Bob - my translation is as follows: I am a nasty piece of work and you are not. I am jealous of you because you are everything I am not.
She is trying to manipulate your emotions but at least you are now aware of it and can take the appropriate action.
I would like your views folks of the most recent behaviour of my ex.
Yesterday was my dd's tenth birthday so we went ice skating. As we were skating round dd said daddy was here with ow. She looked worried so I said that's fine. I was expecting him but obviously not her!
My heart was in my mouth and I felt sick. I skated round to them with my son and my ex started talking to my son. I thought I am not having this situation controlled by him (obviously he had brought ow as a deliberate poke in the eye to me) and I went up to her and said "hello ow I am itsabattle". Needless to say she did not look at me and the ex made a vague attempt at introducing us whilst looking at me in the eye.
They took the kids for lunch as arranged and I went shopping and came back with lots of bags so it would look like I was rich!! I had tiny items in big bags. I did this whilst crying my way round the shops as I could not belive his heartlessness but I wanted to look as if I didn't care.
When I returned to the kids I said to ow "nice to have met you" and we left. I wanted to show that I have dignity and manners. She still couldn't look me in the eye.
My point is why did he do this? It was my girl's birthday.
This was preceeded by him phoning on new year's eve to let me speak to the kids at twelve then going onto say we are having a great time at the party etc etc. I just turned off the phone.
Do you think he is trying to hurt me with these digs at me? If so, why. He never seems to give up and keeps looking to be foul at every opportunity. Hurtful man.
Relax. Keep reading. Forewarned is forarmed. He is acting text book, by the script fullofbullshit-N. Step back and chill. Breathe. Take a walk. Get a hammer and smash something, like a brick. Get it all out. You need to be cool and calm to fight this basturd (Latin). Are you in IC? Are you on AD? Have you seen the doc lately?
Here's a document elsewhere in the thread. I post it again:
How Personality Disorders Drive Family Court Litigation
I was first exposed to the concept of personality disorders in 1980 when I was in training as a therapist at the San Diego Child Guidance Clinic at Childrens Hospital. The DSM-III had just come out and Axis II of the five diagnostic categories required the therapist to diagnose the presence or absence of a personality disorder. (The current DSM-IV uses the same approach.) I quickly learned (often the hard way) that the presenting problems on Axis I (e.g. depression, substance abuse) were simply replaced by new ones, if an underlying personality disorder was not addressed in therapy.
Now that I have completed five years as a family law attorney, I have frequently witnessed the same underlying issues in hotly contested family court litigation -- yet these remain undiagnosed and, therefore, misunderstood. As those with personality disorders generally view relationships from a rigid and adversarial perspective, it is inevitable that a large number end up in the adversarial process of court. Since more flexible and cost-conscious people nowadays are resolving their divorces in mediation, attorney-assisted negotiation, or just by themselves, those cases remaining in litigation may be increasingly driven by personality disorders.
The Nature of a Personality Disorder
Someone with a personality disorder is usually a person experiencing chronic inner distress (for example fear of abandonment), which causes self-sabotaging behavior (such as seeking others who fear abandonment), which causes significant problems (such as rage at any perceived hint of abandonment) -- in their work lives and/or their personal lives. They may function quite well in one setting, but experience chaos and repeated problems in others. They look no different from anyone else, and often present as very attractive and intelligent people. However, it is usually after you spend some time together -- or observe them in a crisis -- that the underlying distress reaches the surface.
As interpersonal distress, fear of abandonment, and an excessive need for control are predominant symptoms of personality disorders, they place a tremendous burden on a marriage. Therefore, intense conflicts will eventually arise in their marriages and the divorce process will also be a very conflictual process. In contrast to people who are simply distressed from going through a divorce (over 80% are recovering significantly after 2 years), people with personality disorders grew up very distressed. It is the long duration of their dysfunction (since adolescence or early adulthood) which meets the criteria of a personality disorder.
Usually they developed their personality style as a way of coping with childhood abuse, neglect or abandonment, an emotionally lacking household, or simply their biological predisposition. While this personality style may have been an effective adaptation in their "family of origin," in adulthood it is counter-productive. The person remains stuck repeating a narrow range of interpersonal behaviors to attempt to avoid this distress.
A personality disorder does not usually go away except in a corrective on-going relationship -- such as several years in a counseling relationship. Until then, the person may constantly seek a corrective experience through a series of unsatisfying relationships, through their children, or through the court process. In a sense, untreated personality disorders don't fade away -- they just change venue.
Personality Disorders Appearing in Family Court
Probably the most prevalent personality disorder in family court is Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) -- more commonly seen in women. BPD may be characterized by wide mood swings, intense anger even at benign events, idealization (such as of their spouse -- or attorney) followed by devaluation (such as of their spouse -- or attorney).
Also common is Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) -- more often seen in men. There is a great preoccupation with the self to the exclusion of others. This may be the vulnerable type, which can appear similar to BPD, causing distorted perceptions of victimization followed by intense anger (such as in domestic violence or murder, for example the San Diego case of Betty Broderick). Or this can be the invulnerable type, who is detached, believes he is very superior and feels automatically entitled to special treatment.
Histrionic Personality Disorder also appears in family court, and may have similarities to BPD but with less anger and more chaos. Anti-social Personality Disorder includes an extreme disregard for the rules of society and very little empathy. (A large part of the prison population may have Anti-social Personality Disorder.)
Dependent Personality Disorder is common, but usually is preoccupied with helplessness and passivity, and is rarely the aggressor in court -- but often marries a more aggressive spouse, sometimes with a personality disorder.
Cognitive Distortions and False Statement
Because of their history of distress, those with personality disorders perceive the world as a much more threatening place than most people do. Therefore, their perceptions of other people's behavior is often distorted -- and in some cases delusional. Their world view is generally adversarial, so they often see all people as either allies or enemies in it. Their thinking is often dominated by cognitive distortions, such as: all-or-nothing thinking, emotional reasoning, personalization of benign events, minimization of the positive and maximization of the negative. They may form very inaccurate beliefs about the other person, but cling rigidly to those beliefs when they are challenged -- because being challenged is usually perceived as a threat.
People with personality disorders also appear more likely to make false statements. Because of the thought process of a personality disorder, the person experiences interpersonal rejection or confrontation much more deeply than most people. Therefore the person has great difficulty healing and may remain stuck in the denial stage, the depression stage, or the anger stage of grief -- avoiding acceptance by trying to change or control the other person.
Lying may be justified in their eyes -- possibly to bring a reconciliation. (This can be quite convoluted, like the former wife who alleged child sexual abuse so that her ex-husband's new wife would divorce him and he would return to her -- or so she seemed to believe.) Or lying may be justified as a punishment in their eyes. Just as we have seen that an angry spouse may kill the other spouse, it is not surprising that many angry spouses lie under oath. There is rarely any consequence for this, as family court judges often believe the truth cannot be known -- or that both are lying.
Just as an active alcoholic or addict blames others for their substance abuse, those with personality disorders are often preoccupied with other people's behavior while avoiding any examination of their own behavior. Just as a movie projector throws a large image on a screen from a hidden booth, those with personality disorders project their internal conflicts onto their daily interactions -- usually without knowing it. All the world is a stage -- including court.
It is not uncommon in family court declarations for one with a personality disorder to claim the other party has characteristics which are really their own ("he's manipulative and falsely charming" or "she's hiding information and delaying the process"), and do not fit the other party. Spousal abusers claim the other is being abusive. Liars claim the other is lying. (One man who knew he was diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder claimed his wife also had an NPD simply because she liked to shop.)
How Family Court Fits Personality Disorders
Family Court is perfectly suited to the fantasies of someone with a personality disorder: There is an all-powerful person (the judge) who will punish or control the other spouse. The focus of the court process is perceived as fixing blame -- and many with personality disorders are experts at blame. There is a professional ally who will champion their cause (their attorney -- or if no attorney, the judge). A case is properly prepared by gathering statements from allies -- family, friends, and professionals. (Seeking to gain the allegiance of the children is automatic -- they too are seen as either allies or enemies. A simple admonition will not stop this.) Generally, those with personality disorders are highly skilled at -- and invested in -- the adversarial process.
Those with personality disorders often have an intensity that convinces inexperienced professionals -- counselors and attorneys -- that what they say is true. Their charm, desperation, and drive can reach a high level in this very emotional, bonding process with the professional. Yet this intensity is a characteristic of a personality disorder, and is completely independent from the accuracy of their claims.
What Can Be Done
Judges, attorneys, and family court counselors need to be trained in identifying personality disorders and how to treat them. Mostly, a corrective on-going relationship is needed -- preferably with a counselor. However, they usually must be ordered into this because their belief systems include a life-time of denial and avoidance of self-reflection.
Family Code Section 3190 allows the court to order up to one year of counseling for parents, if: "(1) The dispute between the parents or between a parent and the child poses a substantial danger to the best interest of the child. [or] (2)The counseling is in the best interest of the child." Even short-term counseling can help.
Therapists, in addition to being supportive, need to help clients challenge their own thinking: about their own role in the dispute; about the accuracy of their view of the other party; and about their high expectations of the court. Further, therapists should never form clinical opinions or write declarations about parties they haven't interviewed.
Likewise, attorneys need to also challenge their clients' thinking and not accept their declarations at face value. More time should be spent educating them to focus on negotiating solutions, rather than escalating blame. The court should make greater use of sanctions under Family Code Section 271 for parties and attorneys who refuse to negotiate and unnecessarily escalate the conflict and costs of litigation.
The court must realize that the parties are often not equally at fault. One or both parties may have a personality disorder, but that does not necessarily mean both are offenders (violent, manipulative, or lying). A non-offending, dependent spouse may truly need the court's assistance in dealing with the offender. The court should not be neutralized by mutual allegations without looking deeper. Otherwise, because of their personality style, the most offending party is often able to continue their offender behavior -- either by matching the other's true allegations for a neutral outcome, or by being the most skilled at briefly looking good and thereby receiving the court's endorsement.
The court is in a unique position to motivate needed change in personal behavior. In highly contested cases, counseling or consequences should be ordered. Professionals and parties must work together to fully diagnose and treat each person's underlying problems, rather than allowing the parties (and their advocates) to become absorbed in an endless adversarial process. Because their largest issues are internal, they will never be resolved in court.
There is more to read at:
cerise: that is a neutral *opinion.* She can't do anything but formulate one-sided opinions if you're not giving up any information about him. So far, it doesn't mean much. He can throw all of the snowballs he wants to, but when you calmly and clearly present facts, the mediator will have no choice but to listen. Try not to stress about it.
[This message edited by veritas at 2:41 PM, January 3rd (Thursday)]
Remember, it's all about control when it comes to the NPD. It seems as if he has been turning the screws on you trying to get a reaction for some time now. Stay the course and remain UN-baitable. Hopefully he will soon grow tired of this game because he will realize that there is no control when it comes to you.
The best way to react is NOT to react. I think you handled the situation and especially the OW beautifully. The fact that she and your XNPDH could not look you in the eye says it all.
They are so beneath you, you should probably go home and scrape the bottom of your shoes.
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)
I just had some new lights delivered and they don't fit so I have a small fit...from having no control over my life when living with the freak, I now fear I am turning into a control freak who goes mental when something doesn't go my way!!
Thanks again my friends. xxx
I think the reason goes back to how they get off on feeling superior to others. If they can't feel superior, they wish to be feared.
They are just so creepy. I got the shivers but was not at all surprised to hear that he "watched" you and your son skate before he approached you. What a creep. (remind you of anybody?) I don't get this either. Why do they do this? I mean if image is everything, I wouldn't think they would want to be known or thought of as a stalker, lurker, spy, peeping tom, etc.
I'm back to where I started. If they can't be worshipped and adored, they want to be feared.
I do understand the thought that you wonder just how far they would go to get a reaction...as Sad said, even to fear. And that bit about him watching you first made the hair on my arms raise. I wonder if that's part of why OW was unable to look at you. Perhaps she saw him look at you and started experiencing a little jealousy of her own? Shame? Not so easy to look in the face the person who you stabbed in the back, is it? That rotten skank should stew in her own juice along with him. But enough of my caustic rantings...
My point is why did he do this? It was my girl's birthday.
Because, Its, it's a sad fact that they use their own children to try to get at us. You know so well that they don't truly *care* about them, they see them as pawns. Yucky bastards.
And yes, I did get the creeps when he told your son that they had been watching you. You really took control of that situation, and I really admire you for that! I had a flashback the other day when my husband was standing over me screaming about me taking his car key. I was fine -- until he left. Then I just collapsed into a shaking, crying heap. I don't know what I would have done if I had to act gracious toward him and Skanky N.
[This message edited by veritas at 4:02 PM, January 3rd (Thursday)]
Brief Summary: Case worker admitts that Asshole is very upset about my relocation (45 mins away ) has called several times, was in shock that he was contacted at ALL,, . Case Worker also said that the situation with the Bitch PhD who refuses to involved me with Caleb's therapy will be contacted..but case worker does not know if she will get anywhere. ! Case Worker said that it does not matter what previous PCP said or did not say bout the allergy meds, the fact that another doc has instructed the meds to be given DAILY.. Asshole will be told to do so, if he continues not to, just another strike. Case worker also mentioned how Asshole had made quite a name for himself with the schools and that they have expressed great concern regarding his actions.
Case Worker is going to attempt to talk with Bitch PhD to see why my attempts at communication have been ignored as well as talk with new PhD!
Final "Solution".... WAIT FOR IT ..... Case worker is going to recommend that WE attend a "Class" for parents in dispute.
Basically, NATTA... whether or not Asshole will take the class as per Case Workers recommendation is up in the air, but if not another strike. BLAH FLICKITY BLAH BLAH.
On another note..... Since I had to sign a release for new PhD to speak with Case Worker, and New PhD is aware that Bitch Phd is now active in my son's therapy again... I can no longer bring in my son for treatment . This of course is within the best interest of my son and understanding as two Phd's can cause overload and frustration. GREAT.. ONE MORE FREAKING THING HE HAS TAKEN AWAY... My ability to obtain services for my own son.
All of this obvious blattent disregard for the children's well being and Case worker is going to recommend a Parenting Class to help us communicate better.
YOU CANNOT "COMMUNICATE" with an NPD... it is impossible, or in my case it is...
One by one my rights are fading and I keep hearing "You need to get an attorney".. Well the next time the money tree in the back yard yeilds 1000s of dollars I'll be sure to get one.
I called Woman's Resource Center today and talked to an Attorney Advocate, she said that there was NO WAY any attorney would take on my case Probono... YAY more great news.
[This message edited by Dragonfly32 at 4:24 PM, January 3rd (Thursday)]
So you looked HOT?!?!?!?!?! Kewl. (Rrrrrrrrrrrr......... LOL.) Maybe that freaked her out a bit.
It's OK your feelings of frustration over day to day stuff, especially after dealing with the "NPD Freak". It takes time to get regrounded. Eh, it is what it is. In time it'll get funnier and funnier. Keep detaching as you are doing so well at.
Hmmmmmmmmmm... Thank God and the Stars above for these threads. I honestly don't know how we would survive this N-mayhem without each others understanding. Only those that have been N-experienced will ever understand. I loves you man !!!
I don't know how things will go. I have discovered that some people see right through my XH, but some are charmed by him. He has a very high IQ, but he can't keep his story straight.
I have ADHD and he used to get me so confused in conversation. Now I confuse him I use the technique my attorney used in court and in deposition. I jump around to different topics, but then come back to the one I am really interested in finding information about. I can usually get the truth out.
I've discovered that if he starts down a verbal path he has trouble backing out of it. For instance, he has accused me of being a child abuser several times. When asked directly he will say that he believes I am a child abuser. I'm thinking about asking him that tomorrow in front of the mediator and see what he says.
He also told me in our last conversation that he believes me to be a bitch. i wonder if I should ask him about that also. I wonder if I should print off some of the emails where his wife has called me a bitch in big letters. I dont know if they care about stuff like that or not.
Oh geez I am so nervous. It feels like going to court all over again.
Catwoman gave you the advice in D&S to list out items you want to talk about, the non-negotiables, and other such things you want to draw to the attention of the mediator. I agree with her advise. I would further say you should be seen to be writing his answers down to those questions for your own reference as the discussion moves along. This is because, as you stated, you can sometimes get confused by his verbal roundabouts. Use every tool at your disposal. In this case, a list and a pen. Seeing you write things down as he says them can also help to unnerve him, especially as he himself seems to be aware that he tells half-truths or outright lies. He's going to be so busy mentally rehearsing things and thinking about what he's already said that you may very well be able to confuse him into -- oh, how they hate this -- telling the truth and backing down.
As for what you've been through with your daughter, I have only this to say: regardless of her father's accusations and stance on the matter, you need to do what is in her best interest. If that means he is handed custody for the rest of the school year, then so be it. She is old enough to be learning the lessons to be gained in this. Her treatment of you has been abominable, at best, and it's time she learns that this is no longer acceptable. There will be consequences.
Your ex is frightened. I can guarantee you that. All N's are frightened, and so full of self-loathing that they react in angry, crazy ways. There is no reasoning with one when s/he becomes that way. You know this already.
Use it to your advantage. During the mediation, speak in reasonable language, and speak to as many specific points as possible. He will crack. He will get angrier and angrier, and then the real NPD will show through. Regardless of what the mediator has already opined regarding his best interests, he will not be able to sustain that "concerned parent" mask for very long once he is angry.
I don't mean to imply that you go on the attack. Quite the opposite. Remain as neutral as possible, as if you were interviewing a stranger. One technique that seems to be effective is to pretend you are -- YOURSELF -- the mediator and dissociated from his every day life. Ask him a question, then ask for specific information regarding his reply. Switch topics. Go back to the original topic and ask for more specifics. As you said, you can confuse him during this. Do you know why that is? It's because he feels his power slipping through his hands, and it unnerves him.
Don't be surprised if he goes on the attack at some point. An example may be him saying something like, "You want to take the easy way out of parenting." DO NOT REACT. In as neutral, or (if you're an ornery cuss like me) as innocent a manner as possible, ask him why he believes this is so. Point by point, lead him through the reasoning that supposedly drew him to this conclusion. Write those points down. Then address them all at once in a statement, i.e., "By seeking counseling for our daughter, I was attempting to help her deal with her anger and frustration over our divorce. Even with counseling, it became clear to me that she had no desire to live with me. She continued to verbally and, soon physically, attack me. While I had the option of calling for the police to remove her from my home, I decided it was ultimately in her best interest to live with you, where she said she wanted to be. She wasn't with you long before she changed her mind and began to beg me over the phone to return to my home. We have reached a crisis point in her upbringing, and I am now forced to bring the issues into the court system so that we can work together and find a reasonable alternative that she can live with. My wish is not to abandon my parenting duties. My wish is to supply her with whatever help is available so she can come to a decision that is in her, and my, best interests."
Then sit back and watch him turn purple for a while.
Steady on, woman. You are intelligent, warm and caring. You are on the right path to peace. Just a few more struggles, and you'll find yourself so entirely dissociated from him that his hysterics will cease to matter.
My thoughts are with you as you face this tomorrow. Please do let us know how it goes for you. Know that we are all cheering for you, wishing you strength and calm in the face of the meeting.
Warmest hugs for you, dear.
(((Dragon))), I wish I could help you. I remember seeing those posts, too, but I can't find them now. Someone will, I'll bet. Good luck tomorrow.
Focus on what you need and want to have happen. Leave the crap that the wife has emailed etc. alone because all it will do is waste time and confuse the issues.
You want him to pay the money he owes.
Put in place some way to keep him from wiggling out of the bills.
Find a way to allow you to see medical care for her without having him refuse all the time even when it is care the Doctor feels she needs. Same thing for the counceling.
Figure out what can be done about visits, exchanges, and where she will be if she will go live with him. That would likely need planning since it is during the school year and could make things much worse rather than better.
The bully can't handle the calm, cool conversations. Be prepared to deal with everything in a straight forward manner so that you don't have to do this any longer than needed.
We are all behind you and know who hard it is to deal with these crazies.
Go get him Momma Bear.
The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.
A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.
Hope all are well today. Go get'em Cerise. Hope things are better today Dragon.
Dragonfly: Good luck with that. I would not expect too much from the court system because unless you have proof that he's an Unfit Parent, you will have to give some things up. That's the way the courts work. They may know he's a kookus, but their interest is your children.
To both of you: My brother's baby mamma went in front of the mediator and told a bunch of lies, cried a little, painted a sad picture of abandonment and neglect, blah blah. The mediator did not believe it at all, and said it in so many words. HOWEVER, she still ordered child support and joint custody because even though she knew the girl was a kookus (and my brother had the bite mark on his arm to prove it), it wasn't in the best interest of the children for my brother to pay her nothing. She makes so little money that she could never take care of them -- and she should not have to. In order to prove something in a custody case, you have to PROVE that what you want is in the best interest of the children. That should be your focus, not who is right or wrong, or who is a kookus.
Bob: Two nights ago, I dreamed that I almost had a threesome with Jason Alexander before my husband pulled me off of him, then it turned into a Seinfeld episode. Maybe your dream, too, will turn out to be all about nothing.