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Newest Member: DontWantToWakeUp (45711)

I Can Relate Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Agnostic/Atheist Support Group
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heh, Jrazz - the link I posted is "A Mathematical Proof That The Universe Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing"

So there's an option D.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7561 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Jrazz
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Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wasn't sure about the link, but I will look at it jusssssssst for you...


ETA: So... according to quantum potential... there may not even be a cat in Schrodinger's box? I think that we're overlooking the very significant Billy Preston Theory:

Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'
You gotta have somethin' if you wanna be with me


Seriously though, I see how this is a quick fix to the whole cosmological constant part of the equation, but I still don't accept that "nothing" on the cause side can produce an effect. Now, I think that your answer DOES fit in with a theological-meets-scientific theory type answer. Perhaps that was the day that our matter hit the petri dish?


[This message edited by Jrazz at 8:15 PM, April 14th (Monday)]


"Sometimes people are mean, and sometimes things will be hard. One of your jobs is to try and make sure that that never makes you mean and hard, too." Cord Jefferson's Mom

Posts: 18277 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 9:44 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's not a quick fix. It's the math behind an already existing explanation. It doesn't have much of anything to do with theology since it kind of shows that quantum fluctuations mean something can come out of nothing, without calling it god. Which is really just the same thing but with no math.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7561 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Jrazz
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Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think we're in agreement... if you're on board with "something from nothing = god" It may not be a man in a cloud, but it fits every other description.

It still seems to make more sense to me, in my limited and humble opinion, that there are physical concepts that just plain elude us because of our sensory limitations.


"Sometimes people are mean, and sometimes things will be hard. One of your jobs is to try and make sure that that never makes you mean and hard, too." Cord Jefferson's Mom

Posts: 18277 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

that there are physical concepts that just plain elude us because of our sensory limitations
Like magnets...how do THEY work?!?


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2256 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Jrazz
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Default  Posted: 10:39 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ascendant, if you're alluding to the fact that we HAVE made sense of the not-immediately-visible, well... duh. I'm not talking about electromagnetism, or up quarks even. I think that things can get a lot more complicated than our capacity to compute despite our advanced discoveries.

Still Going - Confession - I'm mostly fighting your nothing theory because it's not as warm and fuzzy as my everything theory.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 10:50 PM, April 14th (Monday)]


"Sometimes people are mean, and sometimes things will be hard. One of your jobs is to try and make sure that that never makes you mean and hard, too." Cord Jefferson's Mom

Posts: 18277 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was just being silly, Jrazz. This conversation reminded me of this: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fucking-magnets-how-do-they-work

Not mocking, Jrazz.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2256 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Jrazz
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Default  Posted: 11:50 PM, April 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I should hope the hell not - my wrath is terrifying to behold. #brutesquadcalledoff

I hope our ruminations on cosmic origins haven't t/j'd too much. I like the idea of community accountability and integrity being an agreed upon way to behave, but it can sometimes be hard without an "absolute power" to back your campaign. I really like that this thread explores why we can still subscribe to goodness without some kind of dogma attached.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 11:51 PM, April 14th (Monday)]


"Sometimes people are mean, and sometimes things will be hard. One of your jobs is to try and make sure that that never makes you mean and hard, too." Cord Jefferson's Mom

Posts: 18277 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
outside4me
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Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that we're overlooking the very significant Billy Preston Theory:

Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'
You gotta have somethin' if you wanna be with me


Fucking brilliant!
Tangent coming, somewhat of a t/j, but hear me out. Just watched "A Concert for George" the George Harrison tribute on youtube, where Billy Preston sings My Sweet Lord. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELOe3f-hihc

Could be we're just a fart in the windstorm of life, but "I really wanna see you, I really wanna know you" resonates to this hopeful agnostic (I like that Waffle House agnostic category mentioned earlier, too!).

Total t/j: check out that concert!

[This message edited by outside4me at 12:13 AM, April 15th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 218 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Colorado
SisterMilkshake
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Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks to all who shared their thoughts on the afterlife. I appreciate it. Have no idea what I believe anymore. Or don't believe.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It still seems to make more sense to me, in my limited and humble opinion, that there are physical concepts that just plain elude us because of our sensory limitations.

I agree with this more than you can guess. I ramble at my wife at length and her eyes glaze over when I jabber about the possibility that the top speed of massless particles is really about a state change where they can no longer 'exist' within the observable universe, or how based on this quantum fluctuation bubble the number of universes and their appearance and disappearance is infinite - but these are things we're likely never to have a direct line into unless we somehow manage to create tools that can delve between that shit.

I said the "something from nothing = god" as an example of a stop-thought, where god is just an answer that keeps us from further investigation. The quantum fluctuation thing - something from nothing - is fascinating because it really does give serious weight to the idea of a multiverse, even moreso than that weird shit going on with dark flow.

I understand not liking it because it doesn't provide a whole lot of comfort, but I will admit to the same from the other direction - the idea that something created me and then dropped me in a pile of shit on purpose isn't any less appealing than being some kind of petri dish experiment on my way to the intergalactic freezer.

I honestly don't feel that these things are beyond our comprehension - it's been less than a century that we understood that there was shit outside the Milky Way itself and that there were other galaxies out there. Getting there is trippy though - we need to figure out the bits and pieces that let us build bigger bits and pieces that fit together to make even bigger bits and pieces, and so on. Dark matter and black hole radiation aren't inexplicable but they're fucking weird (or Spooky as Neil de Grasse says, that guy is awesome) enough that we don't fully grasp it yet. When we do I am sure we will understand a bunch of shit that was incomprehensible before, and get a gander at a whole new crop of crazy bullshit.

I hope we don't figure everything out. The universe would get real boring.

eta:

tl;dr - "nothing" and "everything" are interchangeable where infinity is concerned.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:37 AM, April 15th (Tuesday)]


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7561 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Newlease
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Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I once took an online "test" to see which religion fit my core beliefs. The answer was Paganism, which I know nothing about. I think I'm a waffling agnostic. I'm not big on any organized religion, but I dabble in Buddism - I dig their belief system, but find it extremely hard to practice.

As for an afterlife, I would like to believe that energy lives on, in some form which is unknowable to us. I don't fear death - I believe it is the "next big adventure" and I find it so strange that some of my very devout Christian friends seem to fear not just death, but fully living life.

I think that whatever happens after our life is done is unknowable. And I think that I need to live this life as fully as possible - without fear - only asking the universe for strength to endure what needs to be endured, and peace with whatever comes. I try to put good into the universe as my contribution to this life.

Thanks to everyone for sharing without judgment.

NL


Even if you can't control the world around you, you are still the master of your own soul.

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Jrazz
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Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Took the words right outta my brain, Newlease. I'm right there with you.


"Sometimes people are mean, and sometimes things will be hard. One of your jobs is to try and make sure that that never makes you mean and hard, too." Cord Jefferson's Mom

Posts: 18277 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[...]I dabble in Buddism - I dig their belief system, but find it extremely hard to practice.
This is me all day. I would love to be able to be calm and serene and accepting, but I find it a nigh-impossible task to be that...still....of both mind and body, especially while my brain is doing this:
As such, if [I'm] in the middle of some particularly important mental task, and [my] eye should happen to light upon... a doorknob, for instance, it's like someone burst into the room, clad in pink feathers and heralded by trumpets, screaming HEY LOOK EVERYONE, IT'S A DOORKNOB! LOOK AT IT! LOOK! IT OPENS THE DOOR IF YOU TURN IT! ISN'T THAT NEAT? I WONDER HOW THAT ACTUALLY WORKS DO YOU SUPPOSE THERE'S A CAM OR WHAT? MAYBE ITS SOME KIND OF SPRING WINCH AFFAIR ALTHOUGH THAT SEEMS KIND OF UNWORKABLE.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2256 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Razor
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Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I didnt know this was here. Kinda of surprised considering the no religion - no politics rules.

Not sure if Im a literal agnostic or atheist though. Personally my view is that no one knows whats out there. So we may as well believe whatever brings us comfort. As long as our beliefs harm no one else.

Too often I see news about preachers that are busy buggering little boys. Awhile back a preacher got caught in an apartment with a male prostitute and a pile of cocaine. These guys were all preaching one way but acting in the opposite way.

Personally I feel that any thing where people are involved gets corrupted eventually. And I dont care what you worship. Who you are is determined on what you do in life. Not which building you walk into on Sunday.

It just seems that in this world those that do bad things are more often rewarded than those that do good things. So if there were a god then maybe hes behind that. Maybe this god dude is not a nice fellow. Or maybe we have the whole *good* definition completely wrong?

Weve all been betrayed. Humiliated. And abused. WHY did that happen? Was it *gods plan*? WTF! I would guess that far and away most of us are good people. We were faithful. We honored our vows. We have not acted in any overt way that would hurt our spouse or anyone else. So WHY is this *gods plan* for us? Hell. If I werent an atheist before I would be one after this sh!t storm blew into my life.

But some people get comfort from their faith. And I have no problem with that. As I said. As long as you dont hurt anyone else Ive got no problem.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


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Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, Razor, I think that's where the 'support group' thing comes into play. I'm pretty sure people are allowed to mention their religion (or relative lack thereof, for those of us in hurr) we're just not supposed to debate or disparage other people's religion(s). I'm pretty sure that's where the line is; though, if a Mod or Guide is reading this and I have that wrong, feel free to correct me. I prefer to stay on *this side* of the dreaded pirate flag...

But yeah, Razor, regarding your points...I feel much the same concerning people's capacity for atrocious actions, as well as for altruistic ones. When I see an individual's behaviors, I chalk them up to the content of their character, not to whatever set of beliefs they follow or endorse. I don't look at a Christian person, or a Hindu person, or whatever, and chalk up their good (or bad) behaviors to their 'team', so to speak.

That being said, for some people, their religious backgrounds did figure into their upbringing and character formation, and that's fine. Religious upbringing is, to me anyway, like any other FOO topic...we acknowledge the role it played in helping/hurting an individual's decision-making process, while still holding that individual fully accountable for their actions, both good and bad. The individual gets both the credit, as well as the blame.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2256 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Tred
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Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with Ascendent - I've never looked at this place to argue who is right/wrong but as another "I can relate" to how you are feeling because I have sympathetic views. I hope people don't come to this read looking to debate religion or lack thereof, as I doubt that is supporting anyone. I actually don't post most of my thoughts for exactly that reason - I don't want to provoke someone into trying to explain to me why I'm incorrect about my "belief".

I've had this discussion with my doctor, because one of the "techniques" for overcoming trauma is giving it to a higher power. That tip doesn't work for me, and she might as well try to convince me to give over my cares to Odin. So we don't use that technique in my therapy .


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4073 | Registered: Dec 2011
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[...]because one of the "techniques" for overcoming trauma is giving it to a higher power. That tip doesn't work for me[...]
Same here, Tred. I've just learned that when you hear that kind of talk in a clinical setting, it really just means to let go of the illusion of control. It's not always helpful, though, because for some counselors (and books), the 'turn to a higher power' aspect becomes more involved and religion-ey as they go on...which is where they lose me. I had the problem with "Co-Dependent No More".
[...]and she might as well try to convince me to give over my cares to Odin.
Only, and only if, I get a giant fucking hammer and a piece of the tesseract.


I have a competition in me.

Posts: 2256 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Jrazz
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Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

we're just not supposed to debate or disparage other people's religion(s)

^^This. Let's please keep it in mind.

Personally, I think that somebody else's God is just as real as my waffling. I don't have an answer, so how can I tell someone else they're wrong?

[This message edited by Jrazz at 4:08 PM, April 15th (Tuesday)]


"Sometimes people are mean, and sometimes things will be hard. One of your jobs is to try and make sure that that never makes you mean and hard, too." Cord Jefferson's Mom

Posts: 18277 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
catlover50
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Default  Posted: 4:13 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ascendent; I have been trying to work on meditating, but haven't found the space to sit and relax my mind; also have the whirling thoughts, especially now.

I read recently about meditative breath, which they say you can even do when walking or running, which may be more my speed.

My daughter gave me a Buddhist book, which I read, but am not quite ready to completely live in the present; the past has too much shit to work out still.

I do find that I can sometimes concentrate on just the taste of the melon I'm eating or the wine that I'm drinking, and it's amazing how much more rich and full it is. Trying to just be "present", if only for a moment.

edited to correct the person's post I was referencing.

[This message edited by catlover50 at 4:17 PM, April 15th (Tuesday)]



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

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