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So... I read a thread today in the Wayward Spouse Forum that has my feathers just a little ruffled! And... since there was a stop sign on it, I couldn't post as a BS. This person (a WS) was talking about forgiving his/her BS. OK so I do understand that the problems in a marriage should be owned 50/50 by both people...but what I don't get, is does that WS understand that WE as BS could have/ & most of us probably would have liked to have done the same thing they did??? Go out & have an affair and hide our problems in someone else's arms?? In someone else's bed?? I'm sorry...no really I'm not...I don't buy their excuses! There were times I wanted to do the same thing in my marriage, but I didnt! I honored my vows! IMHO...this is a crock of shit! A fucking copout! Own your own shit as they say on here people!

I have no patience for any WS who doesn't take 100% ownership for their A.

but.........

most of us probably would have liked to have done the same thing they did???

Yikes! ....think you might have gotten this part wrong. No offense, but the idea makes me sick.

I wouldn't worry too much about what the waywards post. That particular wayward is fairly new and the other waywards will set the record straight on who is actually responsible for cheating in the relationship.

Believe it or not, the wayward forum is a very important one and many a wayward has become a former wayward and a better spouse because of that forum. Most of the waywards in it are extremely good at taking responsibility and showing new waywards why they need to take responsibility for both their actions and for helping their betrayed spouses heal.

If you find yourself triggering when you read wayward posts, you can ask the mods to take away your access to that forum. Many new BS have to do that so they aren't tempted to post on a stop sign post or triggered by new waywards who aren't yet fully taking responsibility.

Hi Trying, I think that most of us had opportunities to do the same as what our WS did to us, cheat, but we didnt. We loved and respected our partners and selfishness and ego are not part of our makeup. Yes fantasy land does play a big part with a lot of cheaters. We all have issues in our relationships however not all of us go and jump into someone elses bed. There are as you know many who blameshift who dont accept responsibility for their infidelity. There are those who will always be serial cheaters, there are those that can never be monogamous. For those wanting to make a go of getting back on track, they will need to own up and wear the responsibility of what they have done. Until they do they will not fully be able to R if that is what their intention for the future is.

Hi Nomistake...No offense taken at all! In fact, what I really should have said & really mean (when not so agitated) is that we all I'm sure had the opportunity to have engaged in an A but chose not too, & that we'd all like to have escaped in one way or another from problems in our marriages. In all honesty though I probably did THINK about what it would be like to have an affair back then. (That was 25 years ago so I don't really remember for sure)...but...I was also very committed to my marriage & my morals & what I thought of myself (and still do) were/are above doing such a thing. I thought my husbands were the same. This is part of what has hurt so much!

Tears...I have actually found the WS forum very helpful in the past & found that most WS on it ARE remorseful! And yes from reading on it, they usually do set those not so remorseful straight about a lot of things. Guess that's why I found this one a little disturbing as it didn't seem like the "norm" I guess...

Amanda, you are SO right! Cheating is just not a part of our makeup! It's not ME for sure! I have a hard, hard time understanding how anyone could cross that line, especially when they have other options!

Most of the way wards that take the time to post actually are remorseful or they would not be there. They are pretty good at calling out someone who tries to blame shift on that forum.

Some may be posting just take themselves feel like they are doing something right, but they do get pretty good advice.

i didn't like that thread either. but i think i understand it.

some waywards, maybe all, demonize their BSs in order to justify their affairs. once they stop the affair they have this long laundry list of grievances against their BSs that enabled them to do what they did.

they need to forgive all these perceived problems that their BSs have to get to the root of their problems. "It's not that my BS leaves the lid up on the toilet and doesn't give me flowers anymore that caused my affair. Those problems really aren't that bad. i forgive him for those little things. And they certainly don't justify what *I* did."

at least that's what i think they mean.

I read this post also and was trying to understand the mindset.

I kind of went in a very strange direction. I thought about if I had betrayed wh there would be a whole lot that I would have to forgive him for. I was thinking about pre-a.

He was verbally abusive, did the bare minimum around the house. Got fired from 2 jobs and collected unemployment, sat home and did nothing. I worked 48 hours a week and had to do all the cooking, cleaning and yard work. If I tried, ever so gently and tactfully to ask for help, he would shut me down, "okay, okay, I get it, you don't need to make me feel like shit"

The list goes on and on. It made me see that he was the one that was not invested, he was the one that took and I gave.

Then I thought, if anyone in this marriage should have felt unloved and in need of "more", it should have been me!

So, if I were the one that had an a, I would have a lot to forgive him for. But, I did not, I was invested and wanted a better relationship with him.

This is all so twisted.

Badhurt...I do agree with you that MOST WS that post in that forum ARE remorseful and get/give good advice in it. It was just that particular one that blew me away! However, since I've read some of the replies to mine, I am seeing what people are saying...that WS (or at least some) especially during the A, use these grievances to justify what they are doing!

Mike7. ..Thank you for your post. I'm beginning to see what you & others are saying about the WS, that they use these grievances as a way to justify what they were ddoing. My first reaction to that thread was "Are you KIDDING me? YOU need to forgive BS BEFORE you can ask for BS to forgive YOU"....It really got under my skin.:(

Why the Stop Sign? I AM the BS and only found out about the A 10 months ago. I don’t understand???

I appreciate the brutal honesty. It's better than more lies, even if it's not what I want to hear. I wish more of the "waywards" (never liked that word) would be more brutally honest. If that's the thought process that's going on, it's better to be aware of it. It can only help to know how your own "wayward" might be thinking.

It's been my experience that I learn more from people who don't think like I do than I learn from people who think the same way as me.

Trying2,

The stop sign comes up for everyone in this forum as a reminder that only a BS is allowed to post in it. It stops waywards from posting in here. It's very similar to the stop sign in the Wayward forum except that in the JFO forum, it comes up on every post not just when we choose for it to. Waywards are never allowed to post in JFO.

Each forum has a description if you click on forums to the left. The rules of each forum are explained there. If you click on Guidelines, the rules of the site in general are explained.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 10:04 PM, July 20th (Sunday)]

Take what you need and leave the rest. There are many WS on this site that do the heavy lifting. Ignore the stuff that might trigger you and dig around a little over there. I have immense respect for the work that many of them have done, and the help they offer to those of us that they don't even know.

I've just recently allowed myself to read in that forum. I'm starting to understand their need to vent and gain direction. I actually even posted for someone I feel compassion for. I think that forum is a grift. Understanding the other side, seeing other WHs say the same thing as mine and know they're anonymous and most likely mean it. It helps me to see how little if anything the ap really meant. It helps me understand they really do love their spouses but compartmentalized everything. These ops were objects to most of them in an attempt to feel good. Right hand, left hand or ap. Not much real emotion for any. Some try to convince themselves they care about the ap to try to feel better about using them. I've learned a lot. Not always the case but seems pretty much if the time it is. Low self esteem on the waywards side...

forgiving his/her BS.

Monster was such a *grand* guy that he forgave me for all kinds of imagined transgressions.

Most of the way wards that take the time to post actually are remorseful or they would not be there.

Nope. That reminds me of the 'counselor bias'.....that a person is in counseling because s/he actually *wants* help. This is just not true in my experience. Monster went to counseling and posted in the Wayward forum for the sole purpose of getting people to agree with him that *I* was the problem.

Hi

I have to admit I have read other forums involving WS or AP trying to make sense of all this.

The more I read their forums, the more I realise they have a twisted view of reality. If you think your WS spouse has twisted thinking wait until you start listening to AP thinking.

My conclusion, try not to blame yourself or accept any crap. Just point to the front door and tell them to us it. A marriage is not a prison sentence. Both partners are to meant to work on it. When one doesn't, they should get the fuck out

Never try to understand dysfunction with a functional mindset, it just does not work.

Think of it trying to get a point across to someone that doesn't understand the only language you speak.

For most, this is a process. A long process. Vanity is something every person has at one time or another (If I feel or think this way I must be "right."). This holds especially true to the lies we tell ourselves to justify our behavior.

For every grievance my W had about our M I had two. While her perceptions were often not accurate, some were. I was willing to listen as long as she was willing to listen to mine. It was quite a shock to her. "Cheating" was not the only thing on that list. In her eyes she was a "perfect," W. When she asked why I never said anything I had to remind her of all the times I did. She realized she had no justification in doing what she did. She tried to "convince" me that she was "justified," but I was able to refute each one. That was the start of a horrible realization for her. I to this day say, "She did this to herself. I am going to be free one way or another." There is real power in being able to get to that point.

I think I saw her spirit break the day she "got," that her cheating was one of many things that made me unhappy. (Although, a big "one.") The realization comes on it's own that we were in the same M and did not decide to be unfaithful. Therein lies the "reward," of being faithful. A WS healing sometimes has to break their bones before they can be set and healed properly.

It is a slow realization, but a realization none-the-less that nothing in the M was the reason for cheating. Hence the "choice" to cheat.

Once this mindset shatters that is often when the WS really begins to "hit rock bottom," and see the person who "caused" this looks at them in the mirror every day. Other people close to them don't look at them quite the same way either. If they were concerned about a D before, well you just gave your spouse a get of M free card for life by cheating on them. For what ? To passively aggressive "teach them a lesson ?" Revenge for any grievance pre Dday or post Dday ends up hurting the person trying to get even.

Not all WS can get to this point and honestly those who can't aren't worth keeping as a spouse.

I get why this upset you. It has taken me a long time and a lot of reading and exploring to see things this way. Keep at it. Time does help, but it is what you do with it that matters.