I still have lingering questions. They are questions that we have gone over and over but still don't make sense to me and I don't think he's being totally honest about. None are deal breakers. I think I keep asking because I hope some day he will be comfortable enough to be honest about these things. I want so badly to allow myself to trust him again and I tell myself if he could just be honest about these few things that maybe I could. But it always blows up in my face. We get nowhere. And the stress of us fighting and the shame and guilt he feels affects his confidence and he falls apart. He starts to doubt his ability to start his own business and he starts obsessing over his FOO issues. He feels like a loser. As long as I keep my hurt to myself he feels like he has my support and he's ready to take on the world.
Should I put off my questions until we get a little stability or does it sound like he's manipulating me? Maybe by putting them off, I will let go of them and just accept that his perception is different than mine. wishful thinking!! Can anyone relate to any of this?
As long as I don't bring up the OW or ask questions about that time we get along great.
Welcome invitation to rugsweeping...you want R? You ask until you are done asking and the WS's sits patiently, answering. Every single time.
I still have lingering questions. They are questions that we have gone over and over but still don't make sense to me and I don't think he's being totally honest about. None are deal breakers.
The deal-breaker should be the dishonesty...
As long as I keep my hurt to myself he feels like he has my support and he's ready to take on the world.
He is manipulating you. Making sure you are the good, quiet wife so he can take on the world and pretend he didn't just blow YOUR world up.
Come on scuba, do you want a life like this? A life with someone too afraid to see their own truth? DO you want to sit back and know you are being lied to only to create an illusion of happy?
What are you willing to settle for? If you read what you wrote it appears you are willing to sell yourself short for him.
Please don't do that.
Should I put off my questions until we get a little stability or does it sound like he's manipulating me? Maybe by putting them off, I will let go of them and just accept that his perception is different than mine. wishful thinking!!
If you continue to put this off you will never gain stability.
You need to demand truth and respect now,he needs to deal with his issues and you need to know you deserve better!
[This message edited by karmahappens at 10:23 PM, June 15th (Sunday)]
I can totally relate. It's like, I have a few good weeks where things seem normal. I don't really feel the need to talk about anything to do with the A...and then a trigger.. or my H not checking in with me one night out of the last 100. So I need to talk about it. H thinks we were done talking about it since it hasn't come up in a few weeks. I say we will never be "done" talking about it so get comfortable with it. Own it.
He goes blank, says nothing and listens to me flip out. Usually after a day or two he comes around with some thoughts about what I said in the heat of the moment.. But I don't get why they think one day we will never have to talk about it again. It is a huge chunk of what our marriage is built on because of THEM. I am so sick of feeling like I am defending MYSELF for triggering or trying to make him understand exactly how blown apart my world is. Ugh.. Sorry for the t/j but I really needed to get that out. I am here for ya.
OW had a baby. We do not know if my H is the father.
Together: 16 years
Kids: 3 beautiful boys. Ages: 11, 6, 3
Limbo 2 + years after dday
We read so many stories in here of people finding out even years later that the EA was actually a PA. It's scary. Especially when everything of great importance was discovered not disclosed.
I don't have answers, just thoughts that have come and gone for me. At times, as I watch my WS embrace IC and progress emotionally in our relationship, I tend to resign myself to the belief that if there was more she will eventually realize she has to tell me for several reasons. First, we agree that we want our relationship to be a true emotional connection. That can't happen with continued lies. Second, as she works toward authenticity in her life and in our relationship, I think that the burden of continued secrets will be too great for her to continue without revealing them. Third, I am slowly becoming convinced that she is coming to a full realization of how damaging any continued lies and deceit are. I have lots of hope that if there are more, she will recognize that the truth always comes out eventually and hopefully (with the realization if how damaging TT has already been) bring it to me first as a way to rebuild trust in a way she has yet to try. What sucks about all that is that if I do have all the major information, I will eventually have to take a leap of faith that the unresolved aspects of the EAs are simply evidence of how irrational As are in general. That will be difficult for me.
In my case, I still have two texts sent from her phone to AP 2 after she claimed to have ended it that she swears she either doesn't remember, might be about gaining a level in a game , were sent from a mutual friend of theirs that apparently stole her phone to text others often, or were mistakes made by the phone company. I also have to believe that she "can't remember" what happened with AP 1 because it was so long ago (almost 3years now), even though it was obviously so emotionally charged that it fulfilled some disgusting need for emotional or sexual attention she convinced herself she deserved at the time. I'm also supposed to believe AP 1 wasn't a PA, though the texts I was read from OBS were her asking the AP to get rid of OBS for the weekend so she could come f**k her and then suggested a quickie when it didn't pan out--who does that before actually having consummated the relationship? Finally, I'm supposed to believe that there were no other As, even though two is a pattern, her boundaries have been shit our entire relationship (unknown to me), I have a similar gut feeling to the ones I had during the two EAs I know about from earlier in our relationship, and I had to discover the ones I know about. It's simply maddening and crazy making.
To your questions, ultimately there are so many reasons for his resistance to your questions. Shame, guilt, anxiety, fear you will never get past it, continued lying, an inability to recall, and pain from watching the hurt you feel are all possibilities. I hate this saying right now, but feel compelled to say time will tell. If you are seeing progress in his personal awareness and insight, and if he is increasingly able to meet your needs, then maybe giving him sine space to gain better personal insight on his own toward answering your questions is a good idea. While I agree that our WSs should field and answer our question to the best of their ability no matter how many times we repeat them, the delivery of those questions can actually cause a block to accessing the truth we seek. Relentless asking can come across as badgering and feel like an attack. When we feel attacked our anxiety actually shuts down the parts of our brains required for memory retrieval. When that happens we search for answers that will lower our anxiety, which means our WSs give the answer they think will bring an end to their distress. It's an unintended (both WS and BS) platform to present half truths, accidental lies and lies of omission. Any answers given in that state won't help either of you.
TT'ing screws with you ...bad!!!!!
Defensiveness kills healthy communication.
Both are diversionary tactics, both prohibit the truth from surfacing. I now you know that.
I, too, am wondering how to proceed. Had a third DD recently.....have been advised for 2 years now to ask questions and check-in with each other regularly.
It's not full blown deal breaker quality, but this pattern absolutely will lead to a beak breaker. It will because it led to adultery before......2 more clicks of a mouse button and it is going to.
Words are needed, but carry very little weight right now. But, short term, that is mostly what we have to "build with". It takes time to support words with actions. And during that time other life events (moving, promotions) demand attention. Some of those events involve spousal support. With lies present....support is just not solidly felt.
Post resonates with me.
My response is geared towards how a spouses dishonesty affects another.
There's a whole other side of this......how dishonesty affects oneself. I spent 30 years being dishonest with myself......that I was not hurt by my FOO, that sex abuse was not a part of my history, that I was the emotionally available one in my M. As I find courage to look honestly at myself.....I note growth occurring.
Our spouses are growing too. It's a process for then too. They must find their courage to grow, just like I have to.
Your husband IS finding it.
He has quit a sure-thing for a maybe.
He agreed to sell your house.
Both are big time stress's. But he has faced the fact his family is toxic. I have hope that as he gets distance from them he will grow healthier and more courageous. That is how this works.....you notice an unhealthy pattern, you make the choice to change, you put in time and energy to change, and you do change.
Time plus work. (Honest work).
This is honestly work!
Keep the faith!
Karma, I guess I should listen to my instincts more. If I have to ask if he's manipulating me than he probably is. It feels like he is. Thank you for saying what I needed to hear.
LiedtoLucy, A little sympathy and validation from them would go a long way. I get so discouraged because I know my husband is the type to take his secrets to the grave.
BlakeSteel, when you commented that you were dishonest with yourself about things from your past...were you aware of it on any level or were you in denial? I ask because our counselor who we use together and individually says my husband is in denial about his reasons and feelings for his EA. I believe he is too. When you dealt with your dishonesty was it a sudden awakening or slow back and forth kind of thing. Sorry if I'm asking questions that are to personal. And yes, I'm very proud of my husband for facing that his family is toxic. It's something I never thought he would confront. He really struggles with it and they are laying the guilt and manipulation on really thick right now. He's holding his own though and I'm so proud of him!! Sorry to hear about your 3rd dday. I know how much it hurts!!
Worse, she insists that she's not being defensive by explaining "what really happened" rather than providing understanding and reassurance. Most of the time I just need to hear that she understands why I feel that way and she's sorry. Even if I'm asking for ore information, I need that validation first. It feels like she is telling me I'm wrong to have the thoughts I have.
I so relate to what you said!!! Why is this so hard for them to understand this. There have been a few times where my husband did get it right and what a difference it makes. I walk away feeling heard, validated, understood, supported and loved. I even tell him how it means when he responds the right way but I guess the desire to prove himself "innocent" is more important than validating my feelings. I really think that if my husband was like this all the time, we'd be much further along in the healing process. I can relate to just about everything you said! You are very good with words...thank you for sharing your experience and advice. I appreciate it!
I went through this and I can tell you that the TTs were part of the problem, but the other part was that I was trying to rationalize irrational behaviors. I didn't believe him because it didn't make sense to my rational mind. IC had to stop me and say 'you'll never be able to explain his behaviors, even he can't, so stop'. I was asking the same question over and over, and I believe his answers on the surface but it was the insecurity of me taking over and I would ask again. It reached the point where he would reply the way he thought I wanted him to, and that would create a whole other set of problems for trust. He was just getting frustrated with my searching for more, when there was nothing more there to find.
Trust your gut. My gut told me he was telling me the truth, but my insecurities allowed me to believe that there was no way this man could love me enough to be honest, that he must have felt something for them or been attracted to them to do this. If it's your gut that he is holding out still, you'll know. If it's your insecurities making you question, you'll know. Maybe write out a list of the questions you want answered, go through them with him but also have a sense of why you want those questions answered. Keeping the questions inside just eats away at you, if you feel the need to ask them, then ask them. It may help you get a sense of if you feel he is still hiding more from you or if your insecurities are getting the best of you. Another thing that helps is that he is remorseful and patient with you when he goes through the questions. If he is not, then he needs to be reminded that this is a process for you and you will be grieving what was done for a long time. Patience, remorse, approachability and compassion...he needs to make you feel safe by answering and helping, but it also needs to be done without yelling and fighting(I have learned this the hard way, as often the answers enraged me). I found for me personally that when I got to the stage of just having the odd question here or there, it was easier to ask the questions over text. We could discuss bigger issues in person, but the texts allowed the questions to be short and to the point. I was able to handle my emotions to the responses better without him there and we found that any new information coming out in written form (notes or texts) was handled much better by both of us, then we'd have discussions about them once they sunk in. You have to find a way that works for you, but compromising yourself for his sake isn't healthy and if that's what you feel you're doing by stuffing these questions in the back of your mind, then I would ask an IC how to bring them up in a way that is healthy for both parties. If he's not on board (do you see MC? because that is a safe place to ask as well), then that is him still manipulating you. But do keep in mind that you won't be able to explain everything, you'll never fill in all the gaps, and yes it is hard to explain their actions when they were acting so irrationally at the time.
BlakeSteel, when you commented that you were dishonest with yourself about things from your past...were you aware of it on any level or were you in denial? I
Some awareness on some level. Some total ignorance.
Example of partial awareness: I was aware the interactive sex talk happened and was weird.....but I completely blocked details.....graphic stuff I posted once and caused others to trigger hard so I won't do that again. Therapist said that is normal....a child remembers stuff they can process...but completely bury the really tough stuff.
Example of total denial; my Dad completely abandoning me at age 12. Was oh so confident I was not in pain.
Journey to full discovery?
Rarely a "ah-ha" moment....at least not early in the process.
Read or talk about it.
Man, that would suck. Glad that's not me. Peek at myself. Whew. Not me.
Huh? That does kinda remind me of me.....
Crap. There's more, isn't there?
Let's go to work.
Then "ah-ha" moments can occur.
If you haven't learned the difference between being condemned and being convicted....do yourself a big favor and learn it.
Plus to this? I am getting quicker at spotting myself lying or denying! Can turn around from that alley before I crash into the dead end!
Keep the faith.
What I have learned is, you are entitled to have any and all of your questions answered. But I have also learned to ask them at appropriate times. When we first found out, our minds can do some crazy amazing things and our WS's minds do some crazy things. They have an escape from the pain they caused you (FOG) and may be giving us false messages of wanting the family back. I like to equate this to life experiences. We have the most awesome yellow lab a puppy, named George. OMG, he will lick you up and down and is the most affectionate puppy one can be lucky to call their own. BUT, he was naughty and he had to be crated - when I crated him, and scolded him he snarled and got really defensive, it's nature.
Sorry for the rant, but YES, you deserve to know everything if you are expected to heal but there are certain times that are appropriate to ask. Think about this for a second, if you asked all those gory questions in a matter of an hour, do you really think you could absorb them and work through the response? Baby steps to healing and reclaiming your marriage, it will be so worth it.