A few of you have encouraged me to post this part of my story. With me being down lately and this event being on my mind, thought I would get it out there. Hopefully let go of it a bit. Before anyone asks, yes MrsYop knows the story and boy was she (and still is to some extent) PISSED.
WTH happened? I was in another country for a week with several coworkers. During this week one of my female COW's became flirty with me. I did not pick up on it at all because I myself have pretty good boundaries and I also have no self worth so I know that no one would be interested in me that way. My 2 friends (male coworkers) noticed and mentioned to me but I thought they were crazy. Plus COW was also hitting on another of our coworkers and going out on "dates" while we were working in that city. I did not reciprocate at all with any "flirting". I did however keep my 2 friends close and would only hang out in a group setting when I knew the two of them would be present. No issues on the trip itself and kept my distance from COW without even thinking about it. I guess she was flirty throughout the trip but I really don't get those signals so...I'll go with what my 2 friends said as later you'll find out that they were correct.
Plane ride home, COW is sitting across the aisle and one row in front of me. Long story as to what happened on that plane but to sum up briefly, she fights with other coworker she was on "dates" with, she wakes me up and bends my ear for 2 hours on her FOO issues, and gets hammered though I never see her drink anything more than oj. I later find out through the border agent that she picked up a bottle of vodka in duty free and was on AD's so that the combination of the two got her really intoxicated.
Next long story short she's getting arrested at the border into the states. Border patrol agent does not want to arrest her and I make the mistake of "volunteering" to give her a ride home (after being asked). I did feel bad for COW and her FOO. Not so much a KISA though and my boundaries were still up. I didn't talk much about myself the entire time and was stand offish. It's after midnight and I wanted to get home to my own family.
There's a lot that happened in those last 2 paragraphs but I'm afraid I would bore you with the details. After what seems like forever we finally find her apartment, but she is too drunk still to get her bags out of my car and then up the stairs to her apartment. All the time she is still going on with her FOO issues and then starts the suicide talk (for those who don't know my brother committed suicide, my mother has attempted suicide twice, and I had suicide ideation throughout my teenage years). I help her into her apartment and BAM. I'm sucked in. She found my weak point. The place where I'm "emotionally susceptible". I don't want to leave her alone, I start asking her questions to make sure she's ok, but I still don't reveal anything about myself. She keeps talking about her FOO and how she wants to find a boyfriend to take her away from her pain. Someone to keep her safe from herself. Says she's dizzy and needs to lie down in her bed but wants to keep talking to me. I still have my jacket on and am ready to bolt at any second. I never even sit down. I never let her get closer than several feet from me. Once she's on the bed and I'm just inside her bedroom doorway she tells me to close the door and asks me to spend the night. When I say no she ups it more and says she wants to fuck me. That no one will ever know about it. I say no a few more times until COW explodes screaming at me to get the fuck out. As in bat shit crazy style.
I get home and wake up MrsYop and tell her almost everything that happened. She's raging pissed at me. Why didn't I just let the border agent arrest her, if she was suicidal I should have called 911, why didn't I let her supervisor take her home, that I really got myself into a bad situation and that she could have started any sort of shit problem she wanted whether real or imaginary, etc, etc etc. I asked myself these very same questions for a long time. Since that night MrsYop and I came up with a plan that if I was ever in that situation again I don't question anything or get involved. I let the border patrol agent arrest or if it's another situation about suicide I call 911. End of story.
But how could I let myself get into a situation that I really wanted no part of? I had no business being in her bedroom in the middle of the night. I really didn't want to be there. It took me a while but I did find my why. I have an emotional vulnerable spot when it comes to suicide. I know that dark place well so I want to help when I can. I've also been programmed by my NPD mom to be easily emotionally manipulated. I can instantly feel a negative emotion from someone else's mood because that's what my mother taught me to do. If she was in a bad place, I had to be in a bad place too. If there is an argument going on with the kids as I walk in the door from work, I instantly become whatever level of anger is going on and I'm right there in the moment. It's not like I even have to work up to it. It doesn't mean I always act on these emotions, but I can instantly feel them which may make me act like I did in COW's apartment. While I thought I had pretty good boundaries, and I think I do with most things, I need to work on getting stronger boundaries with my emotions. Part of my problem is that I'm just now learning what my own emotions are.
I did eventually tell the entire story to MrsYop. I did minimize and downplay COW's advances and said that they weren't serious. That COW was an emotional mess. Which is true, but I did eventually tell her that she flat out asked me for sex. Did I mention that MrsYop works with us too? Yep. All three of us at the same company which is why I minimized at first. Didn't want MrsYop to have any additional stress at work. MrsYop works in a different group and never had to see COW, until 2 months ago when her group moved into my building. Yep. Now she sees COW everyday too. Of course knowing what I know now and with the wisdom of SI, I would not have left out the her asking me to fuck her part. I'm looking COW right now as I type this. She apologized profusely in the days and weeks following this event. We do have to work together and she did actually thank me later for not taking advantage of her in a "weak moment". I do keep her at a distance and most weeks I don't have to talk to her at all but I have asked her if she has gotten help. She is in IC and AA and has been sober for over a year now. She is really trying to turn her life around and recently got engaged. No more flirting with coworkers for her...at least that I've seen. My supervisor and manager here at work know all about that night as I told them first thing Mon morning (minus the her asking me to fuck her part). But I did tell them I was in her apartment and I did get scolded and was told to let the border arrest her next time as they could have used that. Not to put myself in a compromising situation. Right! Couldn't agree more.
I've learned my lesson. I have a plan in place if anything similar should happen again. I know my why. I'm working on fixing myself so that I'm not emotionally susceptible.
My confession for the day. Sorry for the length.
You are a very brave man, and I have a lot of respect for you. Had to think about this before I responded. Still thinking about it, but I wanted to share my first thoughts so you know someone heard. (And Lord knows you've reached out to me when I was in some bad places.) Hits a lot of issues that are mine, so I just feel plain about it--not witty, not funny, just plain.
At first I was all "Not yop, dammit! For the love of Pete...." But that's an understandable knee-jerk, given the environment and my own crap.
I am so glad Mrs. Yop was able to tell you exactly what she thought of that, in the moment. Although I'm sure her anger/disappointment was/is difficult, it's good she was succinct. Yay Mrs. Yop!
All three of us at the same company which is why I minimized at first. Didn't want MrsYop to have any additional stress at work.
Sooo...the above worries me a little. It's not your job to protect her from facts. She's a big girl, and has earned those panties many times over, I am sure. Respect her by giving her whole truths. If ya don't wanna have to tell her something, just don't do it in the first place. Otherwise...confessional time, friend.
I've also been programmed by my NPD mom to be easily emotionally manipulated. I can instantly feel a negative emotion from someone else's mood because that's what my mother taught me to do.
I totally get this. I can walk in a room and know the emotional temp immediately, and I also learned it at my mama's knee. It sounds like an art, but it's really an obstacle. Relating to others seems to me, starts with recognizing your own emotions FIRST, so to react authentically.
I'm working on fixing myself so that I'm not emotionally susceptible
Great goal! One I happen to share. I'm not sure such an enormous shift is possible without a little help, although I'm not one to push IC.
Thanks for sharing a truth that was probably not so easy to post here, of all places.
And, yop? You're alright. Massive things happen to folks. Some go down the dark road. Some choose to turn toward the sun. You're the latter.
Just a ha-penny's worth from an ex-punk.
I have an emotional vulnerable spot when it comes to suicide
We al have some sort of emotional vulnerable spot. At least if we're human we do.
You were already in her apartment when she mentions suicide. As they say in the wayward forum dig deeper. And keep digging till you get to the root of your why.
I'm tripping reading these comments about being hyper tuned into others emotions in the room, I always feel like that, too. I don't have an NPD mother, but I definitely relate to that programmed-for-sensitivity stuff... especially with regard to dark/suicidal emotions.
[This message edited by Splitter at 1:48 AM, August 7th (Thursday)]
I know this is a weird post right? I think most of mine are. This incident has been on my mind lately since it happened in Aug two years ago and I have a work trip coming up next week. Going back to that same city. No, COW is not coming on this trip and even if she was she has behaved herself around me since. That incident went down on a Fri night and I addressed it with her Mon morning. After our work meeting Mon morning I confronted her and let her know my concerns. I showed her my cards a bit with my brother's suicide and let her know why I was so concerned and that next time she spoke about it in the context she was using on Fri night I would call 911. That's when she asked for help and I told her to talk to her management team (we don't have an HR department). She did and seems to have changed herself around.
COW has her own demons and I'm not blaming her for ending up in that situation. Definitely on me and about me. I'm just really pissed at myself that I ended up in that situation and posting about it is sort of a way for me to acknowledge it and maybe to help me get past it. It's also another way for me to hold myself accountable and own my own shit. I have never cheated and the thought has never occurred to me. Being on the front lines of my mother's A(s), all the FOO issues, my brother's suicide, the abuse, it's all intertwined in my head and I associate an A with all of it. A = death in some ways to me. Not gonna happen. I would honestly commit suicide before I ever had an A and that's just not going to happen. But that doesn't mean that I think that I'm above all of it either. Especially after reading here daily. I know I have more issues than "Newsweek" (read that somewhere around here). I've been far from perfect and have done damage to my marriage with MrsYop and am working on being a better person on many levels. One of the many reasons I am here. I never want to find myself in this situation again.
@WB - You are absolutely right about MrsYop being a big girl and being able to handle it. Knowing what I know now (not that this type of incident it ever going to happen again), I would have certainly told MrsYop everything when I got home that night. Told her almost all of it but did not disclose that detail. I think MrsYop sort of knew it anyway even though I didn't flat out say that she asked for sex. 3? or 4? months later when it came up again I told her exactly what was said and of course she was pissed off again and rightfully so but was happy that I added that last detail without her asking. Yes, MrsYop is a grown up and has handled it like a champ here at work. Though I know that since MrsYop has moved into our building, the fact that she now has to see COW everyday doesn't help at all. Yes, I also definitely struggle with my own emotions. Not used to feeling them really. Working on it. "ex-punk" nothing. I see the cadence in which you carry in your posts. You are a true champion through and through and have the right attitude to match. Always a pleasure to hear from you.
@TG - I welcome the 2x4. I think what you are hinting at is the fact that I never should have hid behind my two coworker friends and should have set very clear boundaries with her as to what behavior was acceptable. That should have happened much earlier in the week and if I had done that, I would have already removed myself from the situation well BEFORE it ever would have occurred. Is that it? I did at least address it with COW after the fact on that Mon morning. But probably should have addressed it with her during the first time she tried to flirt with me. Though, I didn't really recognize that's what she was doing.
@Kajem - She started talking about suicide right as we were pulling up to her place. What I had wanted to do was just drop her off on the curb and get the hell out of there. She was drunk out of her mind, almost throwing up in my car, singing loudly, talking about how her father died and the person who ended up raising her had died of breast cancer, FOO, etc. She was a complete mess. Trust me that I wanted to get the hell out of there and going up to her apartment to have to deal with more of this crazy scene is something I did not want. Even when she started talking suicide, not necessarily killing herself at that point, but it was enough to get me to start talking. I brought her bags all the way up to her apartment door and then turned and bolted back outside again. As I was walking back to my car (already back outside), that's when she said she was going to kill herself and stopped me dead in my tracks. I should have called 911 right there. Instead that opened the dialogue up further and I started asking her questions. Again, I'm not a professional and should have just called 911. I'm getting so pissed at myself again writing this. I was gone. I was out. I allowed myself to get sucked in, I walked her back inside talking with her instead of being standoffish as I was previously. We kept talking about it all the way into her apartment. I never mentioned what happened with my brother but was talking about myself and where I was with suicide ideation previously in my life. Looking back I can see that she knew she had me right there. Ugh. I definitely plan on visiting this scenario with my IC in the upcoming months.
@Splitter - I hear ya. Maybe not so much a confession but an admission that I have a weakness and can be manipulated. Right! Going anywhere in her apartment let alone her bedroom is definitely off the deep end. I still had physical boundaries going. Would not let her near me, touch me, come close to me, yet she still got to me on an emotional level. She had me there in her apartment. That's not really her though so much as it is me and that I allowed that to happen. I really don't want someone to have that sort of "power", for lack of a better word, over me.
When she started talking about suicide, it was like I was instantly back to knowing what it felt like to have a gun in my mouth. That dark place. Despair. Knowing that not a person in the world loves you. Some of it was right there in her pain and that's when I think I allowed myself to get pulled in. I even knew she wasn't as far into that dark place or she wouldn't be talking about it. There are two types of people that are suicidal. Those that talk about it. Those that don't. The one's that don't are usually gone and you find out afterwards. The one's that talk are, on some level, looking for help. Doesn't mean that they can't pull it off while looking for help though. I allowed myself to get sucked in and try to figure out which one she was. I should have know what she was and called 911.
But as TG points out with the slippery slope, I never should have been in a position to allow myself to be manipulated like this and had I confronted and put up a boundary earlier that week. I should have let her know I didn't appreciate her behavior from the start. I probably would have been home sleeping in my own bed long before that situation. There are so many mistakes that I can see along the way. So pissed at myself.
Don't be pissed at yourself, learn from it.
[This message edited by tired girl at 9:59 AM, August 7th (Thursday)]
Unless I missed it, I don't see that you had sex with this woman or even cuddled or kissed?
I don't think you were unfaithful. I don't think it classifies as an emotional or sexual affair in any way shape or form.
You did show poor boundaries, and you realized that, told your wife, and are now putting your boundaries in place.
Had my husband did what you did, I would be angry about the boundary thing, but glad he acknowledged it and was working to improve his boundaries.
What you did does not qualify as cheating. Stupidity, yes, but cheating.....no.
[This message edited by seethelight at 10:49 AM, August 7th (Thursday)]
First, the suicide card was a no brainer as to getting me into her apartment and my IC agreed that it did play a major role. However, my counselor asked me questions that revealed more on the suicide aspect. Previously I had called 911 when my mother threatened suicide or when an xltgf faked seizures (long story). Why not call 911 with cow that night too? Why open up to her about my own thoughts on suicide and my own history with it? Why try and figure out if she was really suicidal and not just let the professionals handle it? My C asked me how I felt when I was discussing suicide and how I felt when she told me she was going to kill herself. That night, vs. previous times, I felt despair. I was right back to where I was as a 14yo kid again. When I was with my mother and xltgf I was already dealing with that kind of stuff on a regular basis and probably had safeguards up so I wasn't feeling the same level as despair back then. Turns out I was also avoiding guilt (which I do a lot because I already have so much)that if I did leave and she did kill herself, I'm already full of too much guilt. I was avoiding picking up more in a way.
Now for the things that I had not previously seen. While I was on the plane and cow was going on and on about her issues and FOO, if I would rather have been sleeping, why didn't I sleep and politely stop her? Answer, because of her demeanor with yelling at our other coworker, at the time I saw her as a potential threat to myself. I went with the path of least resistance. If that was my mother talking and I don't listen to her, there would be hell to pay. So I sit there and take it with my mother so that I could avoid the least amount of damage to myself. I did the same with cow on the plane.
Why didn't I let the border agent go ahead and arrest cow? Why did I take on the responsibility of driving her home? Answer, because I would have felt guilty if she spent the night under arrest and she probably would also have lost her job. I was avoiding picking up more guilt.
There's definitely more to it than that but that's the quick and dirty highlights. Been processing since Thu night and been hashing it our with MrsYop.
I really like my new IC. Seeing more results in 3 sessions than I did with months in the last one.
The digging continues...
D-Day, June 10, 2012
I wonder why – if you were not picking up on the flirting, would you feel the need to be in a group of coworkers whenever she was around?
I am certainly not judging, just wondered if you had thought about that?
[This message edited by WhatsRight at 3:52 PM, August 10th (Sunday)]
I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy
I believe that it lies on the path that you knew that she was flirting with you whether is was due to your pals telling you or you actually recognizing it. Doesn't matter. This was a female that was into you. So why engage her further as you did?
I wonder why – if you were not picking up on the flirting, would you feel the need to be in a group of coworkers whenever she was around?
This is one of the exact questions that was posed to me in IC. Answer: after my coworker/friends mentioned it to me I felt uncomfortable. I didn't want to be near her really. That's the biggest part I think that has bothered me the most about this whole thing. If I never felt comfortable with her after the pint where my friends told me she was flirting, how could I have let things go as far as they did. One of the other things that my IC picked up on that confirms how uncomfortable i was, after the plane landed I literally ran to get away. I went up as many rows as possible.
Why didn't I pick up on the flirting and have to be told about it was another question. Answer: I'm not exactly what you would call a ladies man. I don't have any confidence with that stuff. I grew up being told that I was not lovable. That I was worthless. That I'm ugly. I very much still feel that now. My first 3 relationships were all roughly 3 years each and they all pursued me. My 4th long term relationship is MrsYop and is the only woman I ever asked out. I guess I'm sort of oblivious with that stuff. With each relationship I've had, I've had to learn to be seductive to some extent, but that's been within the confines of a relationship where I knew I was already with the person. Just a big idiot I guess?
So why engage her further as you did?
This is the question I started off with. If I was/am uncomfortable with her, why did I allow myself to get stuck in that sitch?
I think I have a good start, but there are so many things about myself that I'm just discovering. I'm sure this sitch will continue to come up in IC again. I do have lines/boundaries in place that I do not allow to be crossed. There was no way in hell I was going to sleep with this woman. I opened myself up to many other potential issues though and that bothers me.
Cow could have said anything she wanted after that encounter. I never want to be in that place again. I will keep digging with all of it.
Answer: I'm not exactly what you would call a ladies man. I don't have any confidence with that stuff. I grew up being told that I was not lovable. That I was worthless. That I'm ugly. I very much still feel that now.
Understand that as you are working through to heal from the damaging messages that left you feeling this way that you most likely will be like a sponge soaking up validating messages which leaves you easily open to be manipulated. Your best bet is to be on high alert when these messages are not from Mrs YOP so that you don't find yourself on a slippery slope or a victim of manipulation.
Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; they’ll scratch you up time and time again but in the end you’re polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless
We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.
I am definitely familiar – personally – with low self-esteem. Maybe you seem unlovable or worthless to people who are interested in a shallow relationship. But your honesty and willingness to learn more about yourself is a very lovable trait in my book! (And I mean that in a totally appropriate way.)
I'm so happy for you that your counselor seems to be good fit – you were getting a lot out of your time with them. I hope you can come to view this incident as a lesson learned – rather than a judgment on your character.
The very best of luck to you!