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TJ from Anyone remember this member, what makes members leave?

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nolight posted 8/10/2014 04:24 AM

For the most part I think that the members of this site are supportive and the advice received here invaluable. There are times though, especially lately; that "advice" is given as gospel without consideration for the posters emotional state with judgement and personal offence given and taken when the poster is simply trying to vent about how they feel.

It's caused me to take a few breaks from this site recently and I'm still uncertain as to my future here, which is sad as this site carried me through my pain. I'm questioning though how safe I feel here at the moment.

As I said earlier, it seems to be a recent trend of cliques, judgement and strong personal opinions of others situations -I hope it doesn't stay, you only need to look at one recent locked post to see this behaviour at play and to see how destructive the need to have the final word from some posters can be to those in pain.

People aren't always here for advice, they need understanding from the devastated community that can sadly empathise and a safe place to vent. Not advice, judgement or comparison to show how poorly they are dealing with a situation compared to others. I worry about how many members and hurting people we lose due to this behaviour.

craig2001 posted 8/10/2014 08:47 AM

I agree and I think many of the people that have been on and off of here for a long time agree. It has gotten to be rude or crude to the extreme in a few instances.

In the JFO area, it is almost always divorce right now and worry later. Or there are crude references to what the WW did which can make images for the BS worse than they normally might be.

There also seems to be a great deal of divorced people on this board outside of the divorce section. Of course someone who was recently divorced due to infidelity is going to be angry and might not see R as an option.

There is the extreme push to divorce right now attitude, without regard to how much divorce costs in real dollars. Lawyers are not cheap.

There also has been some "trolls" on the board lately, but the last one I saw in JFO was taken care of quickly.

2x4s are needed for some of those looking for help, but many comments and advice aren't just 2x4s, they are a bit more.

solus sto posted 8/10/2014 09:04 AM

I do think that, for those who are not yet ready, the advice here can be too much to tolerate. I think this is why many leave. I think many of the same people return when they're in a different headspace. But like any community, it's not for everyone.

I've been here for years--far longer than reflected below. For the first handful of years, I was not receptive to the advice. I was not in a place, emotionally, where I could move forward with the things recommended.

I was not ready. I wish I had been---SI could have spared me a great deal of pain had I been in the right headspace.

I was not there.

But SI --with its MANY voices (which are not nearly as in unison as can feel when you are hearing something you don't want to hear)--is here. It was here when I was not ready. It was here when I was.

When I was not yet ready, I was treated respectfully. I didn't always like what I heard, but my lack of readiness and receptiveness was MY responsibility. Others still tried to help. If it was wrong for me, it was my responsibility to leave. I did, more than once. I lurked for long expanses of time. When I was ready, there was encouragement, but never smugness. There was relief, but never judgment. People cared. They always had.

I am always a little perplexed about the allegations of cliquishness here. I have felt a lot of things, but I have never felt as though there are cliques. I can't even begin to identify a group I'd consider a clique.

I do think there are many oft-repeated truisms. I agree they are not one hundred percent applicable to every situation. They are widely applicable to most--and almost every response to individuals I've seen includes consideration of individual details. We may say, "but your situation is NOT unique!" But that doesn't mean we don't consider the very unique details of a person's story before seeing how is IS like ours. If you read the long, caring responses written, you will not see just a mindless recitation of dogma; you will see individual and thoughtful responses that address individual concerns. You will see great thought given to the details of a situation that make it unique. And then, you will see advice that is tied to a vast body of experience from people who HAVE been there.

No one can make you follow it. I never felt judged when I didn't (and trust me-I was a poster child for what NOT to do). But damn, good advice chafes when you want to hear something else. That somehow, you're the exception. The advice chafes even when given by anonymous posters on a message board who are NOT judging you--just sharing their experience. I think that does drive some away.

The good thing is that, if you decide this is a place for you, and that the information is of value, you will always be accepted. No, not because you accept the dogma and adopt the party line, but because people who really DO remember you, your story, what makes you different will be genuinely pleased you are working toward a healthier, happier life. We'd be great with that no matter how you went about it, really.

ETA: I strongly disagree that there is an emphasis on divorce on SI. While some of us do take that route, many of us worked very hard, first, to R. Central to the SI milieu is the belief that a marriage can survive infidelity. It may not survive other things--but it can survive infidelity. Those of is whose marriages have not survived are not, by and large, angry and bitter--and it's unfair and offensive to be characterized that way.

[This message edited by solus sto at 9:14 AM, August 10th (Sunday)]

krsplat posted 8/10/2014 09:34 AM

I wanted to comment from the perspective of a relative newbie. When I made my first post back in March, I was met by a chorus of voices telling me that mine was one of the worst things they'd read, and that I should run, immediately. It's not what I wanted to hear, and it was a little overwhelming.

BUT those same people also made it clear that they said what they said with compassion, and that it came from their own experience. They had stood in my shoes and wanted to help me. And so I came back, again and again, almost every day for 5 months now.

I feel safest in JFO and General, where I can thrash around and expose my inner crazy and everyone understands and nudges me in a better direction. The folks in Reconciliation have convinced me that it IS sometimes possible to build something decent from the ashes of a ruined M. They have also shown me that it's possible to get stuck in limbo and live in a half-life hell for years, and that I want no part of that. The members in S/D have shown that D is sometimes the ticket to a wonderful new life, and that there is no shame if I decide, for ANY reason, that the A is a deal breaker for me. And also that an A and its fallout sometimes leaves you bitter. There are Waywards that give me hope for humanity, people who admit to being horrid people but who now speak with humility and compassion, and don't let the rug-sweepers get away with self-pity. And other waywards who make me so angry that I have to stop reading the forum for days at a time.

But I've never felt shut out, judged or compared. I've never felt compelled to drink the koolaid or subscribe to a dogma. Over and over, people here say "Take what you need and leave the rest." I can't speak to what it used to be like on this board, but I think it's a healing, life-saving kind of place.

Just my 2 cents.

saturnpatrick posted 8/10/2014 10:08 AM

When I first joined here, I was looking for someone to tell me that I was crazy for being suspicious of my FWW and her friend.

Folks lined up and gave me a serial 2x4 spanking. That was hard. I spent half of my time trying to convince them (really myself) that we were ok and it wasn't really that bad. Sometimes I followed advice.

When her A was undeniable (to both her and me), I stopped posting. I lurked up until a couple of months ago. But I felt totally embarrassed and unqualified to post anything meaningful here since I had been such a fool.

I never left though.

inconnu posted 8/10/2014 10:24 AM

There also seems to be a great deal of divorced people on this board outside of the divorce section.

What, once we're divorced we're supposed to be go to our corner and stay there?

As solus mentioned, many of us who are divorced went through trying to R first. From where we stand now, it's much easier to see the signs of false R. and yes, maybe sometimes some of us are too quick to say "divorce their ass" but just because it comes off as blunt doesn't mean it's not good advice, depending on the situation.

Probably the best advice I got on SI is to take what you need and leave the rest.

Schadenfreude posted 8/10/2014 10:28 AM

Saturnpatrick, you got a PhD from the SI School Of Hard Knocks,,which makes you eminently qualified to post and offer advice. You should lecture in the BTDT department of Ignorance is not bliss.

There are posters following in your footsteps to benefit from your experience.

If that makes you a hard liner, so be it. But they are better of learning from you, aren't they? If nothing else, you can plant a seed in their minds which may someday yield fruit.

And, probably even more important, you are living proof that there is indeed life after WS's A that can turn out better than you'd hoped. You are not a divorce advocate, but you sure are one for realism.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 10:29 AM, August 10th (Sunday)]

ButterflyGirl posted 8/10/2014 10:40 AM

There also seems to be a great deal of divorced people on this board outside of the divorce section.

What, once we're divorced we're supposed to be go to our corner and stay there?

Right?? I'm feeling a little unwanted right now..

I completely agree there have been some insensitive posters lately, even though I couldn't find the thread you were specifically speaking of..

Since I'm from the land of D/S, I don't usually go into R or JFO. And honestly, my initial advice for infidelity IS to put your damn foot down. Not that it has to be divorce right away, hopefully not, but those actions need immediate consequences if anyone is gonna learn, heal or change. I think the first thing the wayward should get is a good kick in the ass..

SI pretty much saved my life, still does, and part of my healing is giving back, and part of my giving back is reading people's stories and looking for UNREMORSEFUL behavior and pointing it out to them. It's not even that I want them to separate or divorce, it's that I want them to at least RECOGNIZE what's going on. And then make an informed decision with their head instead of their heart..

My brother is a wayward, but remorseful and working his damn ass off for his family, in R for years now, giving his wife EVERYTHING she asks for. I must say I am damn proud of remorseful waywards.. It's not easy to "fix yourself."

But when I see people in limbo, making excuses for their waywards, allowing themselves to be "plan B," not even realizing they are STILL being manipulated or emotionally abused or taken advantage of, then I speak up. Maybe I'm too harsh sometimes, but what I really want is to give them the biggest hug ever and find a way to give them some confidence back..

ETA: By the way, there are people in R who sneak down into the D/S forum, and they are ALWAYS welcome and sometimes have the best advice..

[This message edited by ButterflyGirl at 10:41 AM, August 10th (Sunday)]

craig2001 posted 8/10/2014 10:40 AM

What, once we're divorced we're supposed to be go to our corner and stay there
That is not what I said.

There are two main options, reconcile or divorce.

There are too many that believe divorce now and worry later is the answer and for the most part that comes from those that are divorced and they are (understandably) the most in favor or that and the most angry with affairs.

In the early years here, R was the main goal.

The best advice on here for all newbies is to trust your gut and go from there.

One thing that is very noticeable on here in recent years is the level of anger from those betrayed has increased tenfold.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 10:41 AM, August 10th (Sunday)]

Deeply Scared posted 8/10/2014 10:46 AM

In the early years here, R was the main goal.

No...healing has always been the goal of SI. No one advocates one way or the other, in the 12 years I've been here people speak from their own experience. That's the beauty of SI. There is no agenda, there are no products or workshops to sell. It's strictly a place for each individual to find their voice and start the healing process.

One thing that is very noticeable on here in recent years is the level of anger from those betrayed has increased tenfold.

That because the membership and activity level has increased tenfold. No one here is any more or less angry than the members that joined years ago and were fresh in the beginning of discovery.

Perhaps its not the board that has changed but rather *you* that have changed

There also has been some "trolls" on the board lately

I'm almost mad at that comment

Considering how big and how popular this site is...trolls are a minimum for an internet site.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:58 AM, August 10th (Sunday)]

cosmicjoke posted 8/10/2014 10:54 AM

All I know is this is the most amazing and much-needed site. And many of our lives would have been 100% different if we'd had access to such a site (or, even the Internet..!) YEARS ago. Lots of people are isolated from family or others who might give them such advice.. so they have no one to really help them through it. But these folks take time out of their day to give brutally hard-earned advice from their own personal lives-- trying to help total strangers see the light and make better decisions, save them added pain. This is volunteer work at its finest. You could spend a million dollars on therapists and psychiatrists and not learn as much as you could here. And that's not an exaggeration.
And add to that, the mods do a fantastic job of keeping everything civil & keeping the riff-raff out. Am I the only one sick of seeing arguments and bickering and so much nonsense of 99% of the public forums out there..??! Enough already. We are here to discuss one thing- and waste time wandering off onto other subjects, or going back & forth nit-picking each other. So thank you guys for not only providing such a priceless service, but also for doing an extraordinary job helping people feel safe, respected, & keeping things focused and civil.
I hope posters really take seriously, and appreciate, the advice they're getting here.. We are really fortunate to have it.

confused615 posted 8/10/2014 11:13 AM

Well I think SI is invaluable. I have to say, it does ruffle my feathers a bit when I read a person saying the advice given is "harsh." Usually, actually almost always, that "harsh" advice is the truth. No one wants to be told their spouse is cheating..but if a new member comes and gives their story, and it is obvious they are being cheated on and/or lied to, Im going to be honest. I always try to be kind and compassionate when I deliver my opinion, but Im sure sometimes it is seen as "harsh." I guess I just feel they are being lied to their spouse,,sometimes their spouse and their best friend..and they deserve someone to tell, them the truth. And, while all people are individuals, and all situations are not the same, after awhile here, you start to notice a pattern. It becomes very easy to spot bullshit. I know there have been a few members lately who feel the advice they got was harsh...yet a few weeks later they post they were being lied to, we were right, etc.

But maybe there is a lesson to be learned here? Maybe I could try to be a bit softer with the "harsh" advice. I will work on that..after all..there is always room for improvement.

When I arrived here 3 1/2 years ago, I was so sad, so alone, so scared. At one point I was suicidal. This place, and these members, saved my marriage..and my life. Were some of the comments early on "harsh?" I thought so. But they were also the most honest comments. I am..on my 4 year antiversary of dday..and I am most thankful to those members who told me the truth, no sugarcoating or bullshit.

craig2001 posted 8/10/2014 11:21 AM

Considering how big and how popular this site is...trolls are a minimum for an internet site
I understand trolls, I am a moderator on several websites and an editor and I see it every day.

Some of the comments towards WW on the JFO board are over the top, to the point several BH have said so.

rachelc posted 8/10/2014 11:51 AM

I don't hang out in JFO so can't speak to that. But, this site has been invaluable to me, especially during times of crisis.

What I see here is people working out their own lives, writing it down, having people post back, sitting on things and then revisiting it when they can. Growth and change are sometimes achingly slow. Some people do just vent and when those of us who have been here a while can't seem to move forward, we're called on it. I just accept where I'm at, which is not where I was at a year ago. A potential broken marriage is SO HARD TO FACE that I understand where people get stuck.

I see people struggle and know what I would do but when faced with the children and financial choice, then again I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.

When I posted as a wayward about to confess I received so much support. When I posted about broken NC and being darn near suicidal people I've never heard of came of out of the woodwork here for support.

I do think there are some cliques but not as bad as when I first posted.

I seriously have never seen a troll here. Kudos to the mods for this.

ReconcilingWife posted 8/10/2014 11:51 AM

I'm a newbie of just a few days! I had my DDay in late May. I did find this site and read some of the article and look at some of the forums, but I've only gotten involved in the last few days.

I wonder if people might sometimes leave because the site itself can function as a trigger. In reading threads in the last few days, I have definitely found that my anger (towards WH, not anyone here) has certainly risen. Things are more tense between this, and I know it's because I've been taken back to the early days.

SisterMilkshake posted 8/10/2014 12:08 PM

Some of the comments towards WW on the JFO board are over the top, to the point several BH have said so.
This is something I have noticed, craig, about some BH's. It is something I just recently noticed, too. It seems that a lot more BH's than BW's take it as a personal affront to their WS's when someone is venting about OW's/WW's, or just using a graphic, unpleasant adjective to describe said people.

I understand everyone is different, but, unless the poster is using generalizations, I don't project what the poster is saying on to my FWH.

Especially in JFO, there is going to be great anger and hatred directed towards WW's/OW's/AP's. Seeing that the membership is heavily weighed in on the female persuasion you are going to see a lot more vitriol towards the OW's. Also, understand that not all AP's are remorseful. In fact, many feel they are the wronged party when, in fact, they went into it with their eyes wide open.

However, if you are speaking about responders to a BH about his particular WW, yeah, that really should be tread upon lightly. I usually follow the posters lead. If they are using harsh language towards their WW, then I feel that they would probably be okay if someone posted a graphic word about the WW. If the BH is not using harsh and graphic words about their WW, then I feel they would most likely be offended if someone used those words to him about his WW.

eta: to finish a thought

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:13 PM, August 10th (Sunday)]

Not.the.Big.Easy posted 8/10/2014 12:30 PM

Deeply Scared,

I was on with you, Mangled, CuriousCat, Teach, workingonit, MarieMiller, etc. I do think that the basic nature has changed. Maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy, but the 2x4s sure seemed quite a bit lighter. The main focus was more on accepting and caring for the BS than in slamming and dissecting the WS.

Even with my story back then, people rarely slammed my XGF. They might have commented negatively about something she did or said, but I've seen comments on here about the WS that not only are over the top (as Craig said), but rather border on insulting the intelligence or integrity of the BS. 2x4's are one thing, some people have employed steel I-beams.

I think that when nolight used the quotes around "advice" in the first post, that a good replacement for it would be "There are time though, especially lately; that VENTING is given as gospel...". I've seen reply/advice/vents that don't even seem to match the facts or feelings of the original poster.

So many people here are hurting, but some seem to be hurting so much that they direct their rage at anyone and everything. You can see the sneer on their faces just from what they write. It wasn't like that before. It was a mutual OMG I don't think I could handle it in your position club amongst they BS's. People did use 2x4's but they were always gentle and compassionate to the BS.

So often you, Deeply Scared, were the most gentle of everyone. You were so caring and supportive of the BS's that people would think that you were the BS in your relationship. Everyone looked up to you because you showed that "better than now" was possible for everyone.

I hope that you don't think I'm criticizing you, I'm not. I want people to remember that this is a support website. It's a site were people should read "I'm so sorry you're here. You are hurting badly, but you're not alone." I'm not saying that people don't do that, as Solus wrote, there are long caring responses, BUT there are mindless recitations of dogma.

I'm going to finish up here because I'm pretty much saying the same thing over and over. But I will point out that I have emails and copies of threads saved from the original site. While there was plenty of anger in the BS's it was like a rifle aimed at the WS's. There are too many here that the anger is like a shotgun and it takes the BS in with it.

LostAngry posted 8/10/2014 12:41 PM

No...healing has always been the goal of SI. No one advocates one way or the other, in the 12 years I've been here people speak from their own experience.

I agree with this. I have seen posts made about SI being R focused and posts about it being D focused. It depends on the viewership at the time.

I am biased towards reconciliation with a humble and genuinely REMORSEFUL spouse, even though it did not work out for me. Having said that, it is also painful to watch people make the mistakes I made. Therefore, I try to impart my experience and knowledge to those I see in similar circumstances. Far too many BS allow their WS to continue with hurtful words and actions, or actions that do not back-up their words.

The day I learned that my WS needed to help me heal TODAY, not tomorrow, not next week, not when he felt good and ready, but NOW, was when I took my power and my self worth back. That is where the passion behind my posts comes from.

I also temper myself. I have questions I would like to ask in the general forum, but I refrain because I am not sure they would be well received. I would like to be able to openly discuss the thoughts I have that are intertwined with infidelity, but I am not sure they would be welcome or appreciated, so I fight with them myself.

Well I think SI is invaluable. I have to say, it does ruffle my feathers a bit when I read a person saying the advice given is "harsh." Usually, actually almost always, that "harsh" advice is the truth.

Yes, most times it is not harsh, it is the painful truth and it is not what the poster wants to hear and accept as their truth.

inconnu posted 8/10/2014 12:52 PM

That is not what I said.

But it certainly was perceived that way.

We should all be careful when complaining how other people post, because it sure is a lot like throwing rocks at glass houses.

Lonelygirl10 posted 8/10/2014 13:00 PM

There were definitely some times that the advice I was given was not received well by me. I understood it at the time to be harsh and judgmental, and I thought that the person didn't understand my situation. That somehow my situation was different. But looking back, I had my head stuck in the sand. The advice was spot on, but I just wasn't ready to hear it.

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