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Newest Member: SadDadOf3 (46038)

User Topic: kind of a t/j: forgiveness from BS
heartbroken0903
♀ 27879
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is forgiveness from your BS important to you? Is it something you are hoping for and/or striving for? If you have not received forgiveness from your BS, do you feel that your reconciliation is less than ideal due to that?

My XH told me 2 years ago that he had forgiven me, and his actions indicate that he truly has. While it was nice to hear, it really didn't matter to me that much. I wasn't seeking his forgiveness nor did it feel necessary in order to have a good relationship going forward.

I've often pondered whether this is a bad thing (a sign of detachment) or a good thing (not dependent on someone else's opinion of me to be okay). The pre-A me would have dramatically proclaimed the relationship not worth continuing unless I had his forgiveness, and I would have manipulated or bullied him into giving cheap forgiveness, I'm pretty sure of that.

What are your thoughts/experiences about getting (or not getting) forgiveness from your BS?


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

We remarried in 2014.


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I really don't. He mentioned it once in MC that he did forgive me. But I don't think he has but he may be close. It's his process to work through. I would understand if he could not. I think some people can have good relationships without it.

I think true real forgiveness is very hard after this. I think it depends on your definition of it. If that means that it is in the past and that the person forgiving has let go of anger, resentment and the need to punish because they forgave, well, I have seen very little of that in real life. People usually seem to hang onto SOMe resentment.

I think of forgiveness and a very fluid moving process, changing from day to day. Some days I bet people are there. Other days are more difficult.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5777 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Trying2LoveAgain
♀ 43024
Member # 43024
Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, June 26th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a BS, I can tell you that early on, (maybe a month or two after Dday) I told my FWH that I had forgiven him. Well, a couple of months after that, I had to go back and tell him, that I really believed I HAD forgiven him, but in reality, I had not! He told me that he understood and would understand if I NEVER forgave him! Yet we are in R, and, for the most part, doing pretty well. I will never again tell him that unless I am 100% SURE that I have forgiven him 100%! I do agree that you can still have a good relationship (or at least still be working on it and moving forward) even if you haven't forgiven them yet. My IC counselor once told me that some people NEVER forgive their spouse, yet do move forward and live happy together. She said sometimes forgiveness just never comes! Having said that, I DO want to get to the point of total forgiveness though....because I think it REALLY IS a gift to the person doing the forgiveness as well as the one being forgiven.I think this is a great thing to discuss and I am going to ask my FWH how he truly feels (now 10 months since Dday) about being forgiven! I wonder now if his feelings about it could have changed????


Me:BS
Him:FWH
2 DS:35 & 30 , 2 D Grandchildren
"Oh the webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive"....My WH quotes this often.
I found out about H's affair 25 yrs later.Mine is my own "Life is a journey, travel with Care."

Posts: 399 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: New Mexico
BrokenButTrying
♀ 42111
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:28 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't need H to forgive me. It's way, way too soon for that anyway.

It's a process, you can R without it. However I think forgiving oneself, as a WS, is much more important.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1270 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
islesguy
♂ 38090
Member # 38090
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MY BS has told me many many times that she will never forgive me and I believe her and agree with her. I have very mixed feelings on the whole forgiveness topic. From my perspective I don't think I would want my wife to forgive me because what I have done to her is unforgivable to me and I will never forgive myself. The only reason I would want her to forgive me would be if it would help her in some way but she would never need to tell me about it.


Me: WH
Father of 3 beautiful girls

* I am a RS (Recovering Scumbag)
* Do as I say, NOT as I did. :-(
* I acknowledge the grace I have received. I know do not deserve it.


Posts: 233 | Registered: Jan 2013
DrJekyll
♂ 43618
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I believe forgiveness is crucial. Not for my sake as a WH, but for my BS sake. Forgiveness does not mean it doesn't hurt anymore. It means that they can let go of the hatred and bitterness. And that is what is important, for them. Not for us.


I am no longer Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. I am me, and they are both part of me.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

I do not PM with Women


Posts: 894 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: Midwest
Williesmom
♀ 22870
Member # 22870
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm divorced, so YMMV. I will never forgive him or the skank. Forgiveness is earned. I hope they both die a slow and painful death for what they took away from me.

I'm not bitter and I don't dwell on it, but you don't do something like that to someone that you ever loved.

I have forgiven myself for ever putting up with his bullshit, so that's really all I need.


You can stuff your sorries in a sack, mister. -George Costanza
There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women. - Madeleine Albright

Posts: 7866 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Western PA
SandAway
♀ 37775
Member # 37775
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgiveness from my BS isn't important to me. I do not expect it nor do I need it.

Giving me the gift of R tells me that he believes in me; in us. That is so much more important then hearing the word 'forgiveness' from him. He is still here and that in itself is a form of forgiveness.


fWW
BH Tred
M 16yrs
DDay Nov. 2011

Guns don't kill people; Affairs kill people


Posts: 439 | Registered: Dec 2012
Sad in AZ
♀ 24239
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't understand the concept of successful R without forgiveness. Is it that the BS acknowledges that the A happened, 'lets go' of the hurt that the A caused, and agrees to not use it against the FWS in the future? To me, that seems like rugsweeping.

R without forgiveness seems like settling for both parties. Not the kind of M that I would want.

My thoughts are all academic; I forgave the X on d-day. All he had to do was to stop the A and stop interacting with the OW (to the bitter end, he insisted she was just a friend.) He would not stop, so the inevitable outcome was D. Therefore, I now cannot forgive him to this day because he refused my initial albeit conditional 'gift' of forgiveness.


Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the tylenol?

Posts: 20560 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
painfulpast
♀ 41038
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Interesting topic. Can you R without forgiveness? Well, I suppose, if R means two people continuing a relationship.

We all see here on SI people saying they forgave for themselves, not for the WS or AP. What exactly does that mean? Well, the rage, resentment, hurt, insecurities, and all of the other horrible feelings regarding the A are there inside the BS, ready to emerge at a moment's notice (as I'm sure many of us can attest to). These things subside when forgiveness is in play. It doesn't mean a clean slate, or that full trust is back, or anything other than the BS is forgiving the actions that occurred. If those actions are not forgiven, and the feelings that the actions invoke are lying just below the surface, a massive swirling volcano of rage and resentment, I'm not sure real R can exist. I mean that in an emotional way. Physically, you can claim R just by sharing an apartment and bed. Emotionally, R involves both parties working towards closeness, rebuilding the bond they once had, working on better coping skills, etc. If that rage is still bubbling, if the resentment is laying in wait, how is it possible to rebuild those bonds and feel emotionally connected?

I don't think, and this is ONLY my opinion, that real R can happen without it. Until there is forgiveness, the BS has a wall a mile thick between them and the WS, and it's filled with explosives. This wall will prohibit the rebuilding of a deep connection.

Again, ONLY MY OPINION. I'm sure some will disagree with me, and that's ok.

It really is a very interesting topic.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Emotionally, R involves both parties working towards closeness, rebuilding the bond they once had, working on better coping skills, etc. ?

We're doing all this and have a good life because of it. Still haven't forgiven.

In Gottman's book The Science of Trust it reads:
"There are times when it is more damaging to forgive than to move on: when the injury has been so deep, the deception and betrayal so grave, the evil perpetrated so serious, that forgiving would be damaging psychologically to the person who was betrayed".

not saying that's all of us here but I bet it's some. I certainly can't make that determination for anyone else.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5777 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Sad in AZ
♀ 24239
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"There are times when it is more damaging to forgive than to move on: when the injury has been so deep, the deception and betrayal so grave, the evil perpetrated so serious, that forgiving would be damaging psychologically to the person who was betrayed".

I can definitely understand this, but doesn't 'moving on' mean without the person who betrayed you? How could you possibly stay with someone who evokes such damage? How could you honestly say that you've reconciled with that person and have a loving, healthy relationship with them?


Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the tylenol?

Posts: 20560 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
painfulpast
♀ 41038
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can definitely understand this, but doesn't 'moving on' mean without the person who betrayed you? How could you possibly stay with someone who evokes such damage? How could you honestly say that you've reconciled with that person and have a loving, healthy relationship with them?

That's what I was thinking - that in these cases, moving on means without the betrayer.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
rachelc
♀ 30314
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dunno. Seems like the LTA or the double betrayal BS have a lot to forgive, if they can at all, and some stay with their WS...

So, we're debating that a true recovery can't happen without forgiveness? I think many on here feel that they are in a successful recovery without forgiveness. I really think that there doesn't have to be bitterness, anger or resentment but that doesn't mean forgiveness. Not sure what it means.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5777 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
heartbroken0903
♀ 27879
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Interesting replies so far. I'm on my phone so if I have trouble quoting, I apologize.

If that means that it is in the past and that the person forgiving has let go of anger, resentment and the need to punish because they forgave

I think this is my XH's definition.

I agree that people hold on to at least some resentment. I still resent wrongs done to me years ago by people I will never see again. I don't see how my XH doesn't harbor at least a little resentment, even anger, toward me. He's a bigger person than I am though.

Giving me the gift of R tells me that he believes in me; in us. That is so much more important then hearing the word 'forgiveness' from him.

Agreed 100%.

Sad in AZ, I don't believe that accepting the A happened, letting go of the bad feelings and not using it against the WS in the future is necessarily rugsweeping. It CAN be, but I think it's possible to come to that point while also fully having worked through it. Unless of course I'm living in fantasyland and my XH has totally misled me about his process in getting to that point (as I wasn't privy to it firsthand due to the divorce).

I do think, even with my XH's claim of forgiveness, there is an element of settling in our relationship. I think that's a natural consequence of getting back together after I cheated. We were both gravely disappointed in our post-D relationships. I do think that there's an element of "the devil you know...." at work with us. (He didn't cheat but he did other harmful shit, mostly financial.)


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

We remarried in 2014.


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
timidhope
♀ 43189
Member # 43189
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

R without forgiveness seems like settling for both parties. Not the kind of M that I would want.

This is the gold standard for me, AZ. I truly hope that a couple can have an even better relationship after a betrayal if they choose to stay together.


DDay: April 2014

Posts: 100 | Registered: Apr 2014
painfulpast
♀ 41038
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, we're debating that a true recovery can't happen without forgiveness?

Recovery vs Reconciliation. To me, recovery is what one person does. Reconcile is what two people do. I believe a person can recover without forgiving (be it a BS forgiving the WS, or the WS forgiving themselves, or even the WS forgiving the BS). For reconciliation, if you don't forgive, then you're still harboring some serious anger issues. I'm not convinced it's possible to 'reconcile' with someone that you're that hostile towards, even if that hostility is buried and doesn't often show. It's there, and as long as it is, the person that doesn't forgive can't get truly close to the person that hurt them so deeply. Without being able to be truly close, and feel safe with a person, how is it possible to call it a 'successful reconciliation'? To me, it isn't possible, because one person is holding back, intentionally or otherwise.

What is really interesting for me are the answers in this thread. With one exception, the BSs are saying that forgiveness is necessary, and the WSs are saying it's not. I think that shows the difference in the feelings that arise in the aftermath of infidelity.

As it's generally the BS that would be the forgiver, and the BSs here that have chosen to respond say that yes, forgiveness is necessary for a true reconciliation, wouldn't one conclude that the BS does indeed need to forgive to have a true, fulfilling R?

I'm not saying that without forgiveness, R is impossible, but what kind of R is it really if one is still filled with anger, uncertainty and mistrust? It would seem that, at best, it would be a very superficial R.

All just my opinion, but I really do think the split on the answers is interesting.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
heartbroken0903
♀ 27879
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For reconciliation, if you don't forgive, then you're still harboring some serious anger issues.

I disagree with this. I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive (inclusive?). I don't think forgiveness means the absence of anger, nor do I think anger means the absence of forgiveness.

Maybe it's how I look at forgiveness. I don't think the lack of resentment, bitterness and the desire to hold one's offense over the offender's head (a good working definition of forgiveness IMO, at least one as good as any) have to mean that the offended party will never be angry about it. I think that's unrealistic, in fact, for the majority of us human beings.

I'm not saying that without forgiveness, R is impossible, but what kind of R is it really if one is still filled with anger, uncertainty and mistrust?

Again, I don't think one is dependent upon the other.

My XH says (and truly believes) that he has forgiven me. Does that mean he'll never have his moments of mistrust, given my history? I highly doubt it. HE'D say he trusts me completely. I would call b.s. I don't think anyone should EVER trust anyone completely, unless (in a perfect world) it's a child trusting his or her parent. JMHO.

I just don't think that if one doesn't forgive, it automatically means they are "filled" with anger, uncertainty, and mistrust. I don't believe the feeling of forgiveness, if one has it toward their offending party, wipes away all of the negative feelings associated with said offense, but nor do I believe the LACK of forgiveness means that those negative feelings overwhelm the offended one.

Did that make sense?


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

We remarried in 2014.


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
hopefull77
♀ 43221
Member # 43221
Default  Posted: 8:30 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

6 days after dday I iniated sex with my H...I said to him...you always knew I would forgive you didn't you.....
when I told my IC this she asked me wide eyed why I said this ...I told her I have no idea....still don't 19 months later...
I am almost there....
feels like peeling an onion...lots of tears


me-BS
him-WS
3 adult children 1D 2S
married-1977
LTA 06-2010 - 11-2012
D-day - 11-11-2012
status - reconciling and very hopeful
"Let Go of Control; Let God's Life Flow" ...Richard Rohr



Posts: 703 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: sunny california
saturnpatrick
♂ 35989
Member # 35989
Default  Posted: 11:03 PM, June 27th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I 'forgave' FWW within about 2 weeks of DDay also.

I think what I really was saying is "I want to forgive you."

And that's the strange thing. I really do want to forgive. I don't want to be angry. Not really my style.

I still have a quiet simmering anger that I just wish would go away. I'm sure I'll get there. I think I'm getting really close.


BH
I typo therefore I edit.

Posts: 198 | Registered: Jun 2012
Topic Posts: 38
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