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callmesteph posted 7/2/2014 21:43 PM

My WH and I are in a good place right now. He is doing everything a remorseful H should. I feel very hopeful & positive about our future together.

Just some background before I ask my question. My WH had a 2&1/2 year A with OW1 and concurrently a 2 mth A with OW2 with a handful of escorts in between those 2&1/2 years. He claims he has always loved me and never stopped loving me and that HE NEVER LOVED THEM. He went complete NC on his own on DDay (12/3/13) and said he had told them he would never leave his family.

I never had a chance to read any texts exchanges between WH and APs. My question is, is it possible for our WS to not love the AP especially in a LTA? My WH seem very convincing when he tells me that they did not mean anything to him and that it was complete selfishness on his part and that he loves me and never said "I love you" to them.

I know every case and situation is different but I sometimes wonder if he is telling me the truth. I guess I will never know the full truth but I wonder how others in the same situation feels or perhaps could shred some light on this topic.

Lowlow posted 7/2/2014 21:47 PM

I find it hard to believe that after 2.5 years he never told her that he loved her. While it may be true, it isn't likely true, tbh. At least that's how it was with my WS and his AP. He eventually confessed he loved her after I found the emails confessing his love forever and always

callmesteph posted 7/2/2014 22:02 PM

Thank you Lowlow for your response. Someone had told me in generally if the A lasts longer than a year that there may be love involved. I am still debating if I should get a subpoena to read those texts exchanges between them. I know that could possibly open up a can of worms but whatever the outcome....I feel strong enough to deal with it as I see it as a way to possibly help me heal and just close that lingering question that will haunt me forever :(.

Lark posted 7/2/2014 22:12 PM

I'd recommend reading NOT Just Friends, if you haven't already read it. It gives a lot of insight into the hows/whys/feelings.

Typically guys are very reluctant to admit the feelings involved because an emotional betrayal is harder to stomach than the physical. So they'll downplay/minimize it - Glass talks about this in teh book.

My husband had a 10 month EA/PA with the one woman and a PA with a second.

WHen I first found out, my husband said that he had "some" feelings for OW#1, and he "loved her on some level." He DID say "I love you" to her - but swears he was not comfortable saying it and only said it because she said it to him first and he felt he had to reciprocate

After a few days, wheN I asked him again if he'd loved her, he said stepping back from it no he did not feel that he loved *her.* But rather he loved the fantasy world - the stay up al night, secret life, waiting and sneaking between texts, anxiously waiting the next time, the thrill of it all . And that he was addicted to that. That while he liked her, looking back his feelings for her were nothing like what he'd normally consider love or anything like what he feels for me.

I think that was a nice way for him to word it, but I think he is also taking the chance to downplay the emotional side for "my sake." I read hte emails between the two of them, he started each one with "Good morning, love" and told her how much he missed her, how she knew what was in his heart, how hard it was for him to be away from her, and he'd end with "I love you." He even wrote her poetry.

Now that he's removed from the affair, he said that every time he thinks of her he feels physically ill and consumed with guilt. He said he has no positive feelings at all about any of it at this point.

So my thoughts are that yeah, there are feelings involved. But they also have to be understood withint he context of the situation - they may have felt "love" or feelings in the moment, but in reality they were IN that affair and situation because of their own ego and id, selfishness, and infatuation with the fantasyworld. It wasn't real. (Though I imagine in some EAs it was)

In my husband's case - and perhaps in your husband's as well - the presence of the second OW helps reinforce this. My husband had started flirting with the second woman before meeting OW#1, cotninued flirting with her though decreased the amount, and immediately picked up with her when OW#1's husband found out. While he sent all his romantic emails to OW#1, he'd be sexting OW#2. His call log literally goes texts to OW#2, call to OW#1, texts to OW#2 with an email thrown into OW#1 at some point in the day.

So that is one of the parts about there being multiple women that I suppose is easier, at least for me, because it reinforces that it wasn't love, it was just love of the situation and fantasy affair world.

Lark posted 7/2/2014 22:13 PM

Oh and I alwasy read that it is harder for women to learn of emotional affairs than the physical, though obviously both are hard.

With my husband having two, I can definitely say the emotional affair is definitely harder. The physical side is horrifying and upsetting and devastating... but the emotional side is haunting.

callmesteph posted 7/2/2014 22:51 PM

Lowlow and Lark, I'm so sorry you had to read those painful emails from your WH exchanging loving words to the AP!

Lark: thank you for the book recommendation. I actually bought tons of books after DDay and that was one of them (will have to start reading it). Yes, my H was texting both women at the same time as well which led me to ponder if he truly love OW1 he would not have seek out OW2 or the escorts in between. I can relate to the fantasy world that was created and the high that came with the addiction of A world in my H case as well. I think my question ties in with the investment of an emotional affair if there was love involved so I completely agree it is so hard to swallow.

I'm glad both of our H are "consumed with guilt" and "feel physically ill" about their AP(s). Feels good to know that they truly realize how much they love us now :).

Sunnydaysahead posted 7/3/2014 00:29 AM

I will weigh in for what it is worth....my H was involved in an 8 year LTA with a MCOW.. He is adamant there was never anything more than sex...no emotions, no love....just sex. He and his AP did not meet up on a regular basis, sometimes once a month, sometimes there were three months in between (there was one 10 month stretch where H "white knuckled" it).

According to H, the sex was intriguing and exciting the first several times, and then it became more of a compulsion. It was mostly rushed since they would meet up during the day. Once the act was over, they parted in a hurry. Both H and the OW claim they never spoke about love, felt they were in love or ever wanted to leave their spouses. H and i have talked about the nitty gritty details of their activities....and I wanted to know ALL of the detaiils...as hard as they were to hear.

He claims after he was with her, he felt guilt and remorse and swore to himself he would not go back...until the next time it happened....(and it obviously happened again and again and again)... I spoke extensively with OW's BH after DDay and for the most part, H and OW's stories match...they differ on some of the details, but the overall gist is the same. Both H and OW agree she originally approached him. He is still working with his IC on the "why" he entered the A to begin with (my theory is because he wanted to and he is a selfish ass)

I have seen the text messages between them, they were very clinical..just arrangements where they should meet up and when. It almost seems like a cross between a friends with benefits arrangement and having his own personal hooker. Their phone bills do not show many texts (one of the reasons they were able to fly under the radar for so long). I have also pored over bank records, no money missing.

One of the hardest things for me to grasp has been the lack of apparent romantic feelings in the relationship. Although I have never engaged in an affair and can't imagine doing so, if i was going to, I would expect hearts, flowers, fancy meals and professions of undying love. It is especially disheartening and humiliating to realize my H would risk our 25 relationship for hurried sex in the back of a car with someone he didn't even have strong feelings for.

H is in IC and is also attending SAA meetings. We are reading Not Just Friends and How to Help Your Spouse Heal from an Affair together. We have also read several books on addiction recommended by the IC. It has been a very bumpy ride, we will see where the future takes us.

Lark posted 7/3/2014 01:35 AM

^ yes and then there is just the plain "sexbuddy"

So sorry sunnydaysahead. Hugs!! That is just awful, for 8 years :(

OW#2 was a sexbuddy. They texted a ton too because apparently that's my husband's affair MO. But the contents of their texts were very different. Not even "I like you" or "you make me feel good" like he did with OW#1. It was all just sexting. Though sometimes they crybabied to each other how guilty they felt about doing this to their BS before dropping their pants, but I guess those were pretty rare.

still-living posted 7/3/2014 04:29 AM

I will weigh in for what it is worth..

Sunnydays,
My wife's affair was very, very similar to what you describe so I say your input was very, very worthwhile. I know it's hard to believe as a new BS. It was fun and excitement, and immaturity.

[This message edited by still-living at 4:29 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]

Alex CR posted 7/3/2014 04:49 AM

My H had a five year LTA with a woman in another country where he travelled for work. They exchanged I love you's, wrote emails, talked on the phone and physically met up with each other when he traveled there for business--- from what I can figure out they spent just about a year together physically over the five period. They stayed in his hotel, ate out and he even went to her parents house for dinner.

Do I think he loved her? No...Love isn't the maid cleaning the room and dinner out and presenting just your 'good' side to the other person. Love is being honest and caring for someone and wanting what's best for them. Lying and cheating to carry on an affair isn't doing what's best for anyone except the cheater themselves...they are getting what they want ...that, for my H, was getting stroked, both his ego and his dick. And he lied to OW to get it.

Love is dirty dishes, cranky kids, quickies when the kids are out, wonderful holidays, struggling with money, family weddings and funerals, creating a lifetime of traditions together and finding the sweet spots that keep your love going above all the chaos in life. An affair is a selfish attempt to fill a hole inside a person, using people to get what they want, including the AP. An affair is all about one person's wants......love is about two people, wanting the best for each other.

callmesteph posted 7/3/2014 08:36 AM

Sunnydaysahead....like Lark, I'm so sorry for the length of time your WH engaged in his A. It's hard to grasp how he could continue the A despite the lack of love. I think it is sickening either way but IMO, I would have preferred this lack of love just so my WH was not heavily invested emotionally with another women.

It almost seems like a cross between a friends with benefits arrangement and having his own personal hooker.

This resonates with me and Lark's "sexbuddy" comment. My H also claims OW#1 was a "matter of convenience."

My H felt like a king when he started the A and he was at the height of wealth & success. He was very selfish and thought he could have whatever he wanted. Unlike your H, mine unfortunately spent tons of money on OW#1 and texted both APs 24/7.

Sunnydaysahead....if your registration day is an indication of your recent DDay, I applaud you for seemingly handling this horandous situation with such strength and courage. Glad he is attending IC and SAA meetings. I wish you both luck on this roller coaster ride that we were tossed onto without any say in the matter!

MissedRedFlags posted 7/3/2014 08:52 AM

My WH had a 3 yr LTA. We are 1 year out from DDay and he claims he didn't "love" her and always "loved" me. However, it is hard to believe and understand when he has admitted that he told her he loved her and she (OW) REALLY loved him and OW REALLY believed he loved her---I have talked to her and read some letters that she gave to him after DDay.

He now admits/thinks that it was just lust and claims that he said anything to keep the affair going---that it was just for the sex. He told her he loved her, they had "plans" to get married --had outlined where to have the ceremony and where to honeymoon. From my perspective, I can't grasp talking to someone about love and marriage without there actually being emotions involved. However, the night I found out he'd been to a 3 hour dinner at bar with another woman ( a family law attorney! The irony!!) and I later discovered that he'd reached out to other woman on FB following his 20 year high school reunion. My mother-in-law feels that this is evidence that he was "getting bored" with the 3yr AP and was moving on. WH admits he didn't know how to end the affair--afraid she would contact me. Sigh. It's hard to know what to believe.

Me: BS 41
Him WS 39
DDay June 4, 2013
3 year LTA
Married 16 years
2kids aged 9 & 7

callmesteph posted 7/3/2014 08:52 AM

Still-living.....I read your story and my heart goes out to both you and your WW. So sad that your wife had to endure such terrible FOO issues so you were the glue/rock that held your family together. I could see some of those FOO issues in my WH's childhood as well. Unfortunately, they become adults but still live in that childhood stage and lack the emotional maturity and stability that contributed to making irrational decisions by having the A.

It takes tremendous will power to forgive and stay with someone who betrays us in the worse possible way and so I commend you for that. It was very helpful reading your story so thank you for sharing that as well.

I do hope things are going better with your sons and that your wife's horrific family tradition/curse will be broken within your family.

callmesteph posted 7/3/2014 09:10 AM

Alex CR.....so sorry you have to deal with a LTA as well, although once condensed, it would appear shorter in duration.
Yes, ego stroking was popular with my WH too, satisfying both of his heads as well!

I completely agree with you on what true love is versus the empty non-gratifying affair love:

Love is dirty dishes, cranky kids, quickies when the kids are out, wonderful holidays, struggling with money, family weddings and funerals, creating a lifetime of traditions together and finding the sweet spots that keep your love going above all the chaos in life. An affair is a selfish attempt to fill a hole inside a person, using people to get what they want, including the AP. An affair is all about one person's wants......love is about two people, wanting the best for each other.

Thank you for that....it helps knowing we were/are living in reality when it was just all fantasy land for them.

callmesteph posted 7/3/2014 09:45 AM

MissedRedFlags.....you are ahead of me by 6 mths in terms of DDay and our story has similarities. My WH initially said that there was "lust" involved (she is at least a decade younger than me). I believe mine probably got bored as well with OW#1 when he seeked out escorts and OW#2. I don't think our Hs are capable of loving any one person because they were so empty and broken inside. Mine was bored...he was also probably curious as to what was out there since we were each other's first and was extremely selfish because he was making it big and felt like a king.

Thank you for sharing your story and insight. I'm beginning to not care whether he said he loved her or not because he was just living a lie so anything said or felt during the A was all said in vain.

seethelight posted 7/3/2014 09:54 AM

My question is, is it possible for our WS to not love the AP especially in a LTA? My WH seem very convincing when he tells me that they did not mean anything to him and that it was complete selfishness on his part and that he loves me and never said "I love you" to them.

I haven't read all the other posts, so I hope I am not repeating anything, but I think it's possible that the wayward's loved PARTICULAR ASPECTS of their OWs.

Very possible. If they say they didn't it's possibly denial because if they did not love some aspect of them, why would they stay in a long term affair rather than having one nighters or using prostitutes.

Those aspects were, perhaps, things that may have been missing in the spouse because realistically, no spouse can fill every desire and need of another person.

That is however what same sex friends are for. Those same-sex friends may share interests that the spouse does not share and thus they fulfill a need.

Sadly some people look to an opposite sex person to fulfill those needs.

So, yes, our spouses likely loved the OW in some way.

I do believe that they don't in most cases love them enough to want them as spouse material.

They are just a diversion that fills a gap.

StillStanding1 posted 7/3/2014 10:18 AM

I'm so sorry you find need to be here, but welcome. LTA's suck in their own special way. All infidelity is soul-crushing and no matter which hand you are dealt, you always wonder if another is "better". I firmly believe they are all devastating and difficult to overcome. That's why we are all here.

I think the situation he describes is possible, as some posters have verified. My WH started his A with a married OW as a "no strings attached" arrangement. In retrospect, he said that he should've known that, for him, it would be impossible to be so intimate with someone without developing feelings (oooh, love!).

But I do believe each person and relationship is unique, so I believe it's possible for some people to keep up a convenient "fuck buddy" relationship if it's what they both want. My WH said (while he now fully admits he never should have started the A), he should've ended it when she started D with her BH. That she wanted to change the dynamics of their relationship. Well, he didn't and soon found himself in the predicament of having to "choose" between us and of course, he loved us both. Poor guy. Oh, the suffering.

It sounds like your WH is remorseful. That is key. He needs to do everything in his power to make himself a safe partner for you going forward and to help you trust him again. Watch his actions. Don't concentrate so much on his words. It is scary to try to trust again, whether the WS loved the AP or not.

I'm so very sorry for your pain. You will spend many many days and nights wondering about these questions. I'm not sure that any answer will ever help. I hope that you can eventually make peace with it and move forward in a healthy way for yourself, whatever that path may be.

(((CMS)))

Lark posted 7/3/2014 11:15 AM

OW#1 definitely "loved" my husband, whatever love meant to her. She pursued him. From his telling of it, he was conflicted throughout but she did "make him feel good." I personally think that often women have the much bigger emotional investment in affairs than the men do, and that's why you see anecdotally the men come out of the fog faster.

TheThreeYearFool posted 7/3/2014 12:03 PM

Everybody's different but it's definitely possible for a WS to not love the AP.

I don't have to rely on my WH's word for this: one of the emails I found on D-Day was OW begging my WH to love her, and asking why he didn't.

This email was sent nearly three years into the A.

catlover50 posted 7/3/2014 12:24 PM

My H had an almost four year LTA and I'm convinced there was no love there. The second thing he said on DDay, after saying that he never loved her, was that he didn't respect her. Even the OW only said that she was "lonely" when I confronted her. They had mostly a professional relationship and she seemed very dependent upon him professionally and that stroked his ego. His own issues made casual sex seem like an okay thing to do in the compartment that he kept for "work". He never took her on a date, slept over, bought her a gift or so much as a card on her birthday (which caused her to pout for weeks!) or even sent a text on holidays or family vacations. He says she accused him of treating her like a whore. (When the shoe fits....)

He actually has major issues that only came out after Dday (CSA)and that contributed to the compulsiveness that kept the A going. He actually spent the majority of those years avoiding thinking about what he was doing and when he did, wishing he hadn't gotten himself into it. It became a compulsion, yes, but she also threatened to tell me when he would try to pull back. By the end he actively disliked her. He thinks even she was relieved it was over. Both of them were both so broken, and the A had gotten so toxic. Not at all compelling sounding!

So no, the length of the A does not necessarily equal the emotional involvement. There are some who believe that an intense EA/PA would not drag on so long as the "lovers" would want to be together more than the sneaking around allows.

BTW; my H has worked his ass off and has become the H that I would never have dreamed I could have.

Good luck to you.