said,"Well, you wanted to lose weight." (Yes, I wanted to get in better shape, but I am not obese but I am busty. The odds of me wearing an XS or S are slim to none) and New year's. It was exhausting. Billy would never want to discuss things, but rather just move on from where we are.

Finally, a week before Valentine's Day, and two weeks before my birthday, I had been to his house to make a VERY nice dinner. Shortly after dinner, he picked yet another fight. I paused, left the room, and contemplated what I wanted to do. I am not a fighter. I don't scream. I very rarely get mad. But I knew I could no longer tolerate his behavior. So I calmly gathered up my things, and left his apartment. I have not been back.

Did I hear from him on Valentine's day? Nope. Did I hear from him on my birthday? Nope. But, two weeks after my birthday and 6 days before his birthday, He called. I answered. He wished me a happy belated birthday. He then went on to "casually" mention that he would be 56 on Tuesday. I engaged in conversation, but he did not ask to see me. I realized after i hung up the phone that his call was to "remind" me of his birthday with hopes that I would honor him in some way. I did not. I did not call. I did not text. I did not send a card nor go by his place. Nothing. Nada. The next morning he called when I was in the shower. He left a message regarding his birthday. he was clearly miffed.

So that was in March. He still had a few of my things so I met him at a neutral spot in April to retrieve them.

Billy has had a music business for over twenty years. He mentioned throughout our relationship that he wanted to update his logo. Before I get into that, I should also mention that Billy always had "projects" for me. Assemble furniture, fix his glasses, sew on a button, etc. So he had asked me if I could create a new logo, and get his business going. Despite the fact that I consider myself to be quite creative, I said I didn't have a clue as to how to go about that. Perhaps he should find a graphic artist.

Well, during our break in January, he went to a meet up, and low and behold, he met a graphic artist. In April, he posted a new logo on Facebook. I am fairly well versed in the artist community here, and know the part of town that she lives in. Billy LOVES modern architecture, and that is where she lives. His lease is up on July 1st, and I would not be surprised if he moved in with her.

So, here is my dilemma. Do I give miss graphic artist an anonymous heads up to proceed with caution? Yes, I know most will say to MMOB. But, I will tell you I am really conflicted about this. Yes, my friends told me throughout my relationship with Billy that he was a user. I would not listen. So she may not listen either. But, here is why I am conflicted. I did not see who my ex was. Yet, I was aware that others knew something that I did not. When he lost his first job(he was a physician), I knew something was up, but no one was talking. He could not find a job in the state we were in, so we were forced to move. Do you have any idea how easy it was for most physicians to find at job at that time? EASY. So we moved to an adjoining state. Four years later, he is fired again. NO ONE WAS TALKING. But, yet again, he could not find a job so we had to move out of state. Years later, when my ex was arrested and convicted for sexually assaulting my son, it was in the local paper. One posted comment on line stated that she was a nurse, and that she was sure other victims would be coming forward. Ugh. I now know that at the very least my ex was having affairs with patients. The fact is, I was looking for concrete proof of his affairs throughout our marriage as he always denied affairs. When I had proof, I ended the marriage. If someone had shed some light on that for me, I would not have left the place I loved to live. There is a good chance my son would not have been repeated raped by his father as he would not have been living in the same house with his father. My ex would have had to move out of state for employment, and I would be miles away raising my children. It breaks my heart that possibly because everyone minded their own business, our lives were turned upside down.

So do I give miss graphic artist a heads up? It appears she owns her very nice, very expensive, modern town home. My boss let a woman move in with him. I asked if he was letting her pay part of the mortgage. He replied,"Absolutely not! I did my research and in this state, if I took money earmarked for the mortgage, and we broke up, she could state claim to part of the house." Billy moved in with a woman(in her house) a year after his first marriage ended. When they divorced, the house was under water so he did not go after proceeds. BUT HE KNEW THERE WAS NO EQUITY.

So, if you are still with me, what would you do? What should I do? AS I stated, I have figured out a way to contact her anonymously.

I do appreciate anyone who to not only took the time to read this, but to give me some feedback.

I just want to clarify that I DO NOT want this man back. This is not about him, but rather, a more than likely victim.

I recognize I cannot protect the world from him. But, in this case, I see the writing on the wall...

Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Rocky Mountains
Sad in AZ
♀ 24239
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can you say people pleaser/co-dependent/KISA...?

Seriously. Stop. Just stop. You don't need to warn anyone. What you need to do is some self-interrogation to find out why you let him treat you like this before you move on to someone else. Work on yourself and don't worry about anyone except your child. This should be a loud and clear warning for you.

You are important and you matter. Your feelings matter. Your voice matters. Your story matters. Your life matters. Always.

Me: FBS (no longer betrayed nor a spouse)-62
Him: WXH-62
D-day: 2007 (two years before finding SI)
S: 6/2010; D: 3/2011

Posts: 25302 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Arizona
♀ 32616
Member # 32616
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sounds like your heart is in the right place, but this is the sort of lesson people have to learn on their own, as you have. He moved on quickly when you stood up for yourself, consider it a lesson learned, and continue to stand up for your interests moving forward.

“Happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue.” ― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

Posts: 3640 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: The Valley of the Sun
♀ 30024
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, I am torn Want. OTOH, I agree that this isn't your concern. However, I to would want to do a "good deed" and at least give fair warning. The chances of her heeding the warning from an anonymous source is slim, imo. But, I would want to warn her and tell her what your boss found out about accepting money towards the mortgage. It seems like Billy would be just that type of dude to try to get something from the townhome if they broke up. *shrug* Clear as mud, huh?

BW (me) & FWH both over half a century; married several decades; children
d-day 3/10; LTA (7 years?)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak." ~ Homer Simpson

Posts: 13445 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
♀ 37933
Member # 37933
Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Agree with Sad. You cannot stop coda and you yourself are showing HIGH coda on 10 by still needing to save someone, anyone, now that he is gone.

Reading your situation with your ex the doctor I see you as being in the driver's seat willingly taking your hands off the wheel. You talk about how you looked for proof of his affairs, but because nobody said anything you stayed. Stop blaming other people. You do not need proof of an affair to file for divorce.

fwiw when I saw a few things odd on our laptop, including IM with an erased history and when I got strange looks at his work party, I knew. I never used a VAR or gathered hard proof, in my state it would not have earned me a penny and I don't need it to take the key off his keyring. I asked him to gather whatever personal belongings he needed. I knew.

What do you think proof or the backing of someone else will do? For a kisa/coda it just goads them on with a "you and me against the world"
When you are not coda, your own instincts are all you need. The fact that your first date involved finding him an apartment should have been a huge NO. a date is when you go out to eat together, not help a man find affordable housing.

Have you ever talked with a counselor over what appropriate boundaries are? I went through this with my therapist. Mine pretty much sucked.

It was nobody's job to save you. Or caretake you. And it is not your job to do it for anyone else except your son.

My intention is not to be harsh or mean but your boundaries practically bleed. This will attract predators.

Posts: 421 | Registered: Dec 2012
♀ 37086
Member # 37086
Default  Posted: 5:47 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, Sad in AZ. But I respectfully disagree. Your harsh assessment of me is unwarranted. I am no shrinking violet. I have fought more brutal battles in Court as a Pro Se, with social services, child/family investigators, police departments, and ultimately, the DA's office, than anyone I have ever met. I was not out buying Billy new things but rather sharing what I had so he could get by. I could empathize with his situation. Should I have left at that first red flag? Absolutely. Should I have never gone back? Absolutely. Does that mean that I live my life as a co-dependent, a people pleaser, or KISA? No. Did I get caught up in it? Yes. But to me the good news is that I exited the situation. I held my ground at Christmas. I held my ground at New Years. I held my ground after my birthday. I did learn. And yes, I have analyzed to death why I allowed him to be abusive.

I posted because I was truly conflicted. And, as I stated, I was conflicted because other people's silence brought me pain. My pain never goes away. We(my kids and I) have moved on, but that pain will always exist deep in us. It is not debilitating, but exists.

Is silence always the best? When is it appropriate to share knowledge? These were the questions I was grappling with.

Thanks, Crescita. Yes, I do believe my heart was in the right place. I will not contact her. I will let her learn the hard way, and yes, I hope the lesson is not too painful for her.

Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Rocky Mountains
♀ 37086
Member # 37086
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, Sister Milkshake...clear as mud is correct.

Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Rocky Mountains
♀ 37086
Member # 37086
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, June 6th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, absolut. Yes, I have talked to my therapist. We both agreed that my boundaries could have been better in this situation. However, we both agreed that that is not my typical response.

To be clear, it was not a first date. In fact, as I stated, he clearly wrote he was looking for friends. My whole plan was to help him look for an apartment for a few hours, but it morphed into something else.

No, I am not wanting to rescue her. I considered a single sentence that may make her stop and think. No names. Just a statement that may give her pause.

Posts: 24 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Rocky Mountains
♀ 36307
Member # 36307
Default  Posted: 12:34 AM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Listen to your heart and treat the graphic designer as you wish to be treated.

You mentioned friends made comments to you in the past about red flags of sort with your former husband. You failed to listen. You were too close to the situation possibly to recognize what was happening. Hindsight is often 20/20.

With the graphic designer, she will be so early in this relationship that she should be able to objectively, as you were with him, recognize his user personality. You were able to prevent a repeat of past mistakes, and distance yourself. Hopefully, she will be able to act accordingly as well.

Personally, I would want to know.

BS: Me (65yo)FWH: HIM (67yo)) serial infidelities over past 35 years
DD: Multiple unconfirmed until 2013

friends wife lasting 10 years. TT over a
year a year. Now his health is declining,
among the lack of communication.

Posts: 741 | Registered: Jul 2012
♀ 31468
Member # 31468
Default  Posted: 12:44 AM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think you have any moral responsibility to this new person. It's not an AP or BS - in that case I might feel differently. But I don't think your interaction would make a difference. If I was really into this guy I would think you were a disgruntled ex. Move on and let it go. You have better things in your future to worry about.

[This message edited by persevere at 12:47 AM, June 7th (Saturday)]

Me: BW-46
Him: XWH-46

Status: D 2011
Remarried to a kind and wonderful man - 2017

Above all, be the heroine, not the victim. - Nora Ephron

It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.
- J. K.

Posts: 5292 | Registered: Mar 2011
♂ 23138
Member # 23138
Default  Posted: 1:06 AM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So let's say Billy moves in with Miss graphic artist and Billy being the "good guy" that he is pays her rent. Then they break up after let's say a year. Now Billy wants his share of the house. How much could that possibly be? I'm asking an honest question.

I can't imagine it being even as much as what he paid into it as rent and Billy doesn't sound like the kind of guy that's going to be doing any renovations. So nothing extra for improvements he made on the house.

DD: 1-14-09 EA/PA OM #1
TT: 5-11&12-09
DD#2: 5-18-09 EA OM #2
5-31-09: Told me she hasn't loved me.
No kids
Me BH: 38
12-08-10: S

Posts: 3839 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: Inside your computer.
Member # 35912
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First, I am sorry about what happened to your son and you
Second, in this situation you have no moral obligation to tell her. Here is why:
He is a user. If someone gives then he happily takes BUT he did not steal $, manipulate you into signing over assets, nor abuse you. He is a user.
Your concern about his new gf and her the house is unwarrented and requires a whole lot of "ifs". If they move in together, if he pays rent, if they break up.
It is not your job to imagine potential life paths for a woman you don't know.
I think you are seeing yourself in this woman and wish someone had warned you BUT the situations are completely different. You were married and had a child. Your ex was cheating and getting fired as a result. He had illegal sexual urges. Billy is a user. Period. He may morph into the same cheating pedophile as your ex but you have no evidence of that. What you have is unappreciated help, unreciprocated friendship, and bad gifts.
I glad you were able to see he is a jerk and end the relationship. But this is where it ends.

Posts: 543 | Registered: Jun 2012
♀ 32810
Member # 32810
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gently, but I agree that your post paints you in a pretty codependent light. Now, maybe there's a lot more to the story than you're telling here, but the way this reads, with the information you've given us, you do sound codependent.

Oh, and for me, the clincher on saying that isn't the way you treated him - it's the fact that you feel a moral responsibility to involve yourself in a perfect stranger's dating life. That responsibility doesn't exist, and it's not healthy.

Have you read Codependent No More? It was not what I expected, and I recognized a lot of myself in it that I never would have seen as unhealthy - I saw myself as a loving, caring, nurturer. Except my boundaries in my loving, my caring and my nurturing were all over the place and I was over-giving in a way that isn't healthy, and taking responsibility for people and situations that were never mine to be responsible for.

I do hope you can see this not as a criticism (since you seem to have taken at least one other post mentioning codependency that way), but as a resource.

"You yourself deserve your love and affection as much as anybody in the universe." -Buddha
"Let's face it, life is a crap shoot." -Sad in AZ

Posts: 14452 | Registered: Jul 2011
♂ 12908
Member # 12908
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But, here is why I am conflicted. I did not see who my ex was. Yet, I was aware that others knew something that I did not.

Nobody, and I meam NOBODY is responsible to tell you about the behavior of your SO/spouse.
Many folks knew what my ex was up to but they also knew I would never believe them until I found out myself. And they were right. I actually knew long before many of then did. Please do not blame your friends and family.

Be thankful for what you have and fade away from the situation.


PS - what makes you think this guy is having a relationship with the graphic artist? Because she did some work for him?

[This message edited by thyme2go at 2:20 AM, June 8th (Sunday)]

BH - no longer 50
3 DD's - (32, 28 and 21)
Divorced on 8/6/09

Posts: 9204 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: ND
♀ 1330
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is a vast difference between you wishing people had let you in on what your ex was doing and making big leaps of assumption about your former squeeze's dating life.

Graphics Girl is a big girl. Billy is a garden variety user and asshole. It is not up to you to "save" Graphics Girl, and she would probably think you were off the reservation if you did so.

I think you would like to paint this as altruism when it really is an "up yours" you want to give to Billy.

Stay out. As CatFather would say, "you don't have a dog in this fight."


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 27 and 24. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 31326 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
♀ 30346
Member # 30346
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, June 7th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

….or…."Not my circus, not my monkeys."

me...BS, 46 years old.

Posts: 4738 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: South
Topic Posts: 16

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