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So....we had been spending a lot of time together last few weeks, and this week he needed some time alone. I understand that. Things are getting fairly serious (it has been 5 months) and it is healthy to re-evaluate from time to time ...I gave him his space and he came back and said he was sure we were headed in the right direction and he is sure of this. So, all good, except....

His buddy has been out of town for a few days (he lives with his buddy). He is going over there this afternoon to see him and hang a bit, no problems there.

I asked him if he wanted to come for supper tonight. He said he wanted to see what his buddy was doing first, what he was having for supper and if his buddy was going to see his gf first. I took that bad. It makes me feel like his buddy is his priority and he is only coming to supper here if he doesn't like what his buddy is making for supper or his buddy is going to spend the time with his gf instead. I don't want to be his back up ....not even for meals. To me, that was a yes or no question as in....Yes, I want to spend the evening with you for supper because we haven't been together much this week or no, I have other things to do and I will be over later in the evening. That would be an okay answer, not....let me see if my buddy is available if not, I'll be over.

I told him never mind, don't bother coming for supper....I am not going to be 2nd choice, plus, I can't plan a meal if I don't know if he will be here or not because he has to check with his buddy first...so I told him he can come over later after supper and we will talk.

He feels like I am making his decisions for him. I feel he is making me his back-up plan. We are at an impasse here....both of us have decided we don't want to fight about it and we do love each other, but I am still kind of hurt and pissed off and he was mad also. I don't want to feel like anyone's second choice, not for anything..... and what makes it worse is I feel we have lost our connection because of his time alone this week. I am scared we can't get back that closeness we had before...and of course his friends are siding with him and mine IRL are with me, so I need some neutral opinions on this....

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 3:17 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]

He feels like I am making his decisions for him. I feel he is making me his back-up plan.

IMO, you are making your decision, based on the uncertainty of the situation and your preference to plan, you have rescinded the dinner invitation. That's your decision. What he does for dinner is still his own decision, you've just removed one (of infinite) options.

Is this one example of a series of incidents that roll up into one "issue" (or fight), or the sole incident? I only ask because you said he feels you are making his "decisions" (plural), which makes me wonder if it's part of a pattern?

IMO, you are making your decision,

That is what I told him. I told him he can make his own decisions, but I have made my decision that I don't want to bother with supper tonight.

Is this one example of a series of incidents that roll up into one "issue" (or fight), or the sole incident?

This is our first real argument where we can't seem to agree. I know I have put some boundaries in place, such as....you play KISA to other women and I am gone, or you get too flirty or emotionally involved with other women and I am gone. Those are my boundaries and I put those in place immediately. Again, those are my decisions of what I am comfortable with in a relationship and what I need in order to feel safe. He has the choice to decide he wants a relationship with a woman who won't deal with that stuff or not.

Maybe that is what he is meaning, I don't know. He did not have a problem with those boundaries, we talked them through.

I don't see a problem here. You asked him a yes or no question. His non-answer was a no.

You aren't making his decisions for him. You are simply saying that you want to be treated with respect. Either he wanted to come for supper or not.

If he was missing his buddy and wanting to catch up - that is fine, but he can't leave you hanging while he decides. Seems pretty simple to me.

NL

Is this one example of a series of incidents that roll up into one "issue" (or fight), or the sole incident?

This is our first real argument where we can't seem to agree.

Sorry, I was not clear. Have you had run-ins in the past over you making his decisions/him making you a back-up?

I think you could have handled it better. When he said he wanted to see what the friend was doing (because he was already spending the day with the friend) instead of getting pissed, you could have just said, "OK; I won't cook. If I don't hear from you by XXX, I'll make other plans. Have fun. Can we make concrete plans for (Friday/the weekend/ whatever)?" Now, if he blew you off again, I would see it as a problem...

Ditto Sad in Az.

Trifecta here with Sad and lies.

He told you what he was doing and you chopped him up for it.

AJ's MOM

I'm sorry, but I think I know what Sad means. I also think "New Guy" maybe is just in a little bit different place than you? Maybe he wants to come and go and have you there when he is free...yes, I suppose that is "back up".

Maybe if this kind of disagreement happens again, you'll know more? He sounds like he is one who is refusing to have any sort of pressure put on him and I also mean nice pressure, like an invitation.

I know with Perv, if he is asked for something like that in advance would have said no last year, so I learned to kind of pretend I hadn't thought of it earlier. This was ages ago, before I knew of OW but when he was gone.

And I understand your wishes for boundaries and that you've talked about them with him, but has he talked about it too, about being "exclusive" or whatever it's called now?

I just hope you are both in the right place, but am long-winded in saying it!

I wish you luck and can also relate to your ideals.

Ugh. Yep, you sound just like me as usual, soul sister!

I told him never mind, don't bother coming for supper....I am not going to be 2nd choice, plus, I can't plan a meal if I don't know if he will be here or not because he has to check with his buddy first...so I told him he can come over later after supper and we will talk.

That sort of knee jerk reaction is just what I would have said... I don't hold back. I actually think this isn't all bad. If you let this stuff go on and on and don't call him out, it will build up to resentment level and ... not good.

I had a very similar incident with my SO. He would have tentative plans with me based on what his son, friends, etc... were doing. I would wait up for him for dinner only to find out he already ate with his friends. It pissed me off and I lashed out. I felt like a back-up plan too.

We worked it out. Simple, logical conversations (my SO is super logical, which I LOVE). He told me that he is not used to "answering" to anyone but himself, so his automatic reaction is "stop controlling me". But he got my point too. And we worked on a plan to handle. So now we talk ahead of time and commit to our days together, and our days apart. I make plans with my girlfriends on the days apart; he spend it with his buddies. And once we agree, then we only change it if we both agree to the change.

It's working perfectly for us! He is now aware that when we make plans together I see that as a binding contract between us. And when he makes plans with friends, there is no commitment to see me at all... but if his plans fall through and I "happen" to be free, we get together (which happens a lot).

Good luck!

Have you had run-ins in the past over you making his decisions/him making you a back-up?

Not really, but I have told him that I need to feel I am a priority in my guy's life if we are interested in some type of a future. He said he is fine with that and wants to make me his priority.

You aren't making his decisions for him. You are simply saying that you want to be treated with respect. Either he wanted to come for supper or not.

Yes. I just wanted to know so I am not left hanging on the whims of what his buddy was making for supper and if new guy wanted that or would prefer me cooking for him. It really truly was a pretty simple yes or no question, not a "maybe, depends on if something better comes up" type thing.

If he was missing his buddy and wanting to catch up - that is fine, but he can't leave you hanging while he decides. Seems pretty simple to me.

Yup. So I solved the issue with telling him that he isn't coming for supper. He can come over later.

I think you could have handled it better. When he said he wanted to see what the friend was doing (because he was already spending the day with the friend) instead of getting pissed, you could have just said, "OK; I won't cook. If I don't hear from you by XXX, I'll make other plans

You are probably right. I could have been more compromising or something. My feelings were hurt and I felt he was using me as a back-up. Just like he spent 3 nights at his place while his buddy was gone so he had time alone, but today his buddy is back and he is going to entertain his gf and so new guy wants to come over here tonight to give them some time alone. How nice for him to be so considerate of his buddy and his girl. I love it that he doesn't come back here until he wants to help his buddy out. Gggrrrrrrr......

He told you what he was doing and you chopped him up for it.

I really do appreciate the other side of this, and it makes me feel like he isn't such a jerk for doing this. However, I still think it is rude to basically say "I'll come over if I don't like what my friend is making for supper." That is like being invited somewhere, and telling that person, "well....let me see if anything better is going on. If I'm bored and nothing sounds better, I'll come hang out with you."

Maybe I'm being too sensitive about this (probably) but screw it. I don't like feeling 2nd choice.

Maybe he wants to come and go and have you there when he is free...yes, I suppose that is "back up".

Yeah, well, no thank you. I'm not his "back up".

but has he talked about it too, about being "exclusive" or whatever it's called now?

Yes, we are exclusive, we are going for the long term here, he has already talked about lifetime commitment at this point. 5 months and this is our first argument, which most couples that we've talked to seem to think is pretty amazing. We usually get along real well.

Yep, you sound just like me as usual, soul sister!

That sort of knee jerk reaction is just what I would have said... I don't hold back. I actually think this isn't all bad. If you let this stuff go on and on and don't call him out, it will build up to resentment level and ... not good.

Yeah, I used to do the "holding in the resentment" crap. Basically what that does is kill any feelings I have for the guy in time....so now I just speak my mind and deal with the fall out. Seems to work better because we do have some very deep talks which he says is why he is in love with me and what he finds special about me....and he always knows where he stands. He knows when I'm happy, he knows when I'm pissed. No secrets there....

He told me that he is not used to "answering" to anyone but himself, so his automatic reaction is "stop controlling me"

Yeah, this one too. 29 year old bachelor. He has told me that he wants this and values highly our relationship, but I need to understand he is making adjustments from eternal bachelorhood to being part of a serious couple. I am working on it and so is he... and he has a habit of changing his mind a lot....drives me crazy, and so a plan like you have where he makes the total commitment one way or another so I know what to expect would be great for me but it is hard for him to do....but again, he is working on this and has made some progress.....

I think you're misinterpreting 'guy thoughts' (although not always guys; I think this way too.) His saying that he would come see you if his friend was busy was his way of being nice. He could have said, "No thanks, not tonight" knowing that he wanted to continue to visit with his friend if he could, but since he thought the friend might not be available, he was potentially making himself available to you.

Since this is unacceptable to you, you can disabuse him of this in the future, but by getting pissed off, you basically stole his chance to possibly make you happy (in his mind.)

Thanks Sad, let me think on what you are saying there.....he is actually on his way over and I am sure we will talk.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:20 PM, June 12th (Wednesday)]

Ok. He is struggling with how to keep his independence while being part of a close relationship. He said he didn't know at first why he needed a little time apart, but then it came to him and he is trying to find the balance here. That is always an issue in a close, loving relationship so I understand it, and this is his first real serious one. I was with my 1st H for 17 years so it isn't as scary an issue for me, although I don't want to completely give up who I am either, but I've learned how to still be me in pretty much any situation.

So here is my problem that I need help with. HOw do I deal with this as he gets close, promises to always be here for me, has me totally opening up and emotionally vulnerable to him, then he feels the need to pull away for a day or two? I end up feeling abandoned and lost. And then when he does come back, I don't trust him to still be here for me because I don't know when he is going to feel the need to pull away again.

This type of yo-yo thing happened with my XSO to the point of where one time when he pulled away, I never let him come back. Although the difference there is he was never planning on leaving his mom, this one wants to get married at some point. So how do I keep my heart open to him without feeling so wounded and vulnerable all the time?

I think you really need to be careful about watching whether his actions match his words. He's certainly really great about saying all the right things and getting you to dismiss the yellow flags you see.

He may say he wants to get married someday, but his actions (this incident, plus a few others you've mentioned in the past) indicate that he might not really be there.

I think you listen to your gut. If you really do feel "wounded and vulnerable all the time" maybe he's not the right guy for you.

(((NaiveAgain))) You'll figure this out. You are one smart lady. Just make sure you listen to your gut and don't be too quick to explain away or dismiss what your gut is telling you!

Thanks phmh

He's certainly really great about saying all the right things and getting you to dismiss the yellow flags you see.

That is what my IRL gf said also.

I am trying to remember the other yellow flags but they aren't coming to me right now....

As far as actions, Monday morning when he was gone, I had a bad stomach ache (I think I have an ulcer) and I called him, and he did come over and drive me around where I needed to go before going back home. But although he was here physically, he didn't seem to be mentally/emotionally, and he did leave as soon as we got back home.

OTOH, he has taken me home to his whole family and I have met them all, he has met mine, and he has moved some of his things in here and has told me this is his real home.

Honestly, I am so confused. I feel I am getting mixed signals here.

I am trying to remember the other yellow flags but they aren't coming to me right now....

You posted something maybe a month or two ago. I think that the basic problem was the same -- putting his roommate in front of you. You then posted that you guys had talked it out and that things were fine.

It stuck out in my mind because it almost seemed like you had to have a discussion teaching him how to be a decent boyfriend/human being (I don't remember details, but I remember that's how I felt at the time.)

I didn't post at the time because I felt like a wet blanket when everyone was congratulating you for having such an open, communicative relationship. And I don't discount that at all, but it seems to me that you shouldn't have to communicate certain things to an adult, and if you do, it's someone who doesn't possess the qualities I'm looking for in a SO.

It just reminds me so much of my past with XWH. I'm getting ready for a move and doing an even deeper purge than I did when I moved into my apartment last year. I've found a ton of cards and letters from him, as well as e-mails I printed out in 1998/1999 when we first got together. All promising to behave differently w/r/t his family and how they treated me. As it turns out, it was all talk, no action, and ultimately led to the demise of our marriage. He got me to ignore so many yellow and red flags by saying the right things. And then didn't back any of it up with action.

Please know that my comments come from a place of care and concern. Also, it's very possible that I'm way too unrealistic in what I expect from a boyfriend. My brief foray into dating ended when the guys were too ridiculous so I could be way off base. It does concern me that your IRL friends feel the same way, though.

As I said before, you are smart and will figure this out. More hugs! (((NaiveAgain)))

Google the "Rubber-band theory" about men (some women). This sounds a lot like it. Basically, they pull away, then, when "straight" in their head, they come back...sometimes stronger. It is a cycle, and the cycles become less intense and spaced further apart until they are comfortable and stop.

Probably worth a look-see. It is just a theory, but sounds like what you are describing.

phmh, your comments are very helpful. While he is very mature in some ways and it is him that actually opens up our discussions many times, and he is also very good at the introspection and figuring out why he behaves as he does.....he does have some things to learn as far as being part of a couple. He has never been a part of a serious couple before but he does seem to want to learn.

When I tell him what I need, he does work hard to provide it (at least most of the time).

Please know that my comments come from a place of care and concern

I know, and don't worry about being a wet blanket. I post on here because I know sometimes I tend to overlook things in my own life that will be clearer to others, and I appreciate ALL comments and opinions, even when they are different from the majority.

Sometimes I may disagree with someone at the time, but I do store their opinion and sometimes I find that later they had a point.

cmego, thank you! I had read that years ago and had it in my head but had kind of forgotten what it was called. I know when things get intense it is normal for a guy to pull away a bit and process and I think that is actually healthy. Loss of independence and becoming a true couple is pretty serious. He does come back very affectionate, and he cried last night about knowing he had hurt me during his absence. We are trying to work thru this.

From a guy's perspective...

You had been married 17 years... New guy's never been married... He's trying to figure out the how, what, where's and why's to a committed full time relationship... That's a big adjustment...

One thing I've figured out is that we all operate in our own heads... You have a relationship narrative going on in your head and he has his relationship narrative going on in his head...

Although you might agree on things you both get there via completely different means...

I know I've interpreted actions and words of KD through my own filter and been 100% off base in what the intent/meanings or lack there of were...

I know that once the bloom came off the rose of the early easy/great days of the relationship my own filters kicked in and I started internalizing feelings on percieved slights... I was still processing things using the equations from the relationship I had with ex....

One thing I did was to tell my thoughts to just shut the fuck up...

There were some evenings when I "thought" KD was blowing me off... I was way off on that thinking... She really was just doing her thing...It came down to if I was ok with it... Using my infidelity filter, what she does is one hell of a lot better than the ex boinking the yard guy...

5 months? You're both still trying to figure out each other's styles and languages...

Don't over think it... Sounds like he's being true to himself and you are too... Whether you two can be true to yourselves while being a couple is still yet to be determined...

WB