Since I found that she had actual sex with 2 men through her email, she has been consistent on that number. But its hard to believe. She did warn me against reading the texts. She said that they would sound bad and sound like things happened that didnt. Well I found out what she was talking about. Its basically black and white that she had sex with several of these men. But when I ask her about specific men she still denies it. She says that "sex" doesnt always mean intercourse in her texts and emails. That they mean oral sex. Which makes sense until you actually read an email that says "the sex was hot yesterday" or "your pussy made my dick sore" or " I love the way you feel inside me" or Ive never had sex for that long" or " I fucked your on your bed". Then its HARD to believe that intercourse didn't happen. She tells me that there has to be a point where I have to believe what she's telling me.
She also is getting resentful that I am checking her email constantly. She says she is tired of having no privacy. I keep telling her that I am trying to get over things the best way that I can. And she doesnt like me asking her the same questions about the affair.
Its just hard to get over. I can tell a 100% change in the way she acts and wants to be with me all the time and she treats me good now. But its hard for me to get over the affair.
Sometimes when Im with her I think I should just delete it all and try to block it out of my mind and get over it. Then other times I feel like im lost and don't know what to do and I feel like I cant just get over it right now.
We've been going to a Christian counselor and he says that I have to forgive these other men. I dont think they need or deserve my forgiveness. Yes I can and will have to forgive my wife, but not these other men. Counselor says that I am only hurting myself by letting them in.
It sucks that I am the one having to forgive and get over it all when im the one that was wronged. She told me last night that she thought we were normal now but she sees now that we're not.
When we get into an argument now about truth and openness she tells me that I havent been totally open with her either. She told me not to read texts between her and her best friend. Which I tried not to, but when I did a search for one of the men's names I saw it come up in their conversation. Of course I started looking then, but only things that pertained to the affairs or me. then after talking with her friend and her acting like she didnt know anything about the affairs it came all over me and I felt like I had to get it out and let her know that I know the truth and that she can drop the act. And she is mad that I told me boss about the affairs. I agreed that this was a mistake, but I felt I had to tell my boss the reason why I lost 30 lbs and started chain smoking. It was a dumb thing to do, I admit. But I dont feel like ive not been honest.
[This message edited by Thumper1 at 10:04 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]
If the email is indicating that she had sex with these people, and she is saying otherwise, she is lying to you.
There is NO reason why she would say any of those things if sex didn't occur.
She seems to be lying and manipulating you by saying "don't read the texts because it will sound like things happened that didn't"
Sorry, this was hard for me too. She has most definitely had sex with these people if there is an email that says "sex was hot yesterday" or "your pussy made my dick sore"
She's lying. If she's resentful of you constantly checking her email, she's not remorseful. In all honesty, it doesn't seem like she's treating you well, it seems like she's trying to rug sweep and get over the whole thing in the quickest, most painless way to her, not to you.
Hugs to you
Ive told her that it doenst matter whether she had intercourse with them or not at this point. I know she did with 2 men. And she had oral with several. what difference does it make to add a few more to her intercourse total. It just bothers me that she wont confess, if there truly is anything to confess.
I want us to be open and honest with each other and thats what im trying to be.
She says it hurts her to relive the affair. But I told her its not like I love talking or thinking about it either. She acts like I enjoy making myself miserable by reading this stuff.
Hindsight being what it is, I should have had him log in to change the password and handed over ownership of the account to me.
You don't need to read all of it. But if you feel that you need to, that's what you should do. Personally, I read enough to figure out what was going on, collect a few details, and then I confronted him. I wish I could use a search function on it to determine dates, look at outgoing messages for attachments, and search some important words (the name of towns we've lived in, my name, our kids names, love, meet, see, our phone numbers, wife, etc).
IMO, reading enough to see the gist of it is enough. Reading all of it just sets you up for triggers should you chose R.
Your counselor telling you to forgive the OM is a little over the top so early in the process. If anything, you should disregard them, because they aren't your problem- your WW is. That takes time though. Lots of it for most of us.
Some would even argue that you can R without forgiveness. Seeking counsel from a religious leader will generally encourage you to forgive and stay together because those are their core beliefs. If you want more neutral counseling, you may want to go with a secular counselor.
Im happy when im with her. But its like she expects me to give her back her privacy and trust her.
she says we're paying this counselor money and if I dont do what he says then we're wasting money.
I am sorry to tell you this but you are not out of the woods.
She is still lying to you. And by the way this girlfriend she is been telling about the other men is NOT a friend of your marriage, and may have been encouraging her.
So lets look at this. She goes online (Ashley Madison I presume), and fucks multiple men, and she wants privacy. She wants privacy to be able to do it again if she wants to because she saw how easy it was. Well, guess what, when you register on sites to meet and have sex with other men, you lose your right to privacy.
What she is doing is straight out of the cheaters handbook. Blame you to make you feel guilty for not "trusting" her, and intimidate you so that you think the only way you can save your marriage is to fold your tent and not bother her.
Find the profile and posts by MCHA and you will see what could be in store for you. After getting caught, went right back a short time later with a new Ashley madison profile.
Total tramsparency should be one of your DEMANDS ,not requests, to stay with this woman.
You are still in an open marriage without that and she will do it again the next time you encounter difficulties or piss her off. You can count on it.
"your pussy made my dick sore" or " I love the way you feel inside me" or " I fucked your on your bed".
I don't believe her at all. You don't say these things for a bj.
You do know what to believe hun. You are just choosing not to at this point.
When should I let it all go and put it in the past?
That's the rub. As long as she's still lying to you, this isn't in the past and you will not be able to let it go.
[This message edited by lieshurt at 10:21 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]
Have you read anything in the Healing Library? You will find the Healing Library in the upper left hand corner in the yellow box. In the Healing Library you will find a wealth of very good information. I would urge you to read, at the very least and especially, the BS FAQ's. It will answer a lot of what you are wondering about in your post.
I suggest you find another marriage counselor. I am quite offended that he/she is insisting on any kind of forgiveness for anyone at this point. It is way, way too early for you to consider any kind of forgiveness for anyone. Personally, I don't feel you need to forgive the OM, but that isn't an issue you should be dealing with right now. It is even too early to forgive your WW.
Your WW (wayward wife) doesn't seem to be particularly remorseful, honestly. She needs to be completely transparent. That means you have access to everything. She should be happy you are even giving her a chance and willing to do whatever it takes for you to feel safe with her. Not defensive, angry and resentful. Really? She fucks you over and is angry that you don't trust her?
You have every right to tell whomever you want/need to tell. Take out a fucking billboard if that will help you. (Please, cut down on your smoking and take care of yourself, though!)
Please go to the Wayward forum. There is a thread called "Things every WS needs to know" by HUFI-PUFI. Please print it out (you don't need all the comments, just the original post) and have your WW read it. These are the things she needs to be doing for you.
BTW, if your WW's best friend knew and helped your WW have the affair(s) she is no friend of the marriage and she needs to say "Buh Bye" to this "friend".
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:29 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak." ~ Homer Simpson
You don't feel like you have the truth, and it seems likely that she is still holding back. Unless and until she is completely honest with you, filled with remorse, and working to fix her shit, she cannot be a reliable coach or partner for your healing.
When should I let it all go and put it in the past?
"The dark does not destroy the light; it defines it." - Brene Brown
The whole affair thing really went into overdrive when she started taking graduate classes and had alot of classes 70 miles away on Saturdays. She and her friend rode together and had the same classes.
She thought she was being slick and covering her tracks in her emails, but she didnt realize that there is a sent folder. That is where I found all of my information.
I do feel like I can trust her more now that I could before. I check her email and I dont see any conversations with other men. And I read her texts and dont see anything there. She did have one text from one of the men and she immediately showed it to me. I told him off. And then there were emails from men and I told them off too. But in the last 2 months there hasnt been any communication come from anyone except the above mentioned text.
And I changed her apple ID password and I check it every now and then to track where her phone is. And she has been where she says she is.
[This message edited by Thumper1 at 10:40 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]
Three months out from D-day (the day we BS's, betrayed spouses find out about the affair(s) ) there is no way you are ready to put it in the past. You haven't even gone through all the grief cycles I would imagine. I was in shock and denial for a solid 5-6 months and then the anger stage (uummmm, maybe "rage" would be a better word) set in.
Don't let anyone try to push you through this and stuff your feelings. You need a long, long time to process this shit and to heal. They say it takes 2-5 years to heal from our spouses betrayal (if they are remorseful) and I am here to say that is the truth.
here's another mistake. This girlfriend is probably still in her affair, and will be reminding your wife how GREAT it is daily or whenever they are together. She is NOT a friend of your marriage and if I were you I would contact her husband and tell him. You are wrong if you think it does not affect you because she is staying right back in the same social setting. And of course, i am sure she will want to go out to girls night with this person.
Read my profile. The ENTIRE last major episode that resulted in D quickly was the influence the peer group had. That does not mean it was not her decision, but she got nothing but encouragement. What you have here is two cheaters bonding to support each other.
Sister Milwaukee said it right, but again
TOTAL TRANSPARENCY THAT MEANS ALL
COMMITMENT TO YOU AND THE MARRIAGE
Those should be demands, not requests, and resistance to these are indications your are being deceived again.
being inseparable with her friend who is still fucking another man, maybe from the same web site, is something that may come back to haunt you.
id suggest not having the attitude that what she does does not matter. If you tell the girlfriends husband, you"lll solve a big problem.
Your wife is LYING to you. How do you believe anything she says right now. ??? If that girlfriend did not exist her attitude will be the same. She knows she can find men with just a few clicks and wants to protect her ability to go there if she wants to.
She says she is trying to be a better wife and mom and person in general. And like I said earlier, I can see that. Yes it sounds like lies, but she says its the truth. So thats why I say I dont know what to believe. I mean should I contact this guy and ask him directly if they had intercourse? I dont want to have anything to do with the bastard.
I just wish none of this had happened and she says the same thing. But it did happen and we have to live with it.
I guess I should back up and tell the rest of the story. My wife was in a very serious car wreck. While in ICU she told me that she didnt deserve me. Which I thought was odd, but thought it was because she loves me and is happy that im there for her during this time. Well, the reason I decided to check her email in the first place was to see if any relatives or friends had tried to contact her about the accident. My plan was to tell her and then let her tell me what to say to them. Thats when I found her sent folder. And I confronted her. She initially said that she had met a few men and kissed them. I was devastated from that. Then she said she had oral sex with a few of them. I immediately started looking through all of her emails and trying to find out about these men and what happened. Then I found an email she sent to a man that she having sex with him was a mistake because he started ignoring her after it. So I confronted her again. She then admitted to having sex with him and one more man she had a year long relationship with. She had contemplated divorcing me to be with him but she just couldnt do it.
A few days/weeks later im still looking at this and I find an email address and ask her about it. It turns out this was a man she had been talking to every day. I knew she talked to some man "she graduated from college with" and I didnt like it. But for some reason I sucked it up. She talked about him and his wife and their twins. I even told her she could still talk to him after I found out about the affairs because he was her "best friend". Of course I asked if he was one of these men, which she denied. After I found out the truth about this guy I told her No More Fucking Lies. And I gave her the opportunity to come clean about anything and everything. She said they had oral sex and talked dirty alot. Of course I told her this guy was finished for sure. I hate him more than the rest by the way. I found tons of emails and texts between them and most of them were graphic. Even pictures of her using a butt plug, which I didnt know she even had. I told her he was not her friend and never was. Friends dont talk like that to each other.
She said the reason she didnt tell me the truth at the very beginning is because she couldnt move and was scared I would leave her. She said she couldnt come after me at that point even if she tried. Which is true, but still I wanted the truth.
I know I'm the type that transfers the hatred I should have for my wife to these other men. But I can't hate my wife and love her at the same time.
[This message edited by Thumper1 at 11:08 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]
But how do I prove it.
You do not have to. You know what she did and what happened; she knows what she did and what happened. What more is needed? Sure, you may have missed an OM here or there, have the number of couplings not quite right, but as you said; once you know the basics, how much difference do the details make?
You will not, at least while she is in denial and covering her tracks, find the answers you need in your WW. In addition to the healing Library, and SI in general, I recommend the books Not Just Friends by Glass, and Sexual Detours by Hines. Both of these books will help to explain the reasons and dynamics behind affairs.
I did not see it in the other posts, so let me be the first to tell you that her affairs are not your fault. Her As are her issue, her acting out to try and address some internal failing.
You do not need to forgive anyone you do not want to, especially so early on in the process. For now, you do not even know for sure what it is that you would be forgiving, and who all to include. Eventually, you will work your way to acceptance, and maybe or maybe not forgiveness. The OM are not really so important. As I said above, the As are your WW’s issue. The OM were simply available and willing, nothing more or less.
I suggest that you take the focus off of your WW and the M for now, and focus on you and your needs. Many of us find some exercise is a way to fight off depression and work out anger (rage) and resentment. Work on your finances so that money does not become the sole reason you feel you need to stay with your WW if she continues to not get it. Try to save more, spend less, earn more, and set some money aside where only you can get to it. A little bit each month over the next couple of years will build a nice emergency fund.
I also suggest no more MC or joint counseling until your WW stops with the denials and cover-ups, and owns what she has done.
Think about what you want to stay in the M for now while you see if your WW can fix her issues. You probably want no more contact with any of the actual or potential other men (OM). You probably want access to all of her means of communication (cellphone, computers) to verify NC. You want her to not delete any texts or emails until you have seen them. You may want a timeline with who, what, where, and when. You may want the names of all the OM so that you can contact their betrayed wives if married. You may want accountability of where your WW is and proof like a receipt from a store after a long shopping trip. You may want your WW to attend individual counseling, and be able to explain to you why she had her affairs, what she wanted to accomplish, and how she is going to change so it is much less likely that she will have an A again. You may want her to also read Not Just Friends and or Sexual Detours and talk with you about how what these books say applies to her affairs and your M.
If she is unwilling to do the things you ask of her, then you need to think about if you want to remain married to a person who would betray your M, her vows, and then not be willing to move Heaven and Earth to try and repair the damage.
Best wishes and keep posting and reading. It can get slow here on weekends, but you really have found a tremendous resource.
But she says she feels trapped when I read her emails before she can even see them. She says she has nothing of her own now. And she says shes afraid it'll turn into resentment if it keeps going on. But I tell her to read ANY article about healing after an affair and it says exactly what im doing and what im going through.
She says she can answer as many questions as I have, but its up to me to believe her and to let it go. So we can move on together in our marriage. I tell her its going to take time.
The reason she started cheating is because she felt like I didnt want her sexually. Because I was always tired from work or had a stomachache. She said she stumbled upon an article in a magazine about how trashy ashley madison is and she took a look and was disgusted by what she saw. Then for some reason a few weeks later she created a profile and started having an emotional affair with a man. When we would try to have sex alot of times my head wasnt in it. I would have something else on my mind or I would be afraid that she didnt like what I was doing. She always initiated because I didnt want to bother her. I know it sounds stupid but thats the truth. I wanted to please her fully everytime. Then we started arguing about sex and I would get upset and wonder what was wrong with me. She told me I would have to fix it myself, she wasnt my mother and couldnt do it for me. Looking back now, its no wonder I couldnt have sex wit her regularly. she didnt want me breathing on her or touching her face. Plus she was having affairs and wasnt all there for me.
You can't nice your WW into having boundaries and getting her shit together.
You didn't make her do this. This has nothing to do with you. Your WW is broken. She needs to fix her shit and it doesn't get fixed by giving a diamond necklace.
I wish you peace
"Nothing can come between God and the soul." --Julian of Norwich