SurvivingInfidelity.com Forum Archives

Return to Forum List

Begging you all for advice. Deal-breaker?

You are not logged in. Login here or register.

Pages: 1 · 2

beyondbelief13 posted 7/15/2014 13:16 PM

Ok, I REALLY need some help! Rather than "pollute" the info I will post a narrative of our last convo and ask/BEG all of you for your opinion.Was This a DEAL-BREAKER?

Whether or not any lies have been told in the past all of this better be 100% fucking true. I'm telling you this because if... I don't want to have to give you ultimatums but I have to.
Right now I feel like I have to tell you that if I find out that any of what we are talking about in these few days is a lie, a minimization or skating the truth or skirting or omitting the truth, I'm gone. I will not work on our marriage or remain married to you at all. I won't even entertain the thought.I'm telling you this up front so that you will watch your words very carefully. Because if anything comes out to be a lie or minimizing or skirting the truth in any way, it's over. I can't keep giving you chances to do the right thing and have you minimize or gloss over anything you did. Period. This will be your choice, marriage or not. And if in the future I feel that something isn't right I'm going to ask for a lie detector test to clear it up.That way I will know there are no more lies, no more minimizing, there's no more skirting the truth or telling half truths or whatever you want to call it. This is a huge opportunity for us to get it all out there and for me to believe what you're saying.


I know. I already know the whole thing. I already know how you feel about everything.

Well, I've never before felt this strongly that this is the last chance I have to offer you. That if there are any lies or minimization from these conversations it's over.

Ok, so back to your A story you're in the cars- yours or hers? Always in her car?

I think so-well, I'm trying to remember. I don't want to make a lie here. I don't remember now if we were ever in my truck. Yeah, we were in my truck once maybe more, because I remember her saying that my stereo sounds really good.

You mean OUR truck?

Jesus, yeah.

Did you kiss her in our truck?

I don't remember kissing her in my truck. No. But you're gonna say yes I probably did.

Did you touch her in our truck?

No! I'm sure I didn't!

Why? why do you know emphatically that you didn't?

I didn't put my hands in her clothes or anything like that I know that!

Did you touch her on our truck?

Touch her?

You know what I'm talking about, don't skirt this.

You're asking me if I put my hands on her private parts?

Yes.

Oh, God NO!

Why would that only happen in her car? Really? If you made out in the truck once, maybe more but only 'touched' each other in her car?

Ok, then I don't know. Ok, Maybe. No, I can't be sure. I don't know everything you're asking me I don't remember touching her in my truck. But the way you pointed it out to me, maybe I did. I don't remember.

I told you that my memory is that I didn't touch her in my truck

Our truck. So do you think that you don't want to remember or admit that you did that in our truck. That somehow that makes it worse or different than doing it in her car?

I don't think so. If I touched her, I touched her. I don't have anything to hide. I don't have a reason to hide anything anymore. Look if I touched her in my truck I did, but I don't think that I did. Oh man, it takes so long. Ok is that good enough for you?

Yeah.

***So, ok, well, I guess that's what we're talking about is meeting her at those places. What we usually did afterwards. So that's it.***

That's it? That's all?

well, um, kinda like grope over clothes. Woah, wait, I have to ask you here if you're ready for a break cuz you look really mad.

Yes, I need some time, I need to take a few. God damned it. Do you want to quit now?

Why do you ask that?

Because you're not being forthcoming. You violated our agreement. You just chose to divorce rather than be honest. Covering your ass and protecting your pride is still more important to you than your family. Some things never change!

I was being very forthcoming. You just got mad! I'm sorry if you didn't like the word grope or touching over clothes.

What the fuck? No, Because you said well, we were talking about the times I met with her and went in the car and made out. Then Silence for a long time then you said um like um groping- really? are you 2 years old? Do you not see the absolute wall you have put me against? How you just chose to divorce to cover your ass? Can you not have this conversation with me? If not, say so. If you're not gonna lay it all out there then you just made a choice.

"I'm sorry I'm not man enough for you. I'm doing my best. It's not easy. It's not easy saying hurtful things to you. So, there's the end of that chapter. I don't know what else to tell you about meeting her, I don't know, that's what we did there"

That's it? That's all you're going to say? Next chapter now?

What do you want me to say?

I'm done. You were for-warned.

I'm sorry this is so long, but I didn't want to "color" the convo. I am beyond rational right now. After all this time, I am in the worst place I've ever been in and fear for my sanity and future. Please, I really need some help/advice/shoulder/2x4, ANYTHING to be able to see this clearly. I posted this in general too, hope that's ok... need as much help as I can get right now.

whattheh posted 7/15/2014 13:43 PM

You are the only one who can decide your dealbreakers and tolerance levels are.

Not sure of your situation. Has your fWH had problems being forthcoming with the truth? Sounds like you are fed up and have issued a last chance type ultimatum to confess the truth scenario.

One word of caution. Don't kill the messenger and jump too hard if he "remembers" new details or he will keep withholding and forgetting.

plainpain posted 7/15/2014 13:52 PM

Wow. Well, I am exhausted trying to figure out what he was saying. Pulling teeth. I don't know if this is a deal breaker for you or not, but IMO he is not telling you the truth at all. My WH could not remember A LOT of things about his A in the beginning... and when the truth all came out it was because he had been juggling the A, online dating, a visit to a prostitute, a visit from one of his online dates, watching other people have sex in the back of a limo, trying to pick up a woman at the bank and meet her at her hotel... wow, that was a lot to process. So, I understood then why he couldn't remember how many times she had been in OUR truck. He had compartmentalized everything almost to the point of being two people.

If your WH can't remember it could be because there is way too much to keep straight, or because he knows that you will leave anyway if you know the truth so he's hoping maybe to at least go out with a whimper rather than a bang.

beyondbelief13 posted 7/15/2014 15:19 PM

whatheh posted:

Has your fWH had problems being forthcoming with the truth? Sounds like you are fed up and have issued a last chance type ultimatum to confess the truth scenario.

"problems being forthcoming?" Big time! Thus the ultimatum for this last convo... Everything since day 1 has been like pulling teeth, having to have physical proof inn order to kinda get to the truth or even to broach the subject. I even gave him all the texts and emails and letters in order to create a timeline. Pathetic... He even minimized a 7-8 month A to be only 3-4 months and any details were glossed over...

One word of caution. Don't kill the messenger and jump too hard if he "remembers" new details or he will keep withholding and forgetting.

I am SOOOO guilty of this.
I admit that I have not made it easy. I have reacted with extreme anger, suicide attempts, threats... You name it, Crazy behavior! I am having another mri to see if my bran injury is contributing to my over the top emotional state or if I am truly Crazy as a loon!

beyondbelief13 posted 7/15/2014 15:28 PM

Plainpain, I am so sorry for what sounds like a horrific reality for you to have to face. I admire anyone who can wake up to face another day with all that insanity that became our reality.

If your WH can't remember it could be because there is way too much to keep straight, or because he knows that you will leave anyway if you know the truth so he's hoping maybe to at least go out with a whimper rather than a bang.

Too true here, a whimper rather than a loud bang" This is what 25 years of thinking you knew someone only to find out that it was all lies, that your spouse was a fictional character, one you made up... A ghost of what they portrayed themselves to be.
This is all so crazy making that most days I just don't want to wake up, ever! Especially to seeing his face. We are living together but in separate rooms and barely interacting because it got too frightening for me, acting out so strongly, hurting myself and making my beautiful 12 yo DD have to witness all this pain and wonder if mommy is going to be crazy today or have seizures all day, etc Soooooo sad.
Thank you for letting me rant!

plainpain posted 7/15/2014 15:40 PM

It is incredible when I write it all out. I was married to a stranger. But I know him now, and for me all I ever wanted was the truth. The truth I can handle - it's the lies that killed me. The ONLY way I was willing to move forward with him was with complete and total honesty and absolute remorse. No more lies of omission, no more minimizing, no more "well, if she ASKS me I'll tell the truth". It is hard enough under those circumstances, but apparently it is possible because here we still are. And mostly I am actually quite close to happy.

I hope you get what you need from your WH. Even if you do not, you will survive. I had to promise my WH that I would stop saying I just wanted to die. It made it too hard for him to give me the truth, and telling the truth was very very scary for him as it was. If you ask for the truth you have to find a way to prepare yourself to receive it. As much as it boggles the mind, I don't think the WS ever has it in their mind or heart to hurt us. They are being selfish and not taking into account the damage they are doing.

beyondbelief13 posted 7/15/2014 16:07 PM

Plainpain posted:

The ONLY way I was willing to move forward with him was with complete and total honesty and absolute remorse. No more lies of omission, no more minimizing, no more "well, if she ASKS me I'll tell the truth". It is hard enough under those circumstances, but apparently it is possible because here we still are. And mostly I am actually quite close to happy.

Wow, I am so glad for you that you finally got what you needed in order to make the commitment to stay and rebuild. I am in awe of your strength!

How did you get him to realize that the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but, was what he needed to provide?

I had to promise my WH that I would stop saying I just wanted to die. It made it too hard for him to give me the truth, and telling the truth was very very scary for him as it was. If you ask for the truth you have to find a way to prepare yourself to receive it.

THIS! This is my biggest sin... I blow up, I react, I threaten, I attempt suicide, I have seizures, I wind up at the ER with brain complications... Really, I have made it next to impossible for him to feel safe telling me anything. There have probably only been a handful of conversations where I have been able to remain calm. And for the life of me, I don't know what I do differently. It's almost like my brain is unable to keep up with the convos and it defaults to protection mode and I wind up seizing on the floor, or acting completely irrational!
I am hoping beyond hope that my new IC will see my urgency and help me somehow. In the meantime I am a SI posting addict, lol.

Hatemyhusband posted 7/15/2014 16:08 PM

I know many of them hold back the info bc the details and facts they feel will cause more pain. I really do believe it's that and admitting what they did is the bs realized how screwed up in head they were to do those things. So they withhold facts

Mine withheld important stuff (to me). He only said they hooked up in hourly motel, her house and mine once. She told me they spent day in this expensive hotel to celebrate bday. Once I confronted him w additional facts a few weeks out of DD, he broke. Saying if I hear it all I'll D him for sure. So I told him it's his last chance to answer correctly w info I wanted

Questions I needed answered:
- gifts purchased for each other. ( he bought her 3 thgs)
- exact locations of hook ups- her house. Mine. Crack motel. Her moms. Sisters. Nice hotel once. Her classroom. An abandoned house near hers. Her car. Three job sites
- if anyone knew- they didn't
- where he took her- 2 beaches. Our boat once. One restaurant twice. Deli near job site. Another diner few towns away.

I texted her and asked some questions giving her seconds to respond. I told her if her answers didn't match his, I out her to the town.
They did

Tell him flat out holding bk info will cause u more pain and I will find out truth one way or another. Give him one more shot to come clean. Write questions on paper. Have reply. Write the date and time. He can't recall is bull.

beyondbelief13 posted 7/15/2014 16:26 PM

Hatemyhusband posted:

I know many of them hold back the info bc the details and facts they feel will cause more pain. I really do believe it's that and admitting what they did is the bs realized how screwed up in head they were to do those things. So they withhold facts

Damned, this is just crazy-making... Can't they see that even with a concrete ultimatum given, that this is the only choice they have? Or do you think like another poster said, they just don't believe that we bs will follow through? I just feel that after all of this time he would finally put aside his pride... but
I guess I'm again not worth it.

ageek1 posted 7/15/2014 18:59 PM

I can totally relate!! My W had an EA for a few months and completely denies a PA when they were at a conference together...whether I believe her is still up for debate. She has always been reluctant to tell me the truth, although she says she has. It was long distance and they chatted all the time. For her it was the attention he gave her that she felt I wasn't providing. It went on for only 2 months when I found out be he was unable to stop it so it went on for another 5 weeks after I repeatedly found evidence. I have pressed for the details and the MC has explained why I need to know it too. She gets frustrated and I sometimes feel there is no resolution. We try now to choose a topic to discuss and if it's too big, then we wait for the counselor to mediate. So far it been pretty good, but sometimes I get the "I don't remember" or "I don't want to hurt you anymore than I already have" or "it's over why is it important" and that just pushes my suspicion and makes me speculate.

I hate to say it, but there are those who do REALLY feel bad for what they did and just can't bear to say it out loud.

I found a text from the OM and my W didn't tell me even though we agreed she would. It causes stress for both of us...with her it's having to worry about my reaction, it's over in her mind so she ignores it. With me, I think there is a reason she doesn't tell me and there is more. It's hard to control your emotions and push someone who is not comfortable at all with the details. It may take a long time, or not at all, and I'm trying to come to terms with that.

I may not have provided anything positive, but thanks for letting me vent!

ageek1 posted 7/15/2014 19:03 PM

Sorry...I was distracted while writing...but to add...I found a text from the OM and my W didn't tell me even though we agreed she would. It causes stress for both of us...with her it's having to worry about my reaction, it's over in her mind so she ignores it. My wife was willing to deny it to the point where she was going to sleep in the other room and say she was done with marriage if I can't get over it. I was floored and confessed I knew about the text and was shocked she was willing to go to the extent she did just so she wouldn't have to admit it. I really believe it is over (she didn't reply to the text) but how she deals with it is so very much different than I do, or want to. Today I ordered the book, How to help your spouse get over your affair. I read the pretext and hope she understands what exactly I'm looking from her to move on.

Thessalian posted 7/16/2014 03:45 AM

@beyondbelief

Oh man. I am so sorry. I had that insanity conversation with my SAWH about 700 times, and it was complete crazy-making. I would have to stop in the middle and say out loud "I am not insane - I am able to have conversations that make perfect, logical sense with EVERYONE ELSE - you are making no logical sense". I only finally started wrapping my head around how many lies I was being told when I thought, "If I was in his position and I was telling the whole, complete truth, what would I be saying?"

I would be grabbing my BS by the shoulders, looking into their eyes and saying, "Honey... honey. Look at me. I never touched her in the truck, OK? Never. Not over the clothes, not on the mouth, not 'down there', period. Ok? The truck is safe. I did a lot of horrible things, but the truck is safe." If I HONESTLY couldn't remember, I would be falling all over myself to give an account of what I COULD remember. Make him walk you through exactly what he CAN remember - instead of skirting around what he can't.

My story wouldn't change no matter how many times I was asked, I wouldn't say "Maybe, um... well... er..."

And -here's the key - I wouldn't be unable to give a clear, straightforward, consistent answer. The only reason giving a clear, consistent answer is difficult, and why someone keeps giving you answers that sounds like insanity-nonsense-babble, is because they are lying to your face.

That "Maybe, no, 'As far as I recall', 'If memory serves', 'If I did but I didn't but maybe if I did it was..." ... all that stuff? In my opinion, he's lying, period.

His brain is not in the truth-telling place yet. When my SAWH got there, all that crap stopped.

KatieG posted 7/16/2014 04:49 AM

Reading that exchange just makes me mad. It drives you crazy. The things they say don't make sense and when WBF did it to me I would explode. I had to talk to him during calmer moments and say that I wanted brutal honesty, that the truth heals, not to be scared it can't get worse, what I imagine is worse...

It took a long time for me to feel like we were having a normal, honest conversation together about stuff that happened. But I don't think it was anything I said to him. I think something shifted in him. He didn't want to hold stuff in anymore and maybe he realised the anger wasn't going to stop until he was honest with himself.

I also had to feel that what he said made sense. If you're feeling crazy he's holding back. I felt like an idiot all over again. This is TT and it adds to the trauma. Now, if I get angry it's usually about TT not the actual A.

movingforward26 posted 7/16/2014 09:08 AM

It seems like you have already gotten a lot of great responses. My H explained to me that he hated talking about the details with me because he felt like he was throwing it in my face.

I listened and honestly it hurt me more hearing what happened. I now focus on the fact that he had an A. Not the details. I find this a better way to R personally.

I hope this was helpful!

Only you know your deal breakers. You will have to decide what you can take.

JLyn1128 posted 7/16/2014 10:48 AM

I have to agree with some of the others....my WSO only got agitated when asked about specifics. He did NOT want to discuss it in detail. I came to the conclusion (with the help of my therapist) that it hurt him to relive what he had done, his own guilt was overwhelming (as it should have been) so, it became up to me, as long as he was meeting all my other terms and doing his part in rebuilding, what I NEEDED to hear. I know enough about the A without that level of detail, so I decided to stop asking. We concentrate on moving forward now. Ultimatums are not productive in a situation that moves and evolves as quickly as discovering an affair. Don't back yourself into corners, but only you know what hills are worth the battle.

ageek1 posted 7/16/2014 11:16 AM

JLyn1128

I agree, my W seems to fall into that category. I believe she is so remorseful and hurt for what she did, that her defense mechanism is to put it all behind her. She knows the hurt she's caused and talking about it or explaining what she did does nothing but embarrasses her and pains her too.

I found that she googled "Words for a new love" and the lyrics to the song Kiss You Inside Out by Hedley. This was just before Valentinces (2013), so I recently brought it up as it's something that has weighed on me. She didn't recall doing it and never sent him a valentines message. As for the song, she said she liked the song. To me this is all BS...just tell me the truth, I wanted to hear, Yes, I sent him a valentines, I looked up the song because I started to have emotions with him and fantasies. In the conversation, she finally said yes, she did it but it was out of anger, so I don;t know if she said because it was true or out of frustration or anger at my questioning.

Some want to forget and not hurt anymore, if they are remorseful and are trying to R.

lostworld posted 7/16/2014 12:52 PM

It sounds like we've all been in similar crazy-making shoes. I too would tell my H that "this is the last chance to come clean; that I could live with the truth but the lies were my dealbreaker..." However, it wasn't just him that doubted I would actually walk away, I doubted it too. In the moment, I absolutely meant it and believed it, but in reality I couldn't pull the trigger over lying about details. I'm not minimizing details--I wanted them, and he had the reasonable responsibility of honestly giving them to me. He chose not to because it shamed him to do so, he thought I wouldn't really be able to catch his "smaller" lies which were told to keep the marriage alive, he was still in the A pattern of lying about damn near everything except the existence of the A, and he allowed himself to believe that he was protecting me from unnecessary pain. I actually get his reasoning, but it doesn't mean it's not bullshit reasoning, and bullshit reasoning has to be dealt with by the bullshitter--not the recipient.

Now for the harder news: I had to continue to hold him to a standard of complete honesty while simultaneously recognizing that there were times where I made that standard a somewhat dangerous option. Dangerous for both of us. Sometimes total honesty proved too much for me, and I would react in a manner that was harmful for each of us and our M. My reaction, while understandable, just furthered the cycle of dishonesty which he created. He began to legitimately fear the repercussions to either himself or myself if he told me a truth that was too much for me, or was told to me at exactly the wrong time (PMS time).

And for even harder news: It took a long time to sort all this out. In my situation, I stopped telling him that this was an immediate dealbreaker. Instead I told him that lying or minimizing was slowly killing me inside, along with destroying my desire and ability to keep fighting for the M. And given this, I was still willing, on this day, in this minute, to hang in there, but that I honestly couldn't say when my tenacity, fortitude, and desire would simply snap. That I knew it was coming, but couldn't know exactly when. I told him I would call him on every questionable story/fact until I just didn't want to anymore, then I'd have to be gone.

Taking away the threat of leaving in the immediate moment seemed to slow things down a bit. As I became calmer and "safer", his tendency to evade and minimize quickly decreased. I know some folks may say that he should have been the one who had to get his crap together, not me, and that I shouldn't have changed myself just to get the truth from someone who owed it to me beyond all reason. On the surface, I'd agree, but down deeper, the change in my emotional reactivity and state was an incredible gift to myself. Giving myself permission to slow things down, to not have to make "forever" decisions at the moment, to stay in a M where I still had hope even though it was crumbling, was immeasurably good for me. I felt back in control of myself and proud of my reactions. And most importantly, I knew that I would definitely end things if they didn't show some progress, but realized that making a desperate or idle threat wasn't going to benefit me.

In the end, my H saw a sincerity in my calm and calculated resolve to take good care of myself, even if it meant without him. He also realized time was running out, and that to keep our M, he had to step up his game. He ratcheted up his therapy work and learned ways to tell me the truth while supporting and tending to me. I learned ways to manage my emotions and to strengthen myself so I knew I would survive no matter the outcome. We still hit a rare rough patch, but finally had the strength and tools to work through it. One of the saddest things I learned during this time was that all the lying and deceiving my H did during the A had to be unlearned, and he had to recondition himself to having the truth be his default. Thank God those days are long gone.

Don't be his doormat and don't ever condone deceit of any kind, but it may be helpful for you to rest in this place for a moment to really determine your dealbreakers and your various available courses of action. In the end, only you can determine these things, and it's ok if it takes a little bit.

Lark posted 7/16/2014 23:34 PM

When I first found out about my husband's affair, it was like pulling teeth to get any details - at all. I had to ask the right question, he volunteered next to nothing.

I had him read How to Help Your Spouse Heal. And communication did a 180 as he realized that trying to "protect me" by witholding details just made it worse. Trickling the truth made it worse. It was infuriating and driving me insane and making it impossible for me to trust him since I had no footing of when I was done "falling."

At one point, before he read it and before I found out the big picture, I told him "I feel like you've knocked me into a giant hole you dug, and it hurts. It hurts so badly. But the worse part is, I have a feeling that this hole is at the edge of a damn canyon, and you know I'm not even CLOSE to done falling yet. How about you tell me when I've hit rock bottom?" That was about an hour before I found out about OW1 and the LTA.

One thing I learned from reading How to Help Your Spouse Heal and also NOT Just Friends is that talking about the affair is pretty difficult for everyone. The WS wants to try and "protect" The BS, the lying is so incredibly ingrained in them, and they may not even be able to *see* the big picture yet themselves because everything is so compartmentalized. The BS wants all the truth right now, don't hold anything back, yet is enraged and devastated by every thing learned.

My cycle with my husband was that I would ask a question, he would answer, I would rage at him. To his credit, he continued answering questions - but this led to him not wanting to volunteer anything because he already knew what my reaction would be. I finally screamed at him to "man up" and accept responsibility for the pain he was causing me. But, I also toned down my reaction. I still raged and cried and was incredibly hurt, but I tried hard to facilitate communicaiton.

it isn't easy.

You know what your deal-breakers are and you know where the line needs to be. But, maybe shelve the ultimatums and the line during the discussions of what happened and finding out the details. Don't guarantee anything. Let him know that in order for you to even begin to know what to do or where to go, you have to know where ou are - which means hearing those painful details. Have him - and you - read the How to Help Your Spouse Heal (It's short, like 80 pages, and a quick read, and should be reread for details and reread again... and again... and again).

You don't have to decide this moment, today, or even this week what your decision is. It might help your sanity to remove that question right now as well. You can focus your energies right now on just trying to figure out how far that hole goes, where you are, and the truth. Later, you can figure out whether you want to R or not.

Sorry you are here :(

Lark posted 7/16/2014 23:51 PM

oh wow, someone just shared this on the other board - the How to Help Your Spouse Heal is actually on the author's website:

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/how_to_help_11-06-10_final_pdf-.pdf

Dare2Trust posted 7/17/2014 00:27 AM

BeyondBelief,

I read your profile - and you stated your WH is an Associate Pastor. Is your PASTOR aware of WH's affair - and the tremendous medical conditions you've been dealing with?

Reading this post: The latest narrative between you and your WH...I found myself shaking my head in "DISBELIEF."
I really didn't know who I felt the most compassion for: YOU or your HUSBAND???

This really was not any type of "constructive conversation" for either one of you.
You were constantly "firing questions" at your WH at such a rapid pace...that he didn't have the chance to answer you....EVEN IF HE DID WANT TO GIVE YOU AN HONEST ANSWER.

I'm certainly not trying to defend your WH...I'm simply saying: This is not a constructive manner to have a discussion; and it can't be good for you -- mentally or emotionally.

I'm also concerned about your young daughter: She been through so much - seeing you so very ill and trying to help you as you recover.

I sincerely suggest: You and your husband need a Marriage Counselor to help both of you with communication skills - so you can more easily have these AFFAIR DISCUSSIONS - and have your questions answered honestly. You DO DESERVE THE TRUTH.

AND - your husband's disgraceful, hurtful affairs may be a DEAL-BREAKER for you. That's your choice.

I'm sincerely sorry for the extreme pain you are going through.

Pages: 1 · 2

Return to Forum List

© 2002-2018 SurvivingInfidelity.com ®. All Rights Reserved.     Privacy Policy