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Newest Member: confusedwife32 (44902)

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User Topic: Agnostic/Atheist Support Group
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 12:26 AM, July 12th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I prayed like I never prayed before. "If you're out there, please forgive me for not believing. Please save him." When he was gone, it really just solidified it for me. There is no divine intervention, because if god does exist, then it's a god who does not know about events on this planet. Because if he/she/it did know, and was truly omnipotent, then he/she/it wouldn't allow the kind of suffering that goes on in the world.
And for those that say it's all according to some plan, then that plan SUCKS and I don't want any part of a god like that.

Ouch. I've had similar moments, SH. I can't say that I have lost a parent yet, but I do feel every sentiment that you are saying here, and I appreciate your visceral honesty. My heart hurts for you, just reading this.

The thing is, you don't need a god to have a moral compass. That is something that I have had to work through in my head, as a person who has been through some shit, and as a person who has been a cheater, too.

It is okay to be motivated by the greater good to work on yourself, even if the reason for that is nothing more than wanting to be a better person.

I really appreciate you opening up here and talking about it.


Posts: 7004 | Registered: Dec 2010
Newlease
♀ Member
Member # 7767
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have some friends who are going through a bad patch. She thinks he may be having an EA with her niece. Her niece is having marital problems and has admitted to having multiple affairs.

They both (niece and husband) deny anything is going on and the husband has convinced my friend that this is "all in her head." So she has taken the road of going to church, rededicating herself to her spiritual life and her marriage.

I want to support her as best I can. I know that if I say what I think, it will push her away from me. I don't get the whole church thing, but I want to be respectful of her faith.

Any ideas on how I can support her best? This is a couple that is part of a group that we are very close to and see often. I am not supposed to let the husband know that I know what she thinks.

NL


Even if you can't control the world around you, you are still the master of your own soul.

Posts: 7690 | Registered: Aug 2005
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm so sorry for your friend, Newlease.

If church is her rock, I agree that supporting her leaning on that is a positive thing.

Maybe you can find a way to encourage her to use her faith to fortify herself, but not to hide behind it and subsequently rugsweep her gut feelings? I would have a hard time not encouraging her to launch a sting operation...

Can you tell her about SI? People are welcome here even if all their experience is either suspected or peripheral...


I bow to those who keep their hearts open when it is most difficult, those who refuse to keep their armor on any longer than they have to, those who recognize the courage at the heart of vulnerability. - Jeff Brown

Posts: 17283 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
SelfishHusband
♂ Member
Member # 43174
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Different strokes for different folks. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. If this person is your friend, what should it matter that she's going to church or finding god? Just as if you're an atheist/agnostic, what should it matter to her if she finds out you "don't get the whole church thing"?
But, sometimes it does matter, despite our good intentions. I feel like I've lost friendships and friendship opportunities once I've started talking to church-going folk about my lack of faith. It happens. You can't hide who or what you are, but I wouldn't necessarily go around broadcasting it either. If you have a solid friendship, it should remain solid. If your beliefs cause the friendship to not work out, then it wasn't meant to be, in my opinion.

That being said, there must be a reason why she thinks her H is having an EA with her niece. Do they spend a lot of time together? Does she have any evidence of online chatting? There's ways of monitoring them. You've been on SI for a long time so I'm sure you know these ways as well as know about the investigative tips forum.

I love the Dr. Phil quote about not going outside the marriage to solve problems within the marriage. That's why I find this statement troubling: "I am not supposed to let the husband know that I know what she thinks."

Why would you even be discussing their marriage with the H in the first place? (and, why would she think that you would)


Me: FWH (39)
Her: BW (34)
DDay 1: March 2013 (EA/PA that *I* rugswept)
DDay 2: April 2014 (PA with double betrayal. OW was wife's friend)
Married: 13 Years
1 Handsome and Amazing Son (10)
MC and IC for 2.5 months-ish. Currently stopped.

Posts: 293 | Registered: Apr 2014
Newlease
♀ Member
Member # 7767
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I love the Dr. Phil quote about not going outside the marriage to solve problems within the marriage. That's why I find this statement troubling: "I am not supposed to let the husband know that I know what she thinks."

She had a very public breakdown in front of some of our friends when her husband was not around. She nearly passed out from lack of food/sleep/fluids and stress. I helped her and encouraged her to eat, drink, and try to rest. The story came tumbling out of her mouth at that point - but just to me. None of the others knew what was going on. She felt stupid for having a public breakdown and has been convinced by her husband and niece that this is all in her head.

I'm sure she thinks her husband would be mad to know that she shared her fears with me. To be honest, I was already unhappy with the way he treats her on a day-to-day basis. He orders her around, is very gruff with her, and basically acts like a big baby. I'm not convinced he is cheating, but I can see why she would feel that it may be a possibility.

I'm trying really hard not to let my jaded experiences color my view of the situation. After all, it is not MY marriage, it is theirs. I just want to support her the best way I can without alienating her.

NL


Even if you can't control the world around you, you are still the master of your own soul.

Posts: 7690 | Registered: Aug 2005
Newlease
♀ Member
Member # 7767
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He flew her niece in from out of state as a surprise for her birthday. There were lots of texts between the husband & niece. He was attached to his phone and took it to bed with him. Then he wouldn't let her see his phone. He got ANGRY, yelled at her and said she didn't trust him - acted hurt that she would question him.

There were other things that happened after the niece got here that were suspicious, but explained away. Really it could go either way.

I guess I don't like that she's going through her church because it's pretty fundamentalist and all about the husband being the head of the household and the wife deferring to him. I think she already takes too much crap from him and I don't want her to rug sweep this. I HOPE they can use this as a way to a stronger marriage.

I just keep telling her that her husband needs to be involved in any counseling she receives and needs to look at his part in this.

NL


Even if you can't control the world around you, you are still the master of your own soul.

Posts: 7690 | Registered: Aug 2005
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, July 14th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like you're doing the best you can, Newlease. You can't carry her through this, she has to be the one to take initiative.

I bet it's triggery as all heck though. Mergh. (((Nl)))


I bow to those who keep their hearts open when it is most difficult, those who refuse to keep their armor on any longer than they have to, those who recognize the courage at the heart of vulnerability. - Jeff Brown

Posts: 17283 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Newlease
♀ Member
Member # 7767
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Totally triggery for me. And I'm a LONG way out from this - been divorced for 10 years now, but infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving.

NL


Even if you can't control the world around you, you are still the master of your own soul.

Posts: 7690 | Registered: Aug 2005
nowiknow23
♀ Guide
Member # 33226
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((Newlease))))


You can call me NIK

"Sometimes it takes a good fall to know where you really stand."
-Hayley Williams


Posts: 25264 | Registered: Aug 2011
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I prayed like I never prayed before. "If you're out there, please forgive me for not believing. Please save him." When he was gone, it really just solidified it for me. There is no divine intervention, because if god does exist, then it's a god who does not know about events on this planet. Because if he/she/it did know, and was truly omnipotent, then he/she/it wouldn't allow the kind of suffering that goes on in the world.
And for those that say it's all according to some plan, then that plan SUCKS and I don't want any part of a god like that.

This is a dangerous thread for me to reply on. Ive been warned before. So Ill couch what I have to say by stating that the following is what a professor mentioned when I was in University studying sociology.

He said that the arguments about god are pretty simple.

There is evil in the world. This is a fact. Therefore god is either all powerful OR good. because if god were all powerful AND good then evil would not exist.

So he is EITHER one or the other.
If god were all powerful alone he would be willingly allowing evil to exist.
If god were good alone then he would be unable to prevent evil.
In either case is a all powerful but evil god OR a good but powerless god worthy of worship?

Now my personal opinion.

Good and evil are subjective notions. What is evil for one person is often good for another.

Stuff happens. Life is a bitch. Gravity is a myth because being on earth sucks. Our life is defined not by what happens to us. but by how we handle and grow as a result of what happens to us.

I hope none are offended by my personal opinion. If so I apologize.

[This message edited by Razor at 1:23 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That is Epicurus, Razor.

I liked the Diagoras reference from De Natura Deorum -

Diagoras, named the Atheist, once came to Samothrace, and a certain friend said to him "You who think that the gods disregard men's affairs, do you not remark all the votive pictures that prove how many persons have escaped the violence of the storm, and come safe to port, by dint of vows to the gods?" "That is so," replied Diagoras ; "it is because there are nowhere any pictures of those who have been shipwrecked and drowned at sea."

I don't want to get in trouble either but I'm hoping discussing greek philosophers doesn't cross that line.

I keep forgetting which crazy bastard measured the earth with a couple of sticks and noon shadows. I think that was Epicurus too but there were a lot of weird E names.

Sorry, wandering off there.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7444 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:35 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are you saying Epicurus is a quack, SG? He maybe, but his paradox sure made sense to me, even if everything else he said or did is suspect. Diagora's, of course, made an excellent point.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9639 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There were allot of REALLY smart folks back in the classical Greek era.

Its been too many years for me to remember names. I remember the calculation of the diameter of the earth based on the shadow length of sticks. I also read about a guy that did lots of things with steam power and was really close to developing a steam turbine engine.

IMO that period of time is one of the greatest in human history.

ETA.
And how about Zeno's paradox?

[This message edited by Razor at 5:47 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:05 PM, July 15th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Zeno's Paradox makes me think of the Bloater Drive in Bill The Galactic Hero.

At some point the distance between Achilles and the Tortoise will be shorter than the entities themselves, and while the distance traveled can infinitely regress, the actual positions would overlap and render the whole thing moot anyway.

Bloater Drive

The standard ways of circumventing relativity in 1950s and 1960s science fiction were hyperspace, subspace and spacewarp. Harrison's contribution was the "Bloater Drive". This enlarges the gaps between the atoms of the ship until it spans the distance to the destination, whereupon the atoms are moved back together again, reconstituting the ship at its previous size but in the new location. An occasional side-effect is that the occupants see a planet drifting, in miniature, through the hull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloater_Drive#Bloater_Drive

Thanks to Harry Harrison for resolving Zeno's Paradox.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7444 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
justme1264
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Member # 42890
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, July 17th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My stbxw's affair and actions/choices post affair, and my recent brother's holier-than-though "born again" conversion to Christianity only further put massive doubts in the religious God.

I don't know what the hell I believe anymore other than the fact religion is man made, and seems to be man's way of coping with the fact that we have almost zero control in the world around us.

I am in IC, and have been for some time, dealing with the long-term affects of my childhood sexual trauma. I suffered my whole life from suicidal thoughts and more recently my attempt back in May of 2013. I can say honestly I finally got the help I needed. Something I realized was that growing up in a Christian church taught me how to depend on a chrisitan god, that deep down, I felt was not real. It was as if I had put all my ability to cope with events in my life onto something that never existed. And when I grew up, and started realizing this, my world came crashing down. I didn't learn to build better coping skills and a much more realistic and solid foundation to lean on when the shit of life came crashing down.

I made a promise never to allow myself to trust anything or anyone without solid proof. It is just too dangerous to my health.

If there is any sort of God out there, I don't believe he/she/it intends to be a crutch or coping mechanism. Strength and survive-ability comes from within.

I am sick and tired of church and the people who go. Maybe I have become cynical, or maybe I have just grown up and accepted the reality that there is no justice in life other than what we make it to be, good people don't get ahead, and everyone has evil in them.

[This message edited by justme1264 at 2:42 PM, July 17th (Thursday)]


"You will be tried, tested, pushed, betrayed, and hurt. You will feel pain and sorrow. During these moments if you remember but one thing, remember this: Never go to your knees - don't give up." -Justme

Posts: 304 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: justme1264
norabird
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Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, July 21st (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((justme)))


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4142 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
SelfishHusband
♂ Member
Member # 43174
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am sick and tired of church and the people who go.

Yes, everyone has evil in them. Yes, everyone has good in them. I think as we climb this mountain of healing (which, perhaps, is why in art and film we find the gurus always at the top of the mountain? ), it's important to realize that everyone's journey is different and everyone is at a different point in their journey. Some have made a conscious choice to immerse themselves in their religion. For some, ignorance is bliss, and they find comfort in their god or the afterlife.
BW's grandfather died recently and BW's mom posted something about saying hi to grandma and she'll see him again someday on the other side.
Yes, I admit that I rolled my eyes.
Her aunt posts stuff like this all the time:

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/211106301254106102/

Of course, I could go and post some of this:

http://www.pinterest.com/katesome/atheism/

But I've never been one to wear my beliefs, or lack thereof, on my sleeve. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, I just don't want to hear about it. The same way they don't want to hear about mine. But, if I went and posted a lot of "there is no god" crap, I guarantee it would scare a lot of these relatives away.

In a way, I'm jealous of their comfort in their faith. If strength and survivability comes from within, then the challenge is to *not* be sick and tired of what other people are thinking or doing. When they try to force their agenda on you I think is when it becomes a problem.

Consider this article:

http://tinybuddha.com/blog/how-we-judge-others-is-how-we-judge-ourselves/


Me: FWH (39)
Her: BW (34)
DDay 1: March 2013 (EA/PA that *I* rugswept)
DDay 2: April 2014 (PA with double betrayal. OW was wife's friend)
Married: 13 Years
1 Handsome and Amazing Son (10)
MC and IC for 2.5 months-ish. Currently stopped.

Posts: 293 | Registered: Apr 2014
Lola2kids
♀ Member
Member # 32789
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, July 30th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I've never been one to wear my beliefs, or lack thereof, on my sleeve. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, I just don't want to hear about it.

This exactly.
Do people describe which sexual positions they prefer?
Do people openly talk about their preference for boxers over briefs?
Do people debate between regular Oreos or Golden Oreos (which happen to be my favourite and I don't think there should be any other kind.)
I think religion or the lack therof should be a deeply personal thing and not discussed in polite company.
Maybe that is horribly old fashioned in this day and age of the internet.
I keep my opinions on this to myself.
Except in forums like this that have like minded people.

Why can't people just say: "oh I'm so sorry to hear your are having problems."
Instead it becomes: "God has a plan"
Empathy, not platitudes please.


BS: (Me) 47
Kids: twins DD(10)
D-Day April 18, 2011
Him:out Sept. 11, 2011
He moved to Europe June 27, 2014.
"They say that absence makes the heart grow fonder but I am growing more and more fond of his absence"

Posts: 1385 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Ontario, Canada
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