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User Topic: Other Child
wblessed
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Member # 12797
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, December 16th (Sunday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

myoc&me

I have thus far only read your post and not the preceding one that you were replying to.

And I do believe you seem to be in the minority.

However, I disagree with some of your advice and I will explain why.

I think the fact that your H is trying to do the right thing by you and OC, speak volumes about his character. I would suggest that if your H truly want to make this work with you and his child,he should agree to mediated visitation with a third party without you and without OW initially.

undermines the family, undermines the marriage, public places and for limited times with gradual increases in time, I agree with that for the best interest of the child

Give her time to build trust that MM has the child's wellbeing at heart and that as a father he will protect him as she would.

Every child has 2 biological parents. Current laws tend to favor the mother. And I dont know any other way to say this but....if the woman didnt want to have a child with a MM, and she didnt want the wife to be the step-m of her child, then she should have not taken the risk. But she did and you cant go back in time and change what happened so she needs to accept the circumstances she helped create.

The wife DID NOT create the circumstance.

If her true concern is the child's wellbeing and not just the desire to have MM back in her life, once that confidence is there she will have less resistance to you.

While this may be true in some cases, why is the wife EXPECTED to be more considerate of her step-c, than the child's own mother is. From personally experience, I will tell you I have allowed c excluding me, (for OVER 2 years) and all it has done is to make matters worse...perpetuating the pain, of the COM, and the bs.
And how exactly is the wife supposed to know the true intentions of the OW BECAUSE they all cry 'for the child, for the child' but somehow fail to see that if they were really concerned for the child, they would let the child have peaceful visitation with the child's family (MM, wife, COM, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, etc). Does the married man get to tell the OW if the child is allowed to meet a new bf of the OW. I think not.

Kinda like after DDay, mm has to be an open book and giveup much of his privacy to regain the trust of BS for her to be comfortable in the relationship again.

I disagree. It is nothing like dday. The MM has NO OBLIGATION to the OW. A father has an obligation to his child, not the mother of the child. And BY CHOICE a man commits to an obligation to his wife.

I don't think that he should have to give up his family to be a part of OC nor do I think he should have to give up OC to be a part of his family.

On this I completely AGREE. And in a circumstance where a wife has agreed to accept the child into her family, the only one asking the man to give up anything is the OW, when she demands exclusion of the wife.

While there are similiarities each and every situation is different.

If my h and I were ever to divorce, I would expect no say so in who he married or if he had a gf. And I would teach my children to show respect for their step-mother...they wouldnt have to like her...but they would show respect due her position as their father's wife.

I believe OW get a bit confused about boundaries. Obviously they had no respect for the boundaries of marriage (same for the h) by having an affair, but when they have a child, they need to respect the boundaries if for nothing else but the child's sake. Sadly too often what happens is the OW encourages her own children to disrespect the institution of marriage and the wife.


Posts: 29 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: Eastern US
wblessed
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Member # 12797
Default  Posted: 12:19 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dust to dust

OK here is something I am struggling with. OW had her baby in October, we are still waiting for paperwork to do the dna testing. Well my dday was september of last year and H swears up and down that he was never with her again. OW wrote me several emails stating otherwise and now I don't know who to trust or believe until this dna test is done. My problem has two parts to it. One, if h is the father than I am not sure I will stay with him for obvious reasons. That is the easier route.

Most, if not all the time, the ws never is completely honest. You will find out more and more as time goes on. I have heard it referred to as the 'fog' and it takes awhile after the affair has ended and there is nc with the OW for some of it to lift. I believe it is a coping mechanism and the ws often wants to just forget it happened instead of face what he has done and accept the full consequences.

The harder one is this, if I stay then of course I will have to accept OC as a part of my life, my son's life and my h's life.

You are correct. If you remain in the marriage, you will have to accept your step-child as part of your life and your son's life. However, even if you leave the marriage, you will have to accept the child being part of your son's life.

However, I know OW will make it extremely hard and I dont want to deal with her bull shit anymore. I mean we don't even know if h is the father and she already has set down barracades in our situation. So, what I am trying to get at is this. For those of you who have an OC and who are fully reconciled.
How do you not look at that child and think omg he/she is a direct reminder of what transpired?

This is how I look at it. All children are a blessing and gift from God. The sins of the mother and father DOES not define who the child is. God created the soul of the child, not the father and mother. Adultery was the sin, not the birth of the child or the existence of the child. I understand what you are saying and I do believe that if you chose to stay and you are able to integrate the child into your family, you will grow to love the child and it will be easier once you have established a relationship with the child to no longer see this child as having anything to do with the mother or the adultery.

It is the pain of the betrayal you are dealing with and the mere fact that you are acknowledging that you recognize the child may remind you of the betrayal means you are honestly thinking things through...which is part of recovery.

That is what I am struggling with. I'm just afraid that I will have so much resentment because of the simple fact this child was born. Now I know it is not his fault at all and he is completely innocent. Yet, I just can't help but to be mad at this whole entire situation.

By stating you fear you will have resentment I think that speaks of your character. You do not wish to resent and you recognize it may be difficult to integrate the child into your family. That is being realistic. But dont sell yourself short and think you are not capable of loving and accepting this child.

I'm not saying that I'm going to mistreat this child, but I just don't know how to accept him into my life if it comes down to that. I would sort of be like me accepting that my H did cheat on me post dday, IF he is the father.

If he did cheat on you then you MUST accept it (acknowledge what your h did and deal with it), by accepting it as fact that does not mean you must reconcile. To deny it, will only impede your recovery. However, regardless of if your h did in fact cheat on you, that has nothing to do with this child. By accepting this child, you are not saying it was right for your h to sin, you are not saying it was OK, you are being a good mother to your own son. It is hard for many bs to seperate the two, but I think in time, it will be easier.

I'm not sure I'm ready for that. I keep thinking that if he is the father, then maybe it would just be best to leave him and not have to deal with OW or OC directly again. Also if H is the father, then it would mean that everything OW has said to me in regards to what she says happened post dday would be true.

Even if one thing she said was true,it doesnt mean everything she said was true, be careful of not to draw that incorrect conclusion.

Of course H says that it never happened and he does have more credibility than OW does. OW is the one who is beating around the bush with getting the court papers done in a timely fashion. We both think its because she secretly doesn't want the dna testing but has now realized that if she doesn't go through the courts then she is not getting a single dime.
In the past, whenever we brought this up with her, she always retorted to my H by saying something like "oh I don't want to be viewed as a whore and if we do the dna test then that is how everyone will look at me." Ok first of all, we never even remotely called her a whore, even though I would have loved to. Secondly, you would think that she would be chomping at the bit to get this done through court because the judge will grant her as much money as she deems suitable for cs if h is the father.

Your h may be hoping the child isnt his and he may be in denial. And sorry but you can be a whore without being an adulteress, but you cant be an adulteress without being a whore. Research Webster's dictionary and you will see what I mean. And if that is the OW's concern, then it is obvious, she isnt concerned too much about her child and would rather have a shadow of doubt over the child instead of facing her sin, dealing with it,and having her child be deemed the legal child of your h.


Yet, she isn't. She is completely scared of the whole thing. I guess what I am trying to get at is this, how did you cope with the OC as being a part of your family's lives? Especially during the first few times you've gotten to see him/her?

And there are two possible reasons an OW would fight a DNA test. 1) maybe she isnt sure who the father is and 2) she will lose a certain amount of power and control over the situation if DNA establishs paternity and legal cs and visitation is court ordered.

Right now, she can play games and manipulate, while there may be a stipulation for a gradual integration of the child into your family, it wouldnt be as long and drawn out as the OW would like.

I am 2 years past d-day and in my case I have yet to meet EITHER of the 2 alleged step-c. I found out Aug 05, the children were 15 & 9. I recommended an initial meeting in a public place between our 2 children, these 2 children and my h and I and then gradual integration. However, my h thought the 15 year old girl needed more time, so I stepped back and I have allowed contact excluding me and our children....I did this in the best interest of these children....and my own children.

Because my h is the only one they have ever known to be referred to as their father, I didnt push DNA because I believe that it would be more devastating on a child 15 or 9 to find out he wasnt.

While things have gotten better in our marriage and we are 95% reconciled, the behavior of the surrogate is no different and sadly she uses the children to attempt to disrupt our home.

She has been very successful at basically teaching her own daughter that marriage is nothing, and that it is OK to have premarital sex, it is OK to lie, steal or cheat if that is what it takes to get what you want. And if you are jealous of someone, it is ok to twist the truth to try to gain sympathy from a man.

And how is this for teaching a child what love and respect is. The girl (no doubt encouraged by her mother) has no desire to see my h IF I am anywhere around and has no desire to come to visit my h at our house 'because I live there'. And why does this girl have such an attitude against a person she has never met in her life? Well, because she knows no different than to believe what ever her mother says.
So you can see how in my case, the mother expects and asks her own child to carry her sin for her, instead of dealing with it herself.

The boy who is 12. Well sadly, his mother simply will not allow him to have time with my h, if I am around. My h has no desire to pursue anything legal and would rather not deal with it. So many of these situations, the children are still young and I dont think too many people are thinking about what about in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years.

So I havent faced integration, but I think if and when it happens, I will be able to just get to know the child at first and then will be able to develop a relationship and love them.

What I have done, is this. I have bought them b-day and Christmas gifts. Our teenager d ask why I was doing this last Christmas and said you should have to. And my response was, I dont have to, I make the willful choice to, because that is who I am and I will not hold these children responsible for something they had no knowledge nor did they give any consent to. At first, I didnt feel like it but I did it anyway and I dont regret it.
And I know that I set a good example for my own children.

Integration will be much harder now, since my steps back has resulted in the surrogate in telling the children that I am the one who prevents my h from seeing them, when in fact the truth is, it is her.


Posts: 29 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: Eastern US
MYOC&ME
♀ Member
Member # 10539
Default  Posted: 12:50 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi blessed,

undermines the family, undermines the marriage, public places and for limited times with gradual increases in time, I agree with that for the best interest of the child

Every child has 2 biological parents. Current laws tend to favor the mother. And I dont know any other way to say this but....if the woman didnt want to have a child with a MM, and she didnt want the wife to be the step-m of her child, then she should have not taken the risk. But she did and you cant go back in time and change what happened so she needs to accept the circumstances she helped create.

I disagree and this is why. Even though OW made a bad choice getting involved with a MM and having a child by him, she does not give up her right to ensure that that child is safe. I may be in the minority but I think we can all agree that this is not a standard blended family situation. No, MM dont get to say who or if OW can have another BF, but as a father I think it is his responsibility to intervene if this person is a threat to the child's well being.

I by no means think that the BS should be exclude from having contact with OC. I think that if she stays married to MM and contact is to be succesful and health her involvement is imperative. I merely suggest doing it in stages and OW IS NOT included in any visitation with MM and OC. You can say "who cares about what she wants" but bottom line. If mamma aint happy nobody aint happy. If this is the attitude going in I am wondering why even go in?

why is the wife EXPECTED to be more considerate of her step-c, than the child's own mother is
I dont recall saying this. I think that in the suggestion I presented it was under the circumstanse that the wife had made the decision to support her husband in developing a relationship with his child. I think that the pace will have to be a judgement call (2yrs) IMO is not a building up to include BS.
I disagree. It is nothing like dday. The MM has NO OBLIGATION to the OW. A father has an obligation to his child, not the mother of the child. And BY CHOICE a man commits to an obligation to his wife.
giving OW time to become comfortable with the situation is not about an obligation. Ii is about doing his part to minmize the stress of the situation that could lead to a loss of a relationship with his child. He does have an obligation to the child to at least try. He can't control OW or how she reacts to visitations, he can't make her "just allow peaceful" visitations he can however try and loosen the middle of the struggle and just maybe OW will loosen her end and this child can be a part of this family.

[This message edited by MYOC&ME at 1:19 AM, December 17th (Monday)]


Decided today that how I got here is less important that what I do here.

Posts: 230 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Eastcoast
usuallycoping
New Member
Member # 17404
Default  Posted: 1:25 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sorry, i am a bit unclear here. are you saying 2 years of visitation without the wife? I would be willing to consider one visit (if ow was not there) but after that we would have to start integration. just me.

but honestly, it is none of ow's business who the dad brings his kid around. unless you can prove actual danger- sorry, it is just not.

the fact is, if h and i divorced,and he got together with ow- i would have no right to keep ow away from my baby,no matter what i wanted. it would have burned me up, and maybe i would have pulled every controlling manouver under the sun but if he took me to court here i would have been out of luck.

and, may i add that i do not really buy this argument

t does not sound to me that you are a threat to her child, but I did not betray your friendship, sleep with your husband and have a baby by him....KWIM.

if i am reading this correctly her guilt about her actions are somehow justification for the contention about me being a danger? that is just paranoid thinking, assuming that everyone else will be as uncaring as she was and thus punishing me for her actions. catering to this is not an option imo.

she does not say this, btw, she says that there are certain things that they need to discuss re. the child that i should not be around for, that the 3 of us together is tense for the baby etc. etc..

you cannot prevent your kid from having a stepmother that does not like them. it does not work like that.

if we were willing to go legal there would be no question of her making this call. the fact that we are not going that route means for us that at some point we are willing to walk for a time, keeping the door open to oc, not roll over.

H cannot control ow's reaction to visitation but neither does she get her way by having a tantrum. this is a bottomless pit and i think it is better to get the boundries clear immediately so no mixed messages are sent.

again , she is only balancing one obligation here- that to her child. he has several and if they start to conflict due to unacceptable stresses than he will have to make a choice.


Posts: 11 | Registered: Dec 2007
MYOC&ME
♀ Member
Member # 10539
Default  Posted: 2:17 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

if i am reading this correctly her guilt about her actions are somehow justification for the contention about me being a danger? that is just paranoid thinking, assuming that everyone else will be as uncaring as she was and thus punishing me for her actions. catering to this is not an option imo.
no, my point was that I and interacting with you here. I am not on the otherside of your coin as OW is. I don't know what kind of interactions the two of your have had or the vibes she has gotten from you. I don't know it she have any guilt or remorse. One could only hope.

H cannot control ow's reaction to visitation but neither does she get her way by having a tantrum. this is a bottomless pit and i think it is better to get the boundries clear immediately so no mixed messages are sent.
this was my response to blessed, I can only say that the person that loses in this stand off is OC. OW may or may not feel pain for her child's loss of a father but it will not hurt her directly. I just think it is sad that these two people could be in harmony to do something as destructive and amoral as have an affair yet cant for a second set anger aside to do something as good and honarable as raise the child they created.

BTW, this was not an argument that I was trying to sell. I truely believe that the burn of this situation can stop.

In my situation I don't encourage contact by my son's father. If he and his wife wanted to have contact I would do whatever I could to facilitate it. I would insist on mediated visitation initially(wife welcome). Not, because I fear his wife presence in my son's life but because I fear his father's presense in his life.

I have no bitterness in my heart and the anger is leaving every moment of everyday. I fell blessed to have my son. He is the light that guides me home when I allow my faith to weaver.

I got the best part of this situation. Diaper, bottles and all. At times I do still hurt for my son that he will not have his father. But, that small selfish corner of me is glad that I can love and raise my son without the input of a woman that hates me and does not have my child best intrest at heart.

I must say that it is reading boards like this that has allowed me to embrace the concept of NC.


Decided today that how I got here is less important that what I do here.

Posts: 230 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Eastcoast
sparkle76
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Member # 13108
Default  Posted: 5:47 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

haven't had a chance to read through everything, so if some of this stuff was covered already, just take it with a grain of salt

dust to dust~ about the paperwork....maybe that depends on what county you are dealing with. In our sitch, it's actually been a mix of both registered mail and regularly delivered mail...including some stuff I actually thought SHOULD have been signed off on....things with very personal information (SS numbers, work addresses etc.). Paternity papers will most likely need to be signed for, since they want proof that the alleged father is well aware of the actions being taken, and can't say that he "didn't know" about it.

MY OC~ there are a lot of points of contention in your posts. About the OW not trusting OC to be around me~ at least in my situation, it is ironic for the OW to be like this, because I babysat for OC and his half-sister, before DDay happened. I think he was about 4/5 months old when I found out, I had been taking care of OC's half-sister for at least a year before he came along. So OW had trusted me to care for her children, including OC....and then suddenly she gets indignant and claims that I'm not to be around him? FWH and I both felt that was unreasonable and hypocritical.

Even more hypocritical, is the fact that OW has argued for her 1st XH (the one she had the PFA and restraining order against) to pick up OC and spend time with him.....and for all we know, OC is around him when we don't have visitation. And when my FWH tried to talk to her about the issue, she got mad and indignant saying that it shouldn't matter if the guy was proved abusive twice....it was "in the past"! Basically saying that if she feels that OC should be around an ex-abuser, then that will be that....but she will "put her foot down" on not letting me pick up OC or be around him at all when my H is at work or running errands.

Now if she doesn't like the idea of me being around OC because she knows that she betrayed me....MHO is that it's part of the accountability she should take for her choice to intrude on my marriage and my husband's relationship with COM. MY OC~ I know you come from a different place, because you didn't know your MM was married. But I think when an OW definitely DOES know about the marriage, and still wants to have MM's baby....I think that's a different ballgame. Our WS give up privacy because they had the affair, I feel that OW also has to give certain things up for her choices, and that includes trying to boss the married couple around and say "You can't do this, you better do this as *I* want" etc. The OW is not the only parent. I feel that for an OW to say that OC can only have contact with his father under certain conditions (barring things like past proven abuse) like not having the BW around, is rather self-centered. Ideal parenting is supposed to be cooperative, with things that BOTH parents try to agree to.


Me~ BW 37
fWH~37
Married 14 years
6 children together and he has a son from his A
D-day #1~ May 4th, 2002
D-day #2~ June 27th, 2002
D-day of OC's paternity~ June 30th, 2004

slowly reconciling

Looking for the rainbow after the storm


Posts: 241 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: PA
sparkle76
♀ Member
Member # 13108
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just have a different view on the issue of what OC knows about how he came to be....saying that for him to know or for us BW to say that the affair was wrong is "cruel"....I don't quite understand this, MY OC. Are you saying that the affair was not wrong? I know it is a VERY fine line in this sitch, but I just feel that there is a way to get the message across that while the affair was wrong (because of the dishonesty, especially), the child is not "bad". I feel it is important for kids in general to learn that people make mistakes, and it's ok....so long as one picks themselves back up and tries from there on out to be the best person/parent/student etc. that they can be.

I know it is a touchy subject, but my FWH has admitted to me that he does feel differently towards OC than our own kids. And there's a big reason I can understand why...we had our kids together. And by this I mean, he knew when I was pregnant, he was there for all of their births, saw them grow up before his eyes, helped teach them...etc. OC is, quite literall, almost a stranger to him. OW swore up and down from the time she found out she was pregnant that there was NO chance that OC was my H's kid (later she said a 1% chance, out of 99% that he WASN'T because protection was used and etc.). The test results didn't come until OC was 2 and a half. And even after that, FWH only got to see OC sporadically.

So, no, my FWH didn't bond in the same way that he did with our kids. And again, I don't blame him or think he is a bad person or parent for not doing everything in his power to fight against OW and do whatever it takes to be close to OC. There are toxic people, and the most common advice is not to deal with toxic people, if it can be avoided. That's what makes this sitch so complicated~ if OW chooses to be toxic, and the only way to be close to OC is to go through OW.

I firmly believe that the power and control issues are at the root of a lot of the emotions and opinions in this sitch. Nobody likes to feel forced or controlled, but OW in our case calls all the shots, and is not trying to be a co-parent. So there is a noticeable difference in how my H feels about our kids, and how he feels towards OW and OC. He cares about OC because he is also his flesh and blood. But he doesn't know him the same way that he knows our kids. I didn't force our kids and my "rules" upon him...we discuss things. Even when we had separated, I made sure that he got to spend time with our children, and I didn't run to the courts to stick him for as much money as I could get. So, yes, there are differences between us.

Nowadays though, we just use the times that visitation happens to take care of OC, and our kids spend time with him and they play pretty much the whole time. I, personally, treat it as if I'm babysitting him again~ I don't kiss him on the cheek like I do to my kids, but other than things like that, OC blends in with our kids here. If I do have bad feelings and emotions inside, I go to a separate room and write, or do things to get my mind off of it. When I've got it out of my system, I go back and watch all the kids play again.


Me~ BW 37
fWH~37
Married 14 years
6 children together and he has a son from his A
D-day #1~ May 4th, 2002
D-day #2~ June 27th, 2002
D-day of OC's paternity~ June 30th, 2004

slowly reconciling

Looking for the rainbow after the storm


Posts: 241 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: PA
sparkle76
♀ Member
Member # 13108
Default  Posted: 6:36 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, I forgot

dust to dust~ I knew you had said how you didn't know how you could accept your H cheating again after D-Day. Maybe I misspoke. I'm in somewhat of a similar sitch, because H and OW had a weekend together about a month after D-Day. So, when I think about the affair, it gets a little jumbled in my mind because there's what I consider the affair (Feb. 2000 to April? 2001) and then the "incident" in June 2002. Even though both are cheating, obviously. Now I've learned about how WS have The Fog, how they can't always jump into NC with the AP right away.....I've learned that I'm not the only one whose WW had post D-Day slip-ups and setbacks.

Anyway, I guess what I was trying to say was that even if it's proven that your H cheated again after D-Day, you already know that he's been unfaithful, and that's what we BW have to accept....and decide where we go from there.

crossing my fingers for you


Me~ BW 37
fWH~37
Married 14 years
6 children together and he has a son from his A
D-day #1~ May 4th, 2002
D-day #2~ June 27th, 2002
D-day of OC's paternity~ June 30th, 2004

slowly reconciling

Looking for the rainbow after the storm


Posts: 241 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: PA
anne181986
♀ New Member
Member # 12873
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting in this forum. I have been married for 9 months. I have recently found out that my that there is a possible OC. When I first found out, there were a lot of lies being told. After all of the lies, I have finally been able to get the real answers. The oc was conceived in Sept/Oct of 2006; which was only a few months before we were married in March of 2007. Long story...when my husband (then boyfriend) had sex with this woman, she was in a long-term relationship with someone else. As a result, when the child conceived, they both figured that it was her boyfriend's since she has "more" unprotected sex with him than she did my husband. HOW IGNORANT??? Since when does that determine whose baby it is?? I'm 21, she's 32...and I'm smarter than she is. So, here recently the OW felt that she wanted to really know who the baby's father was. My husband did an online dna test that said that he couldn't be excluded as the father. When he found this is out is when he came to me and told me what was going on. We talked about it and we felt that no contact was the best way. We told the ow and she flipped out. Two weeks later, we got a subpoena in the mail to come to court for a hearing petitioning child abandonment. Our court date is on Wednesday. However, the online dna tests cannot be used in the court of law. We also found out that sometimes when the mother isn't tested also, a dna test can give false positives. And she was not tested with the online test. Yesterday, when we went out for breakfast we were talking about the situation and he was saying that he didn't think it was fair to the child to be without a father, just because of the situation. I hate to say this but this killed me when he said that. I don't want to come off selfish and rude but I was sort of happy when we decided on the NC. Ever since yesterday I have been sick to my stomach. I can't imagine him going to spend time with the OC with the OW there, like they're this big happy family.....AHHHHHH!!!!!I HATE THIS!!! We came to the decision that the only there will be contact is if we meet in a neutral place and pick up the oc there and take her home with us. I don't mind having her everyother weekend. The little girl looks just like my husband and I love her already. We have a picture of her and I have fallen in love with her. I know that my emotions seem all over the place and they really are. I will be very happy if the OW will accept letting us take the oc twice a month. But I think that she's only going to want my husband to come and see the oc at her place. My husband says that if she won't compromise letting us take her than they'll just be NC. By the way, the OW hates me. She doesn't know me, has never met me, but assumes that I'm a bitch that wants my husband to have NC. I wanted all three of us to meet, and talk about the situation but she said that it was "too much" for her right now and she wasn't ready. Too much for her??? I'm his fu**ing wife, it's too much for me but I'm having to suck it up and deal with this situation!!!! So to let it be clear, I want there to be contact but only if we can bring the baby home with us and only if there is nc between my husband and the ow unless i'm there. The said thing is, I don't think she's going to accept. She keeps saying "why does she (me) have anything to do with the situation? This is our child, so only me and you should be compromising" The only problem is that she doesnt understand my role as is wife. She doesn't get it. I'm sorry it's so long, I'm just a wreck right now. Am I wrong for wanting contact only under these circumstances?

Posts: 18 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: Atlanta, GA
firstandthird
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Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

in a word, no. you are not wrong to feel that way. I'm in a similar situation. The possible OC is not born yet, and we are waiting on a online DNA test. I wouldn't want him to have contact with OW, just the OC. I think it is very important that he takes care of his child, if it is. The child will want to know about his father someday. I know it is very hard, but you sound like a strong person and seem to be handling this very well considering the circumstances. When I first found out what he did, I was in favor of NC with either OW or OC. But after I had time to think it through, I know the child will be an innocent bystander and will need his/her father. I am still wrestling with what I will do. I think it is very admirable you are able to love that child and put your anger towards OW aside. Keep posting and update us. This forum has been a great support to me and I know it will be to you.


Me: BS 26
Him: WS(ONS) 27
Wedding Day: Mar 17, 2007
ONS: Sept 4, 2007
OC born: May 22, 2008
Nov 25, 2008: Found out the OC is not his!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 108 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: ohio
over&out
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Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, a lot going on here the last couple of days!

For everyone: I think it's important to understand that we are all posting about our own individual circumstances, and that we are speaking to our own choices, exMM, C or NC, etc and to not take anything personally.

That being said, I want to give a huge shout out to Dovey, who IS an OC, and I'm glad you are here and hope you will stick around and post often! Your insight is crucial for all of us here! Please don't be afraid to post!

For those of you on here who have not gone the legal route and are having problems w/the OW regarding contact, PLEASE get a lawyer and go to court. If you do this, then a lot of the BS you are going through will be negated, and if the OW continues to be a pain in your rear end, you have a legal route to pursue!

Anne, I think you are doing a wonderful job so far in trying to include the OC into your life. YOU are going into this situation with a clear head, and hoping for the best even though you do have your reservations. And that is fine to have your reservations, but your best weapon in this situation is your positive outlook. Please keep your outlook positive and give it a chance to work. From your post it seems everything is still relatively "raw", and you all (U,H,OC,OW) are trudging your way through these muddy waters. It's early on, emotions are running super high right now for all of you - so keep doing what you are doing, and give it more time to allow all the emotional highs to start diminishing. Kill the OW with kindness. Even if the OW puts up a fight in the beginning, give it some more time to settle down. Sometimes things can't be fixed overnight, and I think sometimes everyone in this situation wants that to be the case and it's just not realistic to think that way. Just like after divorces it takes time for wounds to heal, emotions to settle, and for parents to realize even after all the hurt, angry words, and negative feelings, it IS possible to co-parent amicably, even with an exOW still in the picture.

I think the biggest problem in the OC situation is everyone (OW,exMM,wife) go into this being paranoid, and automatically assuming the worst. Everyone wants to think that this is about revenge, or getting back at someone, or even continuing the affair. Therefore, defenses are up, and it's "war" time. If you go into this thinking that, then this situation doesn't have a chance in hell of working out, it was over before it even started.


Me: 33(FOW)My son: 1yr(OC)
Some actions,despite how wed wish to dismiss them,carry lasting consequences that cant be fixed by longing or the realization of the mistakes made. There is forgiveness, enough for all of us, but there is no forgetting

Posts: 187 | Registered: Aug 2007
over&out
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Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MYOC&ME

I just wanted to give you hugs today! I appreciate your input and kind words on a daily basis. When this happened to me, to be honest, I wasn't aware that there were more people out here in my situation. For some reason, I didn't think that the OC situation happened all that often. I'm glad I found the few OW w/OC's on here that I did. It gives me a fresh perspective, a sounding board, advice when I need it and an uplifting word or two on a crappy day when I need it!

To all the BS spouses on here, whether you believe it or not, I appreciate all your input as well, and I respect the hell out of you all, Contact or No Contact. I'm not here to judge anyone, I'm just looking for insight into this situation that effects us all! Thank you!


Me: 33(FOW)My son: 1yr(OC)
Some actions,despite how wed wish to dismiss them,carry lasting consequences that cant be fixed by longing or the realization of the mistakes made. There is forgiveness, enough for all of us, but there is no forgetting

Posts: 187 | Registered: Aug 2007
crazedNconfused
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Member # 11075
Default  Posted: 2:15 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i think we can all agree that the subject of an OC is a touchy one. I don't think that anyone can understand what a BS feel or is going through unless they have personally in the situation themselves. we are all entitled to our own opinions and thoughts.

to the OW on this site, some of your perspective and thoughts have been helpful. and you may be different from the OW that we BS have to deal with on a day to day basis. but i do ask kindly that you not take it upon yourselves to judge or lecture anyone of us on this site. i dont think you can ever understand what it is we go through on a day to day basis. and yes, your answer may be that it is a choice we made by staying with our FWH and you are correct. but we come to this site for support, we are not here to have our moral characters, or even our H's moral characters (in the case of choosing NC) questioned or judged.

in one blog, i think someone attempted to compare the conception of OC as to having an unplanned pregnancy in a marriage and that just completely boggles my mind. every situation is different, but in my situation where the OC was from a ONS...that can hardly be compared to an unplannned pregnancy in a marriage. it is almost insulting and a complete slap in the face of a BS to make that comparison.

Crap happens in life...we all get that, we all are living through it and trying to survive. But it is life...our OC's exists...that is life, nothing can be done about it now and that permanent reminder of our H's infidelity will forever exist. Everyone here will live each day to make the best of their situations but let's be real here, nothing is perfect.

BS are not bad people or immoral people just because we are not going over and beyond the call of duty to make OC's life as normal as possible. It's just not reality...OC's lives are hurt and in best case scenerio they will grow up having their two biological parents and then a step-mom and hopefully someday when OW finds herself a man...also a step-dad.

Yes, in an ideal world...everyone would be happy. In an ideal world our H would not have betrayed us. In an ideal world divorce wouldn't exists and children wouldn't hurt. But you know what...this life, this world is NOT ideal. And we, BS, OW, FWH just do the best we can.

But as BS it is not our burden to bare if the OC's life is not ideal. My H is not a bad man if he doesn't tell OC that he loves him everyday as he does my son..and guess what? My son was unplanned. Of course the relationships are going to be different. If this world was ideal and if it was as simple as some would hope. This site wouldn't exists and we all wouldn't be here. Some day when my son grows up he will ask how mommy and daddy met and we will have a wonder love story to tell him. We don't have to sit here and make up a story. Someday when OC asks how mommy and daddy met, what is there to say but the truth using kind words of course. "we met in a club one night, had sex, and you were made. i told your father about you when you were 9 months old" You see...no wonderful love story.

It really is sad...but when I 1st found out about my situation, I thought that I was alone. I found this website and saw that I wasn't. It was a happy and sad moment b/c it really is sad that human beings are capable of hurting one another in this fashion and with each generation the hurt just continues.


Posts: 104 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Texas
usuallycoping
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Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just think it is sad that these two people could be in harmony to do something as destructive and amoral as have an affair yet cant for a second set anger aside to do something as good and honarable as raise the child they created.

not much chance to write today but just to continue our dialogue me and my oc:
The above really makes no sense to me. in so many cases the affair partners were `coming together' thoughtlessly, callously, drunkenly, high (our oc was conceived on hard drugs), using massive powers of compartmentalization and in my h's case, detachment.

why such
a `relationship' would indicate an ability to work together for the good of the child is beyond me. the whole point of the affair relationship is that it is a unreal fantasy and it is completely selfish. that does not suddenly disapear inn either of these two people. lucky oc.

H and i were together 8 years before we discussed it and decided to have a child.

that is why, even under enormous pressure of this sitch and through periods of living apart while recovering, we have managed to talk and figure out the best thing for our child. it is why we will probably get through this. they have no basis for a working relationship.

I can only say that the person that loses in this stand off is OC.

i think my h loses in this situation too, but he stands to lose either way. the oc has lost from jump street. i think the burn can be stopped and circumstances can be mitigated but the facts of oc's life are never going to change. chances are at some point it is going to cause the child pain. its life, its his life, these things cannot be undone.

my niece has no dad for different reason. that is not without its issues even though she has tons of people and is incredibly loved. you did not go into it knowing the whole score, my ow did but she refused to consider what it would be like for the child. (literally in an email to me - refused)

the `if mamma ain't happy' thing only goes so far. that phrase refers to the household. i am the mamma that he has to keep happy. i am his home. he does not have two.

H has had to choose his priorities and he has clearly chosen us. we would like oc in our life but if ow wants to make him choose between me and oc she is doing her child yet another diservice.
our objection is to h and ow spending time together without me. period. this is what she insists on.

as for what she thinks i feel for her. she has called me names (through email) - i never have her (except selfish).
she continually tries to hurt me through `dropping' peices of info she thinks that i don't know into emails to h that are supposed to be about oc.

i do not like her. the day after d-day i sent her a bunch of texts where i called her selfish and said i could not beleive she had done this to me.

her reply: `i didn't do anything to you' `this just happened' `this is hard for me too' `i know your hurting but its not my fault' oh, and my personal favorite `your not the boss of me' not much remorse.
and that was it.

the only time we have spoken since then (a year and a half ago)was at the visit when i kept it to generic baby talk and was perfectly civil to her. i do not like her, i will never like her, with very good reason. that does not mean that she gets to control over h's relationship with oc.

if she had told him that she did not want him in oc's life he would have walked. no problem. she said she wanted oc to have a dad, so he went and told his whole family, friends (unlike her) and now she says she is not sure she does if it means i am in oc's life.

you just can't have another parent and total control. even if you feel entitled to it. i would go so far as to say this includes your sitch. if yous ds is still in diapers and if xmm
is not abusive there would only be brief time that you could insist on the terms you outlined if he objected. that would suck for you, as you were duped, but you would still have to deal with the fallout/ life is so unfair, i know this myself

anyway again back ow in our case: i have mountains of reason not to trust her, she has no reason not to trust me. again projection of guilt is not a valid excuse and this kind of thing makes kids lose out. they lose out for their parent's behavior all the time. i know, i work with them everyday

i am glad you are having fun with your baba and honestly it sounds to me like nc is the right thing in your sitch.


Posts: 11 | Registered: Dec 2007
crazedNconfused
Member
Member # 11075
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anne,

stand your ground girl!! you do not let this OW get the best of you. i commend your H for making it clear that he is committed to you and that you guys are a package deal. and you are an incredibly big person for feeling so much love already for the child. trust me, you will want the child to know you sooner than later. our OC has been with us since he was 10 mo old. we have always seen him together and he calls me mommy. i will never understand how any OW thinks that they have any leverage or say in who gets to spend time with the child. i understand that not all OW are like that, for instance the OW in my case. but i can only assume that OW who do not want the BS involved does not have the best interest of the child at heart but have a more selfish agenda in mind.

i was at a holiday party this weekend and had a nice chat w/ a friend and he reminded me that we are better and bigger people. these OCs will grow up seeing the happy family that my H and i can provide. anyways...stand your ground. OW should not be calling the shots and if it ends up that you have to go NC, then do you do what you have to do.


Posts: 104 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Texas
wblessed
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Default  Posted: 5:46 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

me&myoc

I disagree and this is why. Even though OW made a bad choice getting involved with a MM and having a child by him, she does not give up her right to ensure that that child is safe.

I was not talking about giving up the safety of any child. If there is any abuse of a child, be it physical or mental then any mother needs to pursue LEGAL measure to protect her child. Not in all cases, but in some cases, the OW doesnt KNOW the wife, doesnt KNOW anything about the wife and just because she has a concern about WHAT MIGHT BE, doesnt mean that she should have the total say so. If she doesn't trust a man, to protect a child, why would she allow the man to have any contact with the child. It is OK for the man to be around the child...as long as the wife is excluded...that has nothing to do with the safety of the child, that has to do with the unresolved personal issues of the OW.

I may be in the minority but I think we can all agree that this is not a standard blended family situation.

I agree this is not a standard blended family. And an OW should not expect or feel she is entitled to the same things an ex-wife is entitled to.

No, MM dont get to say who or if OW can have another BF, but as a father I think it is his responsibility to intervene if this person is a threat to the child's well being.

This is my exact point, but on the flip side. IF THE PERSON IS A THREAT TO THE CHILD'S WELL BEING, not just because the OW may think a step-mom MIGHT be unkind to her child.


I by no means think that the BS should be exclude from having contact with OC. I think that if she stays married to MM and contact is to be succesful and health her involvement is imperative.

Totally agree with this. The affair is over,and everyone needs to put the past in the past AND keep it there and the child should feel loved and welcomed in both homes of each parent. Excluding the wife, draws attention to the affair, if the OW would just step back, then the integration of the child into the marital family would be so much easier for the child. My point is the OW needs to allow peaceful visit and not try to interfer and leave it up to the husband and wife, when, where, how, how slow, how fast, etc.. the child will be introduced to the wife, the COM, and other extended family members.

I merely suggest doing it in stages and OW IS NOT included in any visitation with MM and OC.

I am not against stages and I agree 1000% with integrating the child into the marital family in stages depending on the age of the children (ALL THE CHILDREN) and the individual circumstances.

You can say "who cares about what she wants" but bottom line. If mamma aint happy nobody aint happy. If this is the attitude going in I am wondering why even go in?

You are right, if mamma aint happy aint nobody happy. In many case mamma was mamma--the wife and mother---before the OW ever entered the picture and became a mamma. Somthing that should be considered on both sides.

why is the wife EXPECTED to be more considerate of her step-c, than the child's own mother is
I dont recall saying this. I think that in the suggestion I presented it was under the circumstanse that the wife had made the decision to support her husband in developing a relationship with his child.

You did not say this. I said this. And my point being, if the MM chose to stay with his wife, that is his choice and nothing the OW can do about it. She can either set self aside and not be an obstacle to family integration of the child. Or she can cry, I dont know your wife so until I feel comfortable with it, you can only see the child IF you are alone. Which can be seen as her using the child to play games. What does the OW really want? Does she want the child to have as normal as possible like and be loved and accepted by all of the child's family members or does she want to dictate decisions that are the h and w's decision.


I think that the pace will have to be a judgement call (2yrs) IMO is not a building up to include BS.

I agree. And it is one reason why I no longer advise bs to give it time. In my case, the OW specifically used the girl as an excuse and continues to use the girl as an excuse....the girl needs more time she says. My philosophy was let there be an intial meeting in a public place, of step-mother and COM with the OC. I even said OW was welcome to come and observe. I have made it clear the OW is even welcome to come to my home-WHEN I AM PRESENT because I would think any mother would feel more comfortable seeing the home where their child may be staying the night and spending time. The OW in my situation has never showed ANY consideration for our children,where I have bent over backwards & while seeing the hurt in my children's eyes and even though I 100% could relate to the pain they were feeling, I AS A MOTHER, continued to urge my children to not hold the children responsible for the sins of the parents and I encouraged them to reach out to the children. My children told me they did not want to betray me and I assured them the only 2 people to betray me was my h and the other children's mother (she knew my h was married) that in no way could they betray me by establishing a relationship with another child. That relationship would be independent of my relationship with them. I encourage contact between the children. While the OW, started demanding that even my d be excluded from contact...with absolutely no justifiable reason.

I disagree. It is nothing like dday. The MM has NO OBLIGATION to the OW. A father has an obligation to his child, not the mother of the child. And BY CHOICE a man commits to an obligation to his wife.
giving OW time to become comfortable with the situation is not about an obligation. Ii is about doing his part to minmize the stress of the situation that could lead to a loss of a relationship with his child.

Ok, now this is what I was talking about WHY is the h's responsibility to minimize the stress on the OW....what about the stress on the wife...and why is there the threat of loss of a r with his child IF the h doesnt cater to the OW. Back again to more is expect of a wife toward her step-c than the OW expects to sacrifice her wants in the best interest of peaceful visitation for the child. Does the OW really want the child to have a relationship with the father, or is that only conditional on what the OW wants---I was not talking about the safety of the child.

He does have an obligation to the child to at least try.

Agreed and on the flip side, the mother has an obligation to the child to at least TRY. Whether she does it or not, is her responsibility, not his.

He can't control OW or how she reacts to visitations, he can't make her "just allow peaceful" visitations he can however try and loosen the middle of the struggle and just maybe OW will loosen her end and this child can be a part of this family.

back again to the same thing, accomodating the OW when there is no evidence of any threat to the child, doesnt loosen the middle of the struggle, and why exact should it be the h that has to accomodate the OW, look at the flip side, nothing is prevent the OW to from setting self aside for the best interest of the child. You would think if she felt an ounce of remorse for her involvement with a MM, she would see that maybe she isnt going to get her way all the time.

There is 2 sides. And I am just trying to communicate to you a side that I dont think you see. I understand the side you have presented, and in the best interest of children, I allowed visits excluding me, but sadly there has been no change in the OW. To me a clear sign, she does not have her child's best interest as her priority. She may think she does and she probably doesn't even realize how she keeps projecting her sin on them and wants to make everything about her, decisions about children shouldnt be made based upon the fact that their mother committed adultery with a mm.

It is sad, but most of the time, that is the way it is.


Posts: 29 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: Eastern US
dovey
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Member # 1614
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Over and Out, Thanks for the welcome. I really identify with the bs side of the equation. I was kept in the dark about my status as an OC and then of course as the bw. I have gained a lot from reading here, it has helped me understand what my parents must have felt and the LTP of my father. I really wasn't sure it was appropriate for me to comment on anything, but I am more than open to talking about it now. I can always try to answer any questions anyone may have. One thing I wanted to say is that the OC can really suffer from this sitch more than you might think...in "protecting" me, my mother(ow) was really hurting me. She was doing the best she could, I realize now, and I am working on forgiveness. I have more I could say, but this is your space, and I feel more comfortable in the Recon section. I am around although I rarely post anymore.

[This message edited by dovey at 6:07 PM, December 17th (Monday)]


Happily reconciled, finally! And afterward I'd feel like I'd been chewing on ashes:no matter how I'd try to spit it out, the bad taste remained. Sayo Masuda

Posts: 2390 | Registered: Jun 2003 | From: north east
wblessed
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Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Read some more of the posts and I agree everyone brings something of their own situation, because that is who they are.

If me&myoc's child was my h's child, I can assure you the child would be welcomed in our home and I would take reasonable steps to calm any fears she would have in regard to me.

And I think something that makes you different me&myoc is BECAUSE you did not know the man was married. Many of the other OW KNEW.

I dont recommend any bs wait 2 years. My situation was different.

I believe contact should begin at the earliest age possible BEFORE the child is even aware of an adult issues.

My step-d (child with my h's 1st wife) is loved by all 4 her parents and she does not remember a time when it was anything else. IT was always mom & step-dad and dad & step-mom. She doesnt carry any issues with her. I was 16 when I went out ONE time with my h---who said he was d. He wasnt. WHen I found out he was I told him to get lost. But my mistake was several weeks later, when he moved out and they were preparing d papers---I rationalized and justified how theirs was a hs relationship that resulted in an unplanned pregnancy and I was involved with him BEFORE his d was final. I NEVER knowingly had any c with him while he was living with his wife. With that said, it is the way the 'adults' act after the fact, that more severely affects the children.
I make no excuses and I accept responsibility for my choices. I am not proud of them, but I face them and I dont blame my h's ex-wife for his behavior or my behavior.

Now FF to 19 years after we have been married and a 14 year old d, and I discover a 15 & 9 year old child. It is because of the ages of the children, I have been more hesitant to push the issue. But there is only so much I am willing to do for so long.

If the OW would not have hid her own child,and if cs and visitation would have been done in the open and legally a lot would be different. Very likely I may have left my h and divorced him then. I dont know. But I know that a lot of pain would have been spared. It is the woman who conceals the alleged paternity of her own child and negotiates that the man can have 'secret' visits with the child as long as the wife never knows. And then when the wife finds out and encourages contact, and the woman threatens involve the wife and you will lose all contact with the children. Unless of course my h would take her to court, demand a paternity test, and then get court ordered visitation, then there is nothing he can do (which is what I advised but it isnt my mess to clean up).

That is where I am coming from.

And to the OW with young children, that allow any secret visits or ask exclusion of the wife after d-day, I would have to ask, do you really want a focus on your sin in your child's life. The younger the child is the easier integration will be. What will you do when your children are 15, 20, 25?

Is it really too much to expect of you to stay out of the marriage, to step back and give an opportunity for the child to be integrated into the family.


Posts: 29 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: Eastern US
wblessed
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Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dovey

I welcome any insight you may have to share.

I originally sought adult OC online in order to see how I best could consider their circumstances and to find out from your perspective how I could be the best step-mother I could be to these 2 children.

I am sorry for any pain you have felt, but know that the circumstances surrounding your conception, DO NOT DEFINE WHO YOU ARE and it never will.

You are important to God, and there is a plan and a purpose for you.

God created your soul. You are not a mistake, because God doesnt make mistakes.
People make mistakes. But God doesn't. If the affair never happened you.....your soul who you are independent of any DNA, the part that will live beyond your physical body...would still exist, you would have been born into perhaps different circumstances or perhaps the same but maybe the people would have been different. You are more than a physical being, you have a soul, and it is precious in God's site.

God KNEW you BEFORE you were ever knit in your mother's womb.

May God richly bless you
Ann


Posts: 29 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: Eastern US
BMC0415
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Default  Posted: 7:04 PM, December 17th (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As I have said before, I don't think of any child as a mistake and quite honestly I don't treat the 3 OC any different then mine own.

They are innocent and have certain things that they are entitled to because they are children. I hear what everyone is saying, in my situation I think the OW was coooperative because she did n't care for the kids anyway and thought she had a babysitter.

I picked them up once a month at first to see how things would play out with my kids. Because as much as I care for these OC, my kids do come first. As the months went along I picked them up more and we developed a bond. I have a bond with the OC that is seperate than my H, as a mother figure.

Yes there is still some jealousy and resentment with my kids, but they have real sacrificed and so have their boyfriends to make these kids a part of our family. Our family is going to try to heal, I have a therapist who is working with the twins right now but will be working with the whole family in the near future.

And as I said before if OW gets her life together I will not cut her out of their lives she is still their mother no matter how much I hate her. And I do hate her! But I do not let that effect my care of the OC. But right now their safety from their own mother is what is important. A normal person would have tried to get themselves together after Child Protective Services took them from her, but not this woman. She actually took $25 from a group of crack addicts to use her house and I am sure this is the first time. The only difference is these innocent children are not there seeing things and having things done to them.

Dust- I am so sorry that you are still dealing with these issues after all this time. I thought DNA was going to be done. Is she still trying to have visits without you? We had not heard from you for a while so I thought you had some resolution, I am so sorry that you haven't. My H is going for DNA testing on 12/20 and we will know in 6 weeks. I demanded it. I have no problem with OC staying with us, but everyone deserves the truth and so do you. I will be thinking of you.

Welcome to Anne, First and third and Dovey.

[This message edited by BMC0415 at 7:36 PM, December 17th (Monday)]


Me: 40+ Him: 40+
Married: 20+ years
D-Day: 3/7/07
Children: 24dd,23ds,21dd
10 yr. LTA 3OC w/OW 10,10,14 8/14/12-gave custody of twins to ex 8/16/12-DIVORCED!

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