SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm now 2 1/2 years post d-day. I am nearly divorced. Here are my perspectives given 20/20 hindsight.

This applies for the foggy, unremorseful, and cake-eating WS's:

1. Reconciliation is ONLY possible with a WS who is quickly and consistently remorseful.

2. How quickly?

In retrospect, I wish I'd given my foggy WH ONE MONTH and no more. Yes, there are stories on SI of WS's de-fogging months and months later. I read those stories and held out too much hope for my own WS. Some WS's never de-fog. And if they are still gaslighting and justifying over a month later, folks, I'm sorry, but it's not looking hopeful.

3. What do you mean by consistently remorseful?

Some WS's act real sorry in brief spurts. Or they get a dose of de-fogging (usually by an outside source) and promise everything. For a few days. Or sometimes even a week or two.

My hindsight rule of thumb? Before a BS should believe that R is happening, a good solid month of remorse, without lapses of justification and gaslighting, needs to pass. I often leapt at the "opportunity" to R with stbxh on the barest of efforts on his part.

4. I wish I'd not given a damn if I made WS angry.

I ran around after d-day scared of making stbxh angry at me. Scared that he'd leave me. Ya know what? A remorseful WS isn't going to "leave you" just because they caught you snooping at the caller id on the cell phone. But a lying, still-cheating WS surely will bluster and get all up in arms.

5. Define your minimum standards and stick to them sooner rather than later.

Minimum standards? These are the MUST-HAVES for your marriage to continue. YOUR must-haves. Think hard. We BS's will have a lot of wants. Pare away the wants. Get down to the core. If these core issues can't be met, the rest is pie-in-the-sky anyway.

My minimums were: NC with OW; firing coverupper; honesty, especially financial, and MC.

My wants were many, including apologizing to my parents, curtailing "guys' nights" out, getting rid of some loser friends, more intertwined activities, . . . and so on. I found my core by working really hard and honestly, "If he doesn't do XXX am I willing to stay married?" The "wants" would have made my marriage a helluva lot better, but I was truthfully willing to stay with much less.

I needed my "minimum standards" because I twisted in the wind so much. When I finally defined my minimum, well, it was a lot easier to gauge when stbxh was bullshitting.

For example, stbxh offered to move to a new town and "start over." Sounds great, right? But when I said, "yes, but first you have to fire coverupper," he wouldn't do it. He wanted to take me on vacations. "Yes, but come to MC this week." He wouldn't do it. Or the times he wanted to move home. "First send all the bills to our home address and give me your passwords." [The honesty issue]. He wouldn't do it.

6. Never reveal your sources

Listen to me. Never reveal your sources. An unremorseful or foggy WS will lie to the bitter end. They will swear on their children, their parents, on the Bible, etc. Just believe in yourself and your evidence. If you are confronting the WS, don't reveal the way you got your info. If they lie, just keep repeating, "You are lying and I know it."

7. Gather up your army

You are at war for your marriage. Don't namby-pamby around. Depressed? Get anti-depressants sooner than later. Not sleeping? Get sleeping aids sooner than later. Hell, yes, go shopping and update your look (men and women). Get to IC. Vent away here. Out the OP to their spouse, their job, their friends.

8. The strategy

Given the above, I wish I had done the 180 for two months and no more. In month one, I wish I had defined my cores. I wish I had not reasoned, argued, pleaded. I wish I had just done the 180 for that time. Each time I failed, I wish I'd dusted myself off and plugged away at it again.

Then, if WS had not de-fogged or was breaking NC with OP after two months, I wish I had proceeded to . . .

9. NC

No contact for months three and four. I wish I hadn't called him to cry. To hear his voice. To get my fix. To check up on him. I wish I had stuck to e-mail about the kids and finances ONLY. If this didn't de-fog WS, by month four or five, I should have:

10. Finalized divorce preparations, maintaining NC.

By getting finances and paperwork in order. Retained a lawyer.

11. By month six, if the WS was still in the A, still breaking NC, still not remorseful. . . well, it's just my opinion that their actions are screaming volumes. They aren't gonna change.

so

12. File

File for separation or divorce. And let your lawyer play hard and fast. Don't interrupt the process. Don't be scared of making the WS mad. Please, he or she has been cheating on you. I don't know one of us down in separaton and divorce whose WS "did right" by us in the divorce.

Yes, it is possible to R, even after a divorce. Is the divorce making them de-fog? Don't stop the process, but refer them to your core issues. Hell, my stbxh has asked to R with me right up to this day. But you know what? He has NEVER done the four things all at once.

Comments? Fire away.

[This message edited by katherine41 at 4:59 PM, February 3rd (Sunday)]

5. Define your minimum standards and stick to them sooner rather than later.

Excellent katherine, just excellent.

Here, here.

I'm with Katherine. This was my 2nd d-day. And I still waited for change.

Reconciliation is ONLY possible with a WS who is quickly and consistently remorseful.

That is my biggy, too, otherwise it often becomes target practice for the WS, with BS's being the target.

"I wouldn't have had an A if you...."

GREAT post. I can agree with and relate to all of your points, they are all too true.

4. I wish I'd not given a damn if I made WS angry.

Yep - this is one of the things I regret the most. I wish I would have just kicked the asshole out and filed for D.

I wish I hadn't called him to cry. To hear his voice. To get my fix. To check up on him. I wish I had stuck to e-mail about the kids and finances ONLY.

Don't be so hard on yourself. The man you gave your heart to stomped on it. You wouldn't have been human if you didn't cry out to him for answers. You can't be a robot to the man who affect you in everyway. You wore your heart on your sleeve and you should be proud of that.

I call my stupid WH to cry to him because he needs to be INCONVENIENCED by his behavior and how it is affecting me, the mother of his child. I don't give a shit.

Katherine - yes, yes, 12 times yes. Hindsight is 20/20.

We all say you'll know when you're done. Yep... but let's look at it right. If you decide what you'll do, how long you'll do it, what you must see as a result... then lucky you! You have set up the system that will tell you when you're done.

BRAVO, Kat. This is excellent advice.

In the beginning, I committed to myself to do all I could do. I committed to my God to do all I could do. My WH mistook that for me being committed to do anything and everything for as long as there was anything or everything still to do. WRONG!

I had my list and my timeframe. I came up with what all I could do was... It helped to eventually come up with what I could NOT do.

I've gone through my list. I've been patient with the timeframe. We are now in the territory of what I CANNOT do. So? I've done all I can do. I've offered that to myself and I've offered it in prayer to my God. I kept my commitment.

I really think seeing this sooner would have helped me gel together what my lists and timeframes were a lot sooner. Don't lose this post. You'll need to resubmit it often to help others.

[This message edited by cielo at 6:57 PM, April 19th (Thursday)]

Fantastic post. I'm glad you put here in JFO where it's needed the most. Bravo!

devastated07,

You are absolutely right. He deserves to hear you cry. He deserves to be inconvenienced.

The problem is this: The crying in 99% of cases does not make the WS de-fog. The inconvenience should be saved for the divorce/separation.

If the BS's goal is to R, then, unfortunately, deserved or not, it does no good to cry to them when they are foggy.

[This message edited by katherine41 at 7:24 PM, April 19th (Thursday)]

Great post! Thanks for sharing katherine

I agree with you re minimum requirements, they give you the clarity to make wise decisions even in the face of the rollercoaster emotional ride.

After I defined my minimums, I found out I had a time frame too. I didn't consciously set a time frame but as it turns out my heart had one.

Stay strong katherine!

Excellent post! Bravo!

I absolutely agree with every bit of this... ABSOLUTELY

Its so hard when your life is a freakin tornado! But Newbies, please read this over and over! This is great, sound, practical advice.

K41- this is a great post. You are so on target about the 20/20 hindsight- if only...

I hope the newbies read this thread and are able to absorb the wisdom of your words- it may make a difference in the outcome of their situation.

That you are still able to share such wisdom in the face of the challenges you have been presented is a testament to your character.

((((K41))))

Great post katherine!!

There are so many things that I would do over if I had the chance after D-day. You hit on a lot of them.

Absolutely spot-on list, k41.

And it actually made me feel pretty good to see that I did well in coming to some of those conclusions in good order and not too much time. I'm 2 years out, and my No. 1 requirement for R was NC. Nothing else, really, for starters.

I was actually lucky that WS (now XH) didn't promise NC and then lie about it.

Made the whole process clearer. I didn't want to divorce, I wanted to R, but when the WS isn't willing and making a huge, consistent effort, like you say, well... the handwriting was on the ol' wall.

I gave him three months, then saw a lawyer. Filed six weeks later.

Today I am grateful that, no matter how much I wanted to stay with this man, I could see the picture and act on it for my sanity and future.

Great post! Should be kept as a newbie resource, like the 180 list!

As a newbie, I thank you for this posting-even ifI don;t understand it all yet! The advice and help here is invaluable!

Katherine, your advice is dead-on.

Let me add one more thing:

If you don't want to reconcile, you don't have to.

Sometimes we just know. For me, the A was a wake-up call to how crappy our marriage and my life had become. You will hear lots of advice abut waiting a year to make any major decisions. If that's what you feel is right then do it. I felt I did not have another year to waste. And I have no regrets about my decision.

Wonderful post katherine!

I have a lot of the hindsight thoughts myself.

You've given me more food for thought. Thank you.

<<Some WS's never de-fog. And if they are still gaslighting and justifying over a month later, folks, I'm sorry, but it's not looking hopeful.<<

3mths on from DDay#2 and yes h is still gaslighting, justifying and hasn't shown true remorse.

I know I have to make that appointment with the lawyer.

Waiting and putting off what you know in your heart you need to do only makes YOUR life more miserable.

Dday 1 - May 12

Dday 2 - Sept 27

I didn't move until Oct. 21. I only prolonged the inevitable, and NOTHING changed until a decided to ACT.

You think that when you wait, they will somehow come to their senses and "get it"

They don't, folks. They just don't.

Ya know what? A remorseful WS isn't going to "leave you" just because they caught you snooping at the caller id on the cell phone. But a lying, still-cheating WS surely will bluster and get all up in arms.

BRAVO Katherine!!!!

What a fantastic Post!!!