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I am approaching my 2 year anniversary of my D. I never found out how many affairs or ONS's...I never got to confront him because 5 days after seeing escort charges on his credit card I headed into the hospital. I only saw evidence of escorts but for 2 years suspected A's with several women. But something that always bothered me & is again & hoping for your thoughts. I had 8 months of in house S & heard my ex on the phone telling a woman how much he loved her during this in house S. I don't believe she was in the picture before D proceedings started but damn...it still felt like a slap in my face! To me it still felt like an A even though we were soon to get divorced. Just wondered others thoughts on this who went through similar where your stbx enters another person into their life before D final. Was I wrong to look at that as another possible affair..or is this okay for him to be saying this to some woman during in house? Just looking for some feedback.

I know what you mean. My STXWW was running up on weekends to her AP when she was still sharing a bed with me. I even asked her not too, but she still did.

Is it a slap in the face? Absolutely. But, he's living in a fantasy world. And TBH, will tell AP anything they want to hear to get sex.

Think of it as absolute proof you're done. We all hang onto some hope, but every dagger he adds should make it easier to disengage.

In-house S sucks, and incidents like this motivate us to go on our separate ways.

My feeling is that if you are legally married, it is an A.

I'm currently S and filed for D last Sept. We're still married, and I'm getting really impatient.

Thanks for the feedback. I thought maybe I was too "old school" because I see so many posts where people start dating before D is final him doing this with a new person during S still felt like an A to me & still hurt even though we were not in R. Guess my D anniversary just bringing up the old hurts.

Was I wrong to look at that as another possible affair..or is this okay for him to be saying this to some woman during in house?

No, you're not wrong at all. It wasn't a "possible" affair. It was an affair. You were still married. Seriously, he couldn't wait for D to be final? No, because he disregarded the vows to begin with.

My opinion of this has changed over time, primarily because I've been separated for over 3 years with divorce not even visible on the horizon.

I think it's horrendously insensitive and douchey--and yes, adultery--if one is unfaithful during in-house separation. It's like all of the infidelity that preceded the "separation" (and in-house is a limbo that really is NOT a separation, IMO), wrapped in blatant disrespect and disregard. I think it's an especially cruel act--and it's one of the reasons I think in-house separation is a very bad idea. (And yes--I had a long one.) In your situation yes, absolutely, it's an affair.

OTOH, once physical separation is established --with the intent that it will be permanent--I don't automatically consider new relationships to be affairs. Some couples permanently separate without divorce for legitimate reasons (insurance being one that leaps to mind). Others may have a protracted legal trajectory.

I can think of a million reasons not to start relationships when separated.

To me, the most important reason is that it takes time to heal, and there's little chance of having a successful relationship (that does not harm self or others) if you have not taken the time to do so.

But at 3+ years out, infidelity is not one of MY reasons not to have another relationship. Trac-Fone is living with another woman--and I don't consider it cheating--not even a little. (Stupid? Yes. Exploitative? Yes. Doomed? Yes. But not cheating.)

My kids are bothered by the relationship, but not because of marital status. Their angst is (very justifiably) abandonment-related.

I'm not in a relationship or looking for one. I certainly would understand if anyone ruled me out as a potential partner for moral reasons. I would respect that.

However, I would not--even for a moment--hesitate to date based on my marital status, if the right guy came along at this point. I've worked hard to heal. I am a safe partner. My marriage is just a piece of the past that remains, for very complicated reasons, in limbo.

I took my vows very, very seriously. Very. But entering a relationship would not be cheating---though I respect the viewpoint of those who feel differently. This may be because my marriage was, at its core--and from the outset--fraudulent. Or it may just be that it means nothing now. But it's not because I'm immoral or have porous boundaries. My boundaries are steel-clad; they have never posed a threat to any of my relationships.

This was once a very black and white issue for me. It no longer is.

[This message edited by solus sto at 11:01 AM, August 12th (Tuesday)]

Actually, my X and I both started dating before the D was final so I guess if that were the only question, my personal answer is that I don't look at it as an A if you are on your way to D. We were openly behaving as single or already-divorced people.

But even so I can relate to part of the "slap in the face" of having him living in your home, talking to another woman that way in YOUR home.

I filed for a D two days after the final D-day in my first M. So yes, he was already involved with her and she was the reason we split. But I told him that he could stay in the house until he found somewhere else to stay...I guess sort of like your in-house separation idea. I think it lasted about two weeks with him sleeping on the couch. One night I heard him talking on the phone to OW around 1:00 AM. This was on the landline as it was in 1992, before the days of cell phones. I looked at it as MY HOUSE and I kind of lost it that night and told him he needed to find a different place to live. And he did. He moved in her trailer with her, of course. One of my ways of coping was to start dating right away and quite frankly I don't regret it, nor do I consider it to be having an A.

I agree with solus sto.

It's a grey area that has nuances depending on your own personal belief system.

In my situation, we were not legally married so knowing that, I guess he never had an affair or cheated on me in the first place.

Does the piece of paper mean anything in that reagard when the very basis of the agreement has been breeched?

I'm not so sure anymore.

My two cents...

I don't see it as an affair, but it is definitely a gray area. Especially in your situation where it was happening during in-house separation.

I'm not very religious, so my marriage was merely a piece of paper that was destroyed when vows were broken by my STBX. The second that we decided to S, we were no longer married in my eyes. To me being married means that you are supporting one another, loving one another, relying on one another, committed to one another and spending time with one another. If you are separated and have made the decision to move forward with D, then I feel you are single.

However, I might be somewhat biased because I am still legally married, but I have had a couple relationships since my separation.

In my current situation my stbx initiated her current A while we were in house S. No paperwork filed yet just drawn up with a verbal "I want a divorce". Then hopped back into bed with me in the meantime (please no more commentary I was an idiot). Then went back out with OM. Then back in my bed (no more, I'm done with this shit).

In THIS kind of case, yes it is an A.

If we were in house S and paperwork were filed AND we were NC (other than parenting), then it would be a gray area where I may view it differently.

It's a grey area that has nuances depending on your own personal belief system.

^^^ This

Specifically, I'd say you need to apply mature judgment.

From a BS perspective, for BS's:

In my case, I'd say there were milestones.

The marriage contract ended d-day minus 2 years, when XWW started her first A. She negated her marriage vows to me. I just didn't know yet.

I found out about it on D-day, 2 years after, but was willing to beg for R.

Three months later, another affair, second D-day, I realized the marriage was over.

2 weeks after that, I filed for divorce.

At this point, it became a case of my healing, and waiting for the paperwork (the divorce) to catch up to the reality.

In my case, the legal dissolution took 4 years.

If your belief system says your vows are forever, regardless what your X did, then you're really up a creek. You can never be released from those vows.

If your belief system says you need to wait for the court to "bless" your dissolution, then so be it. Just be aware that could be a lot longer than you think at first.

My belief system said I was obligated right up until I decided once and for all that I was done and had initiated all the legal steps. And no longer.

From a BS perspective, looking at WS's:

They lied to you and ignored their vows before you filed for divorce. What difference does it make once you've filed? How could you expect better behavior from them now than you could expect then?

I don't consider it cheating at all. Cheating is lying and sneaking around.

My stbx cheated when he had a secret phone and secret online accounts When he kissed me and told me he couldn't live without me then went out for a quick bj in the grocery parking lot

After the third d-day and while he was still enamoured with flavor of the month, he moved out. I considered my marriage over. Vows broken by him. My divorce is just paper work.

I am thrilled to be in a loving relationship with an awesome man. My friends and family are thrilled for me. Heck, even my stbx's family is happy for me

I do not consider mysel adulterous at all

Yes until you are legally separated or divorced, it is adultery in most states.

Still married = affair.

My take, despite my STBXWW's claim that my thinking is too black and white, is that this is gray. The main thing to me that marks an affair is an emotional or sexual relationship while you are in a committed relationship with someone else, and there is not agreement between the partners that this is OK. Usually these are covert but not always.

So, if you are headed to D, then there's not committed relationship, and so if you're dating (or having sex with) someone else then that's not an affair.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea though. Shortly on the heels of deciding to D you probably aren't in a good mental state to have a relationship, and in my case, I'm not ready. If my STBW jumped into another relationship so soon after we tried and failed to R, I'd look at it as a deliberate provocation. But not an affair.

And of course if R were still a possibility then this would kill the last chance IMO.

As to the legal side, AFAIK, sex while still married to someone else is adultery, but in this case adultery isn't the same as infidelity.

My X took up with someone who wasn't the AP in October. I had filed in July and we did in house separation until I moved out in November.

I assume he was seeing both her and the AP at the same time.

He's still with the new girlfriend.

I remember at the time feeling pissed off, because we were still sharing a checking account and I could see the debits for the nice dinners out.

But it did not surprise me one bit.

But I do feel it's cheating.

Good question. i also used to think really black and white. so long as you're legally married, it is an affiar. But with my situation going on 2 years trying to become divorced...i'm moving toward it being sort of grey. my 2 cents:

9/16/12 Dday #1 I discover wife's affair. When she tells AP i found out, he promptly dumps her to save his family. Later in the week she says she wants to divorce. we agree to in-house separation.

12/1/12 Dday #2. During in-house separation, i learn she's having a long distance relationship with a different OM.

Felt like another A, honestly. We both had agreed not to date during in-house separation. Even though we had both retained counsel, neither of us had filed.

She moved out 1/12/13. I finally filed 3 months later, on 4/3/2013, and we got a temporary order in place on 4/22/2013. The court recognizes 4/22/13 as the date of our separation, but i pretty much figure anybody she had a relationship with after she physically moved out no longer counts as a new affair partner.

Unlike a lightbulb, you really can't unscrew another person, so why split hairs?

For the record, my judgment may be affected by my getting involved with a single woman 6 months after STBXWW moved out. i didn't really consider mine an affair, since i had filed and STBXWW was long gone. But i guess, technially it is.

Interestingly enough, STBXWW also considered my relationship with this woman an affair. Even though she had multiple EA's and PA's during the marriage, and she also had started taking birth control after she moved out, i cheated on her. go figure.

Was told by my attorney that I was not to date during S as I was legally married and it could be used in court. Not that I felt like dating after the trauma of his cheating and lies.

My faith tells me that married is married. Until we were divorced, I could not date or I would be cheating.

My attorney also told me not to start seeing anyone. Even though I live in a no fault state, my attorney used the cheating to get me a better settlement.

Affairs and adultery are not the same thing. Adultery may be defined in some states and by some people as having sex with someone other than your spouse (or something like that). I think this could have a negative impact for some people's divorces which might be a good reason for some to hold off on new relationships until the D is final.

But an A or "cheating" is not a legal definition. I share SweetAngelBroken's view:

Cheating is lying and sneaking around.

If dating/moving on is done without secrecy or hiding, before the legal work is finalized, I just don't see that as cheating.