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Something I wonder about and I'll be honest, I'm trying to be self-preserving on this one.

During the A, OW made my WH feel like he was a super hero. She flattered him, stalked him, basically made him believe he was the greatest man she had ever known. I think he believed she was sincerely in love with him because he was just that awesome.

From where I sit, she was pretty clearly out to have his baby and his money. I think she planned the pregnancy and planned to stay a secret. She was hoping he would give her money on the side, and never tell me she or OC existed. She preyed on him like she'd memorized the playbook. She didn't want a boyfriend or a baby daddy - just a paycheque.

Early on I said a few things to him about how he had been played - he seemed kind of devastated at the thought that she hadn't actually been enamoured with him, and that perhaps HE had been the one that was used. Like, "I risked my entire marriage, family and self-respect, for someone who was FAKING?" The A was solidly about ego stroking for him.

Now, a year later, we rarely speak of her except when we have conversations about OC. She ignored our request for a paternity test to set up child support/custody, so she is still a person kind of just looming out there. When she comes up, I always feel a little unsure about how to talk about their "relationship". Was she in love with him? Did she cry her eyes out over him? Was he just a middle aged man with "sucker" written all over him? I really have no idea.

Not sure even what my question is. I wonder if I emasculate him or make him feel like REAL fool in my eyes if I continue to speak as though she was just using him. As far as how he feels he appears in MY eyes, is it better for him if I think she really was smitten with him, or if I think he got played?

It's not about what HE thinks, but about what he thinks that I think... if that makes sense. He really is completely indifferent to her and doesn't care what she thinks of him, and he has no desire for anything resembling flattery or ego stroking. I think he would find the entire question ridiculous because he never reflects on the A from that perspective.

Does it matter after the fact what the APs motives were, and do I end up looking pathetic if I say disparaging things about her to him?

I'd hope he didn't care what her motives were. I'd hope he'd just be disgusted thinking about the whole thing.

I've thought about motives a lot. I'm not sure what ow wanted, sometimes I think she just liked him and she's stayed quiet during their LTA. She never contacted me or as far as I know has pressured him but Maybe just didn't know if she has. We have no money, she has more than we do, he's had a vasectomy, so no baby plans. I think she was content with whatever time he could give her. There was,a time after DD1 I saw her and she looked upset, had red swollen eyes so maybe she was afraid it would end.

Your ws prob does feel kind of used. He may have believed she really cared about him.

I know for a fact EAP was going to get pregnant on purpose. She thought he had a lot of money... And we did. Until we spent *my* trust fund. But it had been GONE months before she tried to dig her claws in.

We've discussed her motives. He doesn't like to, for the same reason. It makes him feel stupid.

WHs AP wanted protection, power and professional gain.

This is a woman who, in her previous jobs, was gettg poor evaluations and losing her positions. All of a sudden when she works under WH she becomes the bomb dot com? GTFOH. I found out from an insider on the job that WH let her run amuck, bullyg staff, etc. i even heard the way she spoke to him and he allowed it. Very disrespectful.

WH found ways to get her out of trouble, found ways to get her pocket padded w overtime, and even put his neck on the line for her to get her job locked in after probation. WHs own supv didnt like her and wasnt happy he approvd her appointment, told him AP was 'bringing him down'.

His feelgs clouded his judgment. He was vulnerable bcuz of problems in our M. She got to him in subtle ways that i tried to warn him abt early on. She was inappropriate from the beginning.

Her BS said, 'i know my wife. she saw an opportunity and went for it'. It had nothg to do w WH, he could have been anyone and OBS struggles w the fact that she may do it again at another job w another man in a power position.

I told WH that she doesnt love him. Even before i had proof of the affair, i knew in my heart that he was too far in. He was a fool, let himself get caught up and risk it all, for what?

I wonder if me actually saying it to him increases his humiliation in front of me. It is perhaps a ridiculous thing to worry about. He already feels pathetic all on his own - does he really need to know that I think he got played? Sometimes I just want to say it, but I don't. I tell him OW was ugly and I wonder how he could even be tempted by her. But I feel like that makes ME look pathetic instead of her.

I guess, knowing that the A was never about the AP, I have to wonder why this would even come up? Ugly, gorgeous, thin, fat, no teeth or Miss Universe, the A happened because of something wrong with your WS. Since that's the case, why is she a topic at all?

I promise I am not a complete asshole but during the time of the events below my asshole index was off the charts.

My XWW actually used to sit around crying about her AP. I told her he was using her but she didn't believe it. And since it was her coworker I had no way to verify NC which of course she never was NC. Per my XWW, I just didn't understand how much they just "got" each other. I was still playing the pick me game back then and hadn't realized she was unremoresful and that I was in my own BS FOG.

Let's just say that I had an absolutely fabulous time LMFAO in her face when she came home in tears after she found out that her wonderful married AP was also fucking other women in the office. I freely admit that at the time I did not feel bad at all about it either. She didn't feel bad moping around the house "missing" OM so I didn't feel bad helping her feel very stupid about it. I stayed way to long after that but eventually I filed for D. If you are trying to R and your WS is trying and owning their shit then yeah maybe don't rub it in too much. My XWW was unremoresful and I was pissed off.

You didn't sign up for this shit which includes a potential OC yet you stayed so he needs to suck it up. IMO, he needs to learn to deal with your occasional bouts of frustration. Until I filed I had to deal with the AP still trying to contact my XWW, sending her flowers to our house with cryptic messages, a crazy other betrayed spouse that harassed my XWW and sent ME emails about my kids. I asked for none of that shit yet my XWW dumped that nice smelly turd right at my feet and expected me to eat it. Fuck that noise!

Just my 2 cents.

@painfulpast It is only an issue for me because there is an OC. I don't know when or if or how she will pop back into our lives, but she was a very aggressive stalker pre-A. I suppose I feel some need to not set myself up for a bad situation later on. If maybe one day, after listening to me crap all over her for years, he feels some small need to vindicate himself in that area and prove that she really did luuuurve him.

As I said, it's a non-issue for him. The thought of ever seeing her again makes him want to hurl. He could care less about her motivations. I bring her up sometimes because I want to be sure he understands how gross his AP choice was, in case she comes back. Obviously, she knows what his weak spots were. They haven't been tested since the A.

[This message edited by plainpain at 1:56 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]

My FWH's MOW wanted a way out of her M. She didn't want to file for D because her BH was a SAHD and thought that if he filed then she wouldn't have to support him (yes...she wasn't too bright). According to her STBXBH, she also hinted at wanting to have another child because he had a vasectomy after their 4th child. She should have done her research before dropping trou because my FWH also had a vasectomy after our DD was born.

My FWH literally gets physically ill whenever we discuss her. I enjoy his discomfort. I guess that makes me an uncaring bitch.

She is a broken bitch whose marriage was "tense" and who was frustrated with her husband's inability to fill the holes in her soul. Like WH, she blamed her spouse for her own dissatisfactions.

They were two peas in a pod. Both felt completely entitled to hurt their spouses. Both felt completely entitled to portray their spouses as monsters who harmed them. Both felt completely entitled to cheat, and to take their affair underground when discovered. They "deserved to be happy," after all. (Neither seems capable of happiness, I should add. Seriously, they are pathological malcontents.)

Their motives were largely the same. OW had a slightly different tack than Trac-Fone, who love bombs to get his ego kibbles: she liked to use a good bit of superiority to keep WH in check. She liked to be disapproving--of his lack of financial acumen, about his failure to have traveled the world before "settling," as she had (as though this somehow brought any sort of satisfaction to her miserable life), of any failure she could perceive (and he has PLENTY). She really was not very nice to him at all, much of the time. She was demanding and disapproving. And this was perversely comfortable for him. In fact, I think one of the gaping holes she filled was that left by his cruel, disapproving mother. She was comfortable to him, in that way.

But the glue that held them together was that they both were immature brats addicted to ego kibbles--there was nothing deeper than that, ever.

Not even the true love, star-crossed-lovers-who-would-have-been-if-only-Solus-hadn't-always-been-in-the-way fiction they created. (We started dating in high school. They were "friends" in the sense that they crossed paths sometimes, and might have said hello in the hallway. Somehow, that translates, in Unicorn Skittle Land, to having been forced apart by me. Which is laughable, since even then he was more than happy to deny our relationship and cheat if it suited; we didn't go to the same schools and I now know he got away with a ton.)

I talked to my husband a lot about it.

She started talking to him after he got promoted to a manager position.(She told him she always thought he was "stuck-up". He took it as a challenge to show her that she was wrong. I was like "she insulted you? And you were ok with that?") I suppose, for her, being "associated" with the manager was like being part of the management team. The one and only time I met her she babbled on about her illustrious father-in-law (never met the guy, and never even heard of the guy), how high he was in his company, all the decisions that he could make... Kind of, she was part of the decision team in his company. Yep, she is a nothing, and thinks that by being associated with people higher up than her in the food chain, she's being a somebody. What a way of thinking.

I also put my husband right on the fact that no, she didn't care about him. If she would have, she would have gone to see his presentation that he gave to the team. If she would have cared, she would have not texted him the whole day, asking what he was doing, telling him that she's bored and can he call her (seriously, what are you supposed to do at work, apart from working?.

She was just after a big ego stroke. Nothing else. Yes darling, you were taken for a mug. How do you feel now?

If maybe one day, after listening to me crap all over her for years,

I understand your point, but I don't think I expressed mine well. I meant why 'crap all over her' since she isn't the issue? He did what he did with whomever was willing because he was broken. If that's the case, why crap all over her? I'm not saying you should like her (and I promise, I despise fWH's OW), but how gross or amazing she was doesn't matter, since she doesn't matter.

Does that make sense? I totally get your loathing of her, trust me, but why waste energy on that with WH? His brokenness is the issue, not the breathing mound that he chose to use to express that brokenness.

Or do you want to be sure that WH thinks the same so that, if she does reappear, he isn't interested in 'proving' that she really cared?

[This message edited by painfulpast at 3:59 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]

Early on, I would get frustrated with WH because was still in the fog about certain things, one was both of their motives/reasons. I would use the SI saying of "broken attracts broken" and he would defend that he wasn't broken. When the fog lifted he felt like such a fool. He realized he used her and she used him. He hates to speak about it now, because he embarrassed that he is such a textbook cliche, girl with daddy issues and mid-life crisis guy. Our MC calls these A their "bread and butter", nice eh?

In his deranged, over-worked, selfish head, he thought he was "George Clooney of his work place". (Those are his words. ) He was filled with so much entitlement that he thought all these young women swooned over how sexy, powerful, and successful he was. He felt all he needed to do was "snap his fingers" (again his words) and they would come running. So one day he snapped his fingers and yep, one responded immediately and threw herself at him. He didn't question it, after all how could she not throw herself at him, he was George Clooney after all! He figured since she was young, she wouldn't be thinking about an actual relationship, just casual sex.

Just like him, she had red flags everywhere, but of course, neither were secure enough with themselves to see their faults instead it was easier to talk up each other and put everyone else down. He knows how creepy it looks now and that he was being used to fill the gap of her father's abandonment. Her father was a serial cheater and left her family when she was a teenager, so per the chats she felt that OWs have all the power, marriages don't last, and cheating just is part of life. She was actually surprised that this was the first time WH had cheated. Also, she was very driven and needed to prove she was successful, so why not cozy up with her mentor? She had a desperation to be his mistress and went 200mph. I think she would have been very willing to take my place as well, as she wanted to roll back the clock 10 years and WH not have kids.

In their minds it was such a practical solution to their problems, a win-win for all.

eta: When my WH realized he was not "men of men" but an emotionally immature man with extremely low self-esteem with inadequacy issues, it was humbling and humiliating. He will speak about it now, but there was a time that the shame was just too much for him to handle.

[This message edited by ILINIA at 5:08 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]

My fWH and I both understand that he was played and that whore was after our assets and it tried to get preggers too. Even said it probably was preggers and laid bombshell it had 7 kids by 4 men. My guess is each kid was conceived to manipulate a man and get money. But OW was overconfident as it was too old. My fWH only effed her once successfully and when he said he felt guilty and that they weren't compatible sexually OW said she was preggers. He demanded p test and it wasnt.

Anyway I personally believe that its good for the Ws to totally get how they were used and played etc if it happened that way. This will help them to heal more completely as they face the entire truth and not a sugar coated version.

We joke about OW and both despise it. He is repulsed by the thought of OW and so we are united aginst desperate stalker bunny boiler.

[This message edited by whattheh at 4:57 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]

@painfulpast Yes, your last sentence is exactly right. I want to make sure he feels the same so that if she comes back he's not tempted to prove anything to himself. I just wonder if I'm shooting myself in the foot. Honestly, my feelings about her at this point are mostly benign, but I have panic attacks and I get terrified of being lied to again... blah.

@ILINIA I reread your comment and I feel like we married the same guy. I think, upon reflection, this really is my issue as a BS. Part of him wanted to have an A and part of him didn't. He kept telling her to go away and she wouldn't. After a certain point, he said he felt like he owed her sex because she had worked so hard to get him. Of course, that was fog talk - but he said he felt like she had him under a spell. So I worry that perhaps she does have some magical kavorka that he can't resist.

I asked him last night if he thought he would have been tempted by her if he wasn't so broken. He said, "I really don't think so." Which wasn't an emphatic "no", and so I was sorry I asked because I didn't want to get into one of those stupid conversations about semantics. As a BS I am thinking, "oh, a husband poaching 21 year old drug dealer with Daddy issues, a chronic illness, a potty mouth and herpes MIGHT have been tempting to you if you were not emotionally damaged???" On what planet????

I was the WS that really thought (during the EA and PA) that I was the best thing the OW had ever experienced. Even though I could have been her father I told myself I was giving her the best she had ever had and she was quick to tell me the same thing. Now that reality has set in I can see she was playing me and my ego to get a career position and possibly a baby. I was a fool and I deserve it every time my BS tells me that. I realize my predisposition to be a repeat offender so her telling me to go stand naked in front of a mirror and really see what I look like is more than deserved for what I’ve done to her. You’re not there to protect your husband’s fragile ego. I don’t know but if you’re situation is anything like ours your holding back may be the worst thing you can do. I know that my wife is the most honest, loving and sacrificial person I have ever known and I’m forever blessed that she is willing to not kick me out of the boat for what I’ve done.

(((Regrets))) Thank you so very much for that.

One item caught my attention and I related to it, so I'll chime in here if I may. The 'middle aged man' thing hit a chord with me. My WSO is 62 and OW is 37. He's been with her a couple of times now which makes it harder for me (I'm 61) to believe it wasn't about me (although I know it wasn't). This OW has obvious 'daddy' issues. I know this from a couple of things WSO has told me. At one point in a heated discussion after DD #3 I blurted out to him "WTH would a woman her age want with a man your age if she wasn't looking for a ticket?" Now, after this many betrayals I'm feeling entitled to be a little crabby , I think, but after a few minutes of thinking about it I apologized to him. I told him that I had no right to judge another person's motives when I know nothing really about that person. She may very well have seen the very same things I see in him and love in him. The same things that keep me trying to work on our relationship. He is a handsome, charming, and loving person. He is responsible and caring and those are qualities I admire and she may well have also.

It's not weakness in me that made me apologize for a hurtful statement. I felt that since I had, after DD, made the agreement with him to stay and work through 'our' problems that it was unfair of me to be intentionally hurtful, although, my intent was not to be hurtful. He is working very hard at earning back my trust and making me feel whole again. If ego kibbles are what he was looking for when he sought her out.... I'll make sure I'm the one handing them out.