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WW has different interpretation of NC than I do and need advice.

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PBST2 posted 8/6/2014 14:51 PM

For those that haven't been following my story, my WW continues to work closely with her AP (PA ended on 6/18, EA supposedly ended on 7/3). She reluctantly agreed to look for a new job in early July, but in a moment of weakness I agreed to "try" to reconcile while she kept her job with AP (I made no promises). Many of you told me this was a big mistake, and I'm starting to agree.

As part of the terms for R I required that my WW send a NC email to her AP stating that all contact going forward would be restricted to what is absolutely necessary for business. She could have very easily just told him to ignore it. I have discovered recently that the contact between them has gone beyond that, but nothing too egregious. I am conflicted about what to do. Here are some relevant details:

I discovered that she has initiated non-business banter and interaction with him:
- She shared with him a personal fitness accomplishment that she's proud of.
- She told him she found a silly self-deprecating greeting card that would be appropriate for him to give to her.
- She brought him back his favorite kind of cookie when she went out for lunch one day.
- There was a silly exchange between them in which I believe she hinted at sexual innuendo, and his response indicated that he was biting his tongue because he knew better than to go there.

She has been telling me about some non-business interaction between them and explained the circumstances, but none of these incidents were mentioned. We just had a brief conversation in which I basically accused her of lying to me about the nature of their interaction, and she's holding firm that she's doing "a really good job of not communicating with him". She points out that they don't have a clue what is going on in each others' lives, that they both realize that subject is off-limits. I'm struggling with how to proceed, because I don't want to reveal my source of information. If I mention any of the specific details, she'll know how I found it. If I don't mention the specifics, she's going to continue to insist that she's told me everything.

I feel like I should tell her tonight that she needs to find a new job or I'm withdrawing my commitment to R, but I fear if I do this she will be the one to withdraw and she will claim that I'm pushing her away. She will tell me that I'm acting irrationally and she's doing everything I've asked. It will be a very uncomfortable situation for both of us.

The alternative is that I trust that she can keep her friendship with AP essentially as superficial (that she will be respectful of boundaries and walls and windows concept). I think she honestly believes she can do that, but at the same time she has admitted to me that it would be easier for her if he weren't there every day, and that it will probably take longer for her to "get over him" when she continues to see him every day. But her rationalization is that whether he is there or not, she will definitely be able to get over him.

It seems like the answer is staring me in the face, but I'm afraid of upsetting the apple cart as we try to repair our marriage.

[This message edited by PBST2 at 2:53 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

rachelc posted 8/6/2014 14:58 PM

Get over him? She's still in the affair.
Job or marriage. Her choice.
They say around here you have to be willing to leave the marriage to save it,
But I understand where you're at. It's very difficult,

TheIrishGirl posted 8/6/2014 15:00 PM

None of that is okay. Tell her you know she is carrying on contact with AP beyond what she has shared with you, and she can leave her job, or leave her marriage.

Eta: also, she is still emotionally invested if she saw a card that made her think of him. Unless Hallmark has started making cards that say "when I think of the day we met, I wish I'd been but by a bus instead"

[This message edited by TheIrishGirl at 3:01 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

DrJekyll posted 8/6/2014 15:06 PM

from a WS perspective - if thats ok

I still work with an AP. dday was Jan 1. I have been to 5 job interviews trying to GET OUT. I inform my BS of any contact including work related communications. I do not say HI, I do not ask how her day is. Nothing. your WS does not sound remorseful from my wayward perspective.

What to do about it? I don't know. I will leave that to the BS here. But I think you have a clear idea of what NC should be. And she is obviously doesn't care.

hopingforhappy posted 8/6/2014 15:07 PM

Bringing him cookie? What possible business purpose could that have? She is not abiding by her agreement, so she needs to get a new job. Job or marriage--exactly correct advice.

5454real posted 8/6/2014 15:08 PM

I feel like I should tell her tonight that she needs to find a new job or I'm withdrawing my commitment to R, but I fear if I do this she will be the one to withdraw and she will claim that I'm pushing her away. She will tell me that I'm acting irrationally and she's doing everything I've asked. It will be a very uncomfortable situation for both of us.

Nope, no threats. Instigate the 180, no convo's that don't involve kids or finance. Go completely *dark*. She is playing you for a fool. Get yourself to a better place. See your lawyer.

You won't push her away, she's already gone.


Schadenfreude posted 8/6/2014 15:10 PM

Those things she's done are not normal coworker actions. Sorry. I think she's fishing to see,if he's interested in Round 2.

They don't discuss family issues so it's not an A? That's wayward thinking like it was just a kiss, we just went to lunch together,,and all the other slippery slope actions she is quite familiar with.

Getting a new job won't make her forget that he exists. Having NC will. And right. Ow, she's far from NC. Her treats to him let him know she's,thinking of him and are attempts to keep him thinking of her.

Tell The other spouse about these flirtations. She's your best ally

Persevere19 posted 8/6/2014 15:29 PM

Absolutely agree that she is still at least emotionally invested. You don't have to tell her your sources. Tell her you need her to change jobs for your healing. The WS should be willing to do anything neccisery to help the BS heal.

You don't need the pain having to wonder what they are doing. Is she thinking of him. Which she obviously is if she bought him a cookie.

You set the boundaries on how you want to be treated. Is she willing to leave her job for you? The answer shoul be yes. If she can't right away, do t forget a very useful tool as the polygraph. My WH takes it every 4 months because his AP works for the same company but moved away to another state. I ask on the poly" have you had any contact with AP that you have not told me about? ( he has a 24hr rule to tell me). Have you had any unproffessional contact with AP?

I need the poly for my sanity. You do what you need, not the WS. Sorry for your pain that seems to endure.

Skan posted 8/6/2014 15:33 PM

That's not work behavior. That flirting. Pure and simple. She's flirting with him and both of them are actively engaged in inappropriate behavior. Cookies and cards? That would be TOTALLY unprofessional behavior even IF they had not had an A.

edited because I forgot which forum I was in.

[This message edited by Skan at 3:33 PM, August 6th, 2014 (Wednesday)]

PeaceLove187 posted 8/6/2014 15:40 PM

Are you ready to believe that you would be okay without her? That life would go on after divorce and probably even be better than it is now? She has broken the terms of R and needs to know that is not okay. If you need time to adjust to the idea of separation, then the 180 makes sense to me. Take care of yourself until you're ready. But she's proven the desire to protect you isn't inside her yet and while that may come in time, it's unlikely to develop while she's still trying to be her AP's friend. And AP's friend is the best case scenario, since very often the A just goes underground after D-day.

In my opinion, you should talk to a lawyer and begin the process of separation or divorce. You need to convince her disrespecting the marriage is not an option and that you are ready to move on with your life. Maybe that will mean divorce and maybe she will finally get her head out of her rear end, but working with her AP is an extremely difficult path toward R and she's not showing the strength to follow it. Something needs to change.

Good luck. And hugs.

atsenaotie posted 8/6/2014 15:45 PM

So what HAS she done since dday to fix the M and resolve her issue(s)?

...but I'm afraid of upsetting the apple cart as we try to repair our marriage.

Avoiding conflict is never good for the marriage or relationship. How can you repair a marriage based on you not having your needs and wants addressed or even talked about?

I feel like I should tell her tonight ...

You have told her everything she needs to know. Further, if she were truly interested in ending the A and saving the M she would be proactively doing things.

Please re-read my posts about "not divorcing" if you want to continue to hold out hope for R. From what you are posting you are not in R. you are in fence-sitting, cake eating, rug-sweeping, limbo.

craig2001 posted 8/6/2014 15:46 PM

I discovered that she has initiated non-business banter and interaction with him:
Still an affair.

What about the English words NO CONTACT does your wife not understand. This is flirting, friendly and an affair.

And worse of all, this is completely and totally disrespectful to YOU.

She has been telling me about some non-business interaction between them and explained the circumstances,
Maybe she would also like to punch you in the gut some more.

If this were me, she would end her job today...if financially possible. Otherwise I would be looking through craigslist and every other job board and find her a new job, since she seems incapable of doing so.

She is not trying one bit to help you heal. And she apparently does not want to end the affair.

Do not reveal your sources as you will continue to need them, since she is also lying or at the very least she is lying by omission.

You are afraid of upsetting the apple cart. She doesn't get it at all.

Has she read any of the books yet like Not Just Friends so she can finally realize what the hell she has done here.

I did forget though, is this OM married, is he her boss or are they just coworkers?

PBST2 posted 8/6/2014 16:00 PM

She is about 2/3 of the way through "Not Just Friends". The only thing she has offered to talk about from the book is some of the marriage building / communication activities. No comments at all about how I might be feeling, what she can do to help, etc.

In response to the question about what she IS doing, here is what I have observed:
- Makes effort to give me a lot of (non-sexual) affection
- Has given me access to all her electronic devices, email accounts, phone, etc. Of course, I haven't asked about her work email.
- She is reading the book "Not Just Friends"
- She has initiated more sex (though still not enough for my liking)
- She has given me verbal reassurances, affirmations of her love for me, has apologized for her actions (though not as much as I would like--I don't think she gets the necessity of repetition)
- She answers all my questions about the A openly and honestly and has been truthful from what I can tell (this latest development aside)

To answer the other questions, OM is a coworker (not a subordinate or superior) and is married. OM's BW has been informed, but I haven't spoken with her since the day after I broke the news to her. We did not discuss how each of us plans to move forward.

Forgot to add, she is accountable for her whereabouts and has been leaving work earlier than normal. She tells me who, what, when, where on the rare occasions she has gone out without me since D-Day.

[This message edited by PBST2 at 4:01 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

FrmrBH80124 posted 8/6/2014 16:09 PM

She told him she found a silly self-deprecating greeting card that would be appropriate for him to give to her.
- She brought him back his favorite kind of cookie when she went out for lunch one day.

I don't do any of these things with any of the females that I work with. This is NOT appropriate.

Others are right: marriage or job.

As the BS you have the right to demand that she fully commit to you and the marriage or you end it. By having the A, she started the process to end the marriage. It's up to you to decide if you want to finish the process. If she keeps this up, the decision is going to be really easy for you.

Rebreather posted 8/6/2014 16:12 PM

Dude, in what world is bringing her AP a cookie NOT egregious???

We have said here over and over and over, you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. At this rate, she is going to half ass you both into divorce.

Tell her, look her in the eye, and tell her you KNOW she is LYING to you. Do not back down. Do not say anything else when she sidesteps. Just repeat, "I know you are lying to me and I will not accept that." And stare her down. If she continues to lie, tell her to pack a bag.

She is still in the affair, because she is having this kind of contact. She is not emotionally divesting herself.

Go big or go home. You still have time to save this, but not if you don't stand strong.

craig2001 posted 8/6/2014 16:32 PM

In a sense, your wife has gotten off far too easily. What consequences has she suffered because of what she has done. I would say none.

I am glad she is acting better towards you, but ignoring the important parts of that book really shows she doesn't get it.

She has answered all of your questions, but did she ever answer why she had an affair? And I mean an honest WHY?

None of that ridiculous, I felt lonely or you were too busy kind of answer either.

She needs to quit her job, for one thing, her continuing to work there is totally disrespectful to you. Plus, she gets to get giggly and send cute cards to the OM as if nothing happened. That needs to stop right now.

She needs to answer WHY she did this with total honesty. Since she has had no real consequences, I don't see anything that will stop her from having another affair down the road if she cannot even see the terrible damage she has done.

When she says she is sorry or when she says she loves you, do you get the feeling she says it to you with the same feelings and emotions she would say it to a puppy dog.

I know that is a strange question, but I finally figured out what bothers me about your situation with your wife.

If she really felt bad about what she did and her I'm sorry meant anything, I would think that even the sight of the OM would disgust her.

Instead she is flirting and chatting with him as if nothing was wrong.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 4:38 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

PBST2 posted 8/6/2014 17:28 PM

Well everyone, I confronted my wife about the lies as soon as I got home. She denied, denied, denied, told me that she had no idea what I was talking about. I told her I knew she was lying, and she again denied. I told her I tried to make it work with her staying at her job with OM, but at this point I can no longer tolerate it. She became enraged with me. Her face turned red, she started cursing up a storm telling me how she has "worked her ass off" to do everything I have asked. She told me "why should I have to quit my job when it doesn't seem like things are going to work about between us? my job is my livelihood!". I told her that her job is a huge impediment to us recovering, and she had no good response. She pressed me on what I was referring to with the lies, and against my better judgment I told her about the cookie thing. Of course, then her focus was on figuring out how I knew about it. She accused me of reading her work email and got even more pissed. She said to me: "all this over a fucking cookie!?". I told her the point was that she's still thinking of her AP, and doing things to make him think of her. Her response was that of course she was thinking of him, that she can't turn off those thoughts like a light switch. She told me she's doing the best she can.

She told me she is so pissed off and fed up with everything, and then she told me "I think you should leave tonight!". I said, "No! why should I leave? I haven't done anything wrong!" So she took the kids and stormed out of the house.

I have to admit I'm second guessing making a big deal out of this. In her current state of mind I think she would welcome D.

Rebreather posted 8/6/2014 17:37 PM

PB, what do you regret making a big deal out of? That your wife is still having an affair? That she is totally unremorseful? Stay.The.Course. Let her be angry (though I would not have let her take the kids).

Not every wayward has it in them to fix their shit and reconcile. And you can't make it happen for them. Let her stew. Give her a chance to be good and pissed off and some time to think. Maybe, just maybe, she'll realize SHE is the fuck up in the situation, not you. Maybe she won't.

I can't guarantee you that our advice will work. But I can 99.9% guarantee you that trying to "nice her back" will NOT work. Our methods serve another purpose; allowing you to look at yourself in the mirror. What's better? Letting your cheating spouse walk all over you? Or standing up and demanding what's right?

The reality is, SHE IS LYING TO YOU. Over and over and over. That's bullshit.

You are early days here. Frankly, I would have filed for divorce over the cookie. I'd go see a lawyer, and educate yourself on the 180.

[This message edited by Rebreather at 5:38 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

918Mama posted 8/6/2014 17:39 PM

You did the right thing. She's just been caught and she is scrambling.

Her response to the whole cookie thing is more fear that someone is giving you information than it is related to the fact that she did anything wrong. Which she totally did.

Stick to your guns. Don't back down. Bring out the 180. Read the book "love must be tough." You are basically opening the cage door for her and letting her decide if she wants to be free or not. The fact that she's so concerned about her work and her livelihood shows her heart isn't in reconciliation anyway.

Help her see what she stands to lose. And you're right to make her leave. But why does she get to take the kids??

craig2001 posted 8/6/2014 17:39 PM

She pressed me on what I was referring to with the lies,
You had her right there. You should not have told her anything else. She was wondering just WHAT you knew and HOW MUCH you knew.

She is doing about everything wrong. She can't turn off her feelings like a light switch.

She is saying ALL the wrong things to make you feel like crap and like second fiddle.

When she again brings up all this for a cookie, tell her no, all of this because she is still friendly with the guy she had sex with and the guy she promised to only keep it business.

And people that continually break their promises are a problem.

Who knows of her affair, do her parents?

Ask her this, if it had been you who was having sex with a female coworker and still worked there and talked and joked around, how would that make your wife feel. Ask her to answer that honestly.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 5:44 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

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