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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 3
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, March 20th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heh. You've made some great points, Joe.

I find it interesting that my wife and I have the opposite backgrounds as you and your ex. Her family is much more about verbally expressing dissatisfaction, so I got both barrels on a frequent basis for a long time, while only rarely bringing up things that bothered me (which is probably one of the ways she was able to have so many incidents of "minor" infidelity throughout our marriage before the "big" LTA).

I still find it sort of amusing that she got so used to that pattern, when I started giving it back to her, it was more than she could handle and I was "constantly throwing the affair back in her face".

(That's a topic we disagree on frequently. I try to explain that her affair was a watershed experience for me in our relationship, so a great many of my perceptions and reactions stem from that event. It's a lens through which I view things, and the basis for many of the conclusions I draw in order to make decisions. She, on the other hand, has determined that there are no lessons to be learned from it, and it should be treated like an aberration and discounted as a basis from which to draw rational conclusions. When you factor in that she's bipolar, her conclusion makes some sense...but it's also used as a cop out more often than not.)


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
hurts
♂ Member
Member # 9444
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, March 20th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I so appreciate this dialog here. I have such an intimate knowledge of much of it. WAL, I so get where your at. I think the trouble I am having finding that peace is me accepting the present situation in my M. With all that is happening I know I wont leave, even though I think about it.

I would never say that my M is intollerable, and I know my W is trying to do her best. Yet she too lives in the world of refusing to address her many issues. But for the most part, it is an ok existance. It is I who need to change and to find myself.

I really like the thought here that SI sets such a high bar for WW. I know that I have come to expect my W to be in that line, but have to accept that it will not happen.

Oh well.

I am glad to read of your experiences with all of this. I think we share some common experiences.

I know I have not been asked to curb my venom toward the OM, I do tend to defend it and I find it an acceptable outlet to me. She just lets it ride. I know also that every time we do bring up infidelity, she is always sorry and remorseful for her actions. It has taken years, but she no longer responds with anger and I think she gets it better that this has been damaging to us. She tries in her own way to make it better, but nothing akin to what the wonderful ladies we have here are doing. I just don't think she has that in her. I think it takes a lot of courage to address ones fears and big demons.

I can so see her fear of it, I think that may be why I try to understand it and to accept it for her. I know she refuses to use it as an excuse and she accepts as her responsiblity her behavior. When I see her soing that I just tend to think that she can confront herself. But when she has tried it turns her into a crying lump. It has that much control over her. It is sad, but since I know a lot of the story, I know how hard it can be.

Anyway, guys I appresiate this forum, and I appreciate you guys.

Thanks.


Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
--- Charles M. Schulz
SO if I check my pulse, and it is not there, do I get the day off?

Posts: 8381 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: At Home
wifehad5
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Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, March 20th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OM #1 (who was actually #5 ) lived in TX when I found out. At the time, my half crazy, alcoholic, gun totong father was vacationing in Mexico, and would be returning through the OMs hometown.

I also had a friend who was ready to get in the car with me and drive down. Even in the initial turmoil, I was good


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35331 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
TwiceTorn
♂ Member
Member # 13895
Default  Posted: 11:35 PM, March 20th (Friday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This brings a big second point, why are any of us blaming the OM? I personally don't understand the logic. I married one person, that was supposed to have a commitment to me. The OM's she had A's with ate pretty much irrelevent. Should I be mad at the 15+ OM's or should I point a single finger in the air to the one person that was the center of it? Sorry I give a flying fuck to some dude that was willing to get his dick wet compaired to the person that I had an legal contract with. Its pointless to to blame the OM, plain and simple. BH's had only one agreement and that was with our WW's


You've got to trust your instinct
And let go of regret
You've got to bet on yourself now star
'Cause that's your best bet~311 All mixed up


Posts: 3597 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Minnesota
thyme2go
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Member # 12908
Default  Posted: 1:59 AM, March 21st (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TT -- I do not even know who the OM are in my situation. I do not blame them one iota.

-t2g


BH - no longer 48
3 DD's - (27, 24 and 17)
Divorced on 8/6/09

Posts: 9144 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: Eastern Washington
wifehad5
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Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, March 21st (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know that I ever blamed them. Wanting to hurt them is not the same as blaming.

Part of that for me is thinking they need a lesson. If I were to meet a woman that complained about her life, M, H, whatever, I'd tell her to talk to her H about it and move on. I wouldn't use it as an opportunity to get into her pants. Not that I'm perfect in any way, but that just strikes me as wrong.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35331 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, March 21st (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The only xOM I blame for anything is my wife's LTA xOM...and only because he happened to have been my best friend for 20 years. Twenty years of friendship gives you a few obligations.

The other guys my wife fucked during our marriage? I hardly even think about them. Most of them don't know me, or didn't know me very well.

And like wh5 said, that doesn't mean that I don't wish them ill or think they need a good lesson taught to them, but I don't take their actions personally. They were behaving disrespectfually toward some anonymous role of "husband" they don't know...kind of the same way I disrespect Keith Urban when I go on and on about how hot Nicole Kidman is.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
hurts
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Member # 9444
Default  Posted: 12:08 AM, March 22nd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think I blame the OM's. I know the PA OM is out of the pic, shows its ugly head with a trigger every now and again. But I place the blame there with my W, and for the most part I am past that.

What I struggle with tis the EA OM. He is a serial cheater, Just married one of his OW. I surly do not like the guy. And I make no bones about that at all. He is still in the picture a bit because he is W boss now. And for what ever reason W seems to need to impress him or whatever. Not really sure what it is. This is a point IC goes into when I am clicking off on it. I truely believe it is nothing consious on her part, but it leaves a huge door open on my wounds. Thus no healing.

But I don't have a lot of ill will for the OM's, they generally constitute a portion of the population I have seen many times, That would be the egotistical narsististic, can't keep my dick in my pants asshole part of it.


Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
--- Charles M. Schulz
SO if I check my pulse, and it is not there, do I get the day off?

Posts: 8381 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: At Home
glasvegas
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Member # 22639
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, March 22nd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey guys,

I'm about 2.5 months out from d-day. We're in R, and she has done quite a bit to show she is remorseful and wants to make things work.

Right now I am worried about 2 things, and I would love some feedback:

1. I hear that almost universally, somewhere around 4-6 months guys hit a stage of intense Rage - worse than right after d-day. Is this true? Any advice on handling it? Any ideas on what causes it?

2. Any sexual activity causes me to have mind movies about her and the OM. Not only sex with her, but even masturbation. Anyone else have this problem? Does it only get better with time? It is to the point now where it is not all that is going through my head, but it goes through my head at least once or twice, sometimes more. Several times it has caused issues with reaching climax. A few times it ruins post-coital bliss and snuggling.

Thoughts? Commiseration?


Posts: 321 | Registered: Jan 2009
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, March 22nd (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1. I hear that almost universally, somewhere around 4-6 months guys hit a stage of intense Rage - worse than right after d-day. Is this true? Any advice on handling it? Any ideas on what causes it?

My guess is that about the six month mark, you've started coming to terms with reality of the A, but you're no longer worried daily about your wife leaving for the OM. You get comfortable and start to feel a bit safer in the marriage. Things have started to get back to normal in many ways. Feeling safe allows you to access and express all the anger and resentment that you couldn't express when you worried that saying the "wrong thing" might drive your wife away.

And there's also a good deal of anger that comes with things just going back to normal. Your life has been dramatically changed, and the idea that the person who did this to you is ready to go back to the normal life and normal marriage is bound to piss you off. It's like after a few months of playing at remorse and regret, they're ready to move on (and in a bunch of stupid cases, this is about the point where WS's start doing things like accusing their BS of wallowing or not letting go or otherwise being emotionally weak because they can't put it all behind them).

I think a big part of the anger phase is just the manifestation of the sentiment that "You (WS) don't deserve to have a normal life until I have one again."

And I think that's perfectly valid.

2. Any sexual activity causes me to have mind movies about her and the OM. Not only sex with her, but even masturbation. Anyone else have this problem? Does it only get better with time? It is to the point now where it is not all that is going through my head, but it goes through my head at least once or twice, sometimes more. Several times it has caused issues with reaching climax. A few times it ruins post-coital bliss and snuggling.

I got through it by imagining my wife was Nicole Kidman. YMMV.

The truth is that you're looking for the sacredness in your sexual expression that you had before the A. The problem is that the sacred bits of your marriage have now become mundane because they've been shared with the world outside your marriage.

While the mind movies go away the more you work at having sex, I still have no evidence that the sacredness comes back. In 2.5 years, I still haven't had sex with my wife and not had one of her extra-marital partners pop into my head with a fleeting "I bet she did this with him" thought.

My solution to that has been to stop thinking of it as sex with "my wife", but sex with a friend-with-benefits. If I stop expecting it to be sacred, then I don't miss it when the sacredness isn't there.

Think of it as managing your expectations. When you start dating a woman and get sexual, you don't let the thought of all her former partners stop you from enjoying the experience. You just live in the moment. If you stop expecting sex with your wife to be something special shared between just the two of you, then you can just enjoy the moment rather than giving it some larger meaning.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 10:42 AM, March 22nd (Sunday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Funny, maybe I am as fucked up as I think I am, but I have more of a problem with ONS guy, then the one she went to live with for a year and a half. That is fucked up, huh?


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
shyguy
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Member # 18281
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hate the OM. I know I should not. It makes no sense. He does not care about me. I do not hate my ex. She does care about me I think.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here's some of my illogical, logic; If a guy breaks into my barn, and steals my favorite horse, I will beat him to a pulp if and when I find him. Just because the horse went willingly(he'd follow anyone with a carrot), doesn't mean I won't beat the man for leading him away. In the eyes of the law, he is still a thief, whether he forced the horse with a whip, or the horse took the bait.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
JoePike
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Member # 13207
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL wrote:
I find it interesting that my wife and I have the opposite backgrounds as you and your ex. Her family is much more about verbally expressing dissatisfaction, so I got both barrels on a frequent basis for a long time, while only rarely bringing up things that bothered me (which is probably one of the ways she was able to have so many incidents of "minor" infidelity throughout our marriage before the "big" LTA).

That's the interesting part of SI. Whilst many aspects of infidelity are the same, some clearly differ.

In my case, I suspect the life situation we were in; post-grad studies plus full time work and increasingly failing communication stopped me from approaching my xW when I started down the slippery slope. I've worked hard on my failings, especially communication since d-day. It's an ongoing process though.

This brings a big second point, why are any of us blaming the OM?

Initially, yes I did. Mind you, not more than I blamed xW, but I didn't consider him blameless. Remember he asked my then fiancee why she was marrying me, as they had started the PA then. But when she did, he happily continued the A.

Now, he's hardly a speck on my radar. Sure, if I ever bump into him I'll probably give him a quick hook - but just one. In the same vein I'd "happily" take one from my AP's BH.

Glasvegas, welcome. The rage does indeed come. Mine built up with time, but I let it completely overtake me. I wrote a post about it:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=275758

Allow your anger to come out, but stay in control of it, don't let it control you.


"Do or do not. There is no Try" - Yoda.

"The term “mistake” infers a level of ignorance, innocence and naivety. And a lack of intent and planning." - Craig Harper


Posts: 3952 | Registered: Jan 2007
changedbypain
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Member # 19646
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is a discussion which I think is very worthwhile in the healing process.

Nearly 2 years after my wife's most recent affair and 10 years after her first, during all of which I struggled to heal, I have found that my healing lies in (truly) accepting that my wife is not the person I believed her to be.

Think of the agony we have endured when we ask "How could she do this to me?", and when we picture her having sex with another man. The only way I have been able to overcome that is to come to understand that, while that was certainly her physically, the emotional and mental part of that person was a stranger to me.

And I don't mean that the person I thought she was was somehow on temporary leave. The fact is that the person I was deceived into believing in didn't in fact at exist at all - she was a skilfully created fiction generated by my wife's desperate need not to be alone.

And the real, flawed, undeveloped person that was willing to pursue another married man for some ridiculous and false validation, was not in fact worth having or trying for. When I think now of the details of the affairs, anger has been replaced with pity, and pain has given way to indifference.

The agonizing and constant question "How could she do this to me?" has been answered with the reality that "The person I thought she was couldn't have. The person she actually is, which she concealed from me, could do it quite easily because she has the emotional maturity of a child."

From this follows the reality that I no longer have to be bound by her judgments of me, or her past failures to treat me fairly, just as I would not place any weight on my young child's attitude towards me.

And getting to this stage has also removed the power that I had given to my wife's immaturity and selfishness, with the fortunate result that she has chosen to fill the void with real growth and adult behaviour (which has been the only way our marriage could finally succeed).

As for the other man, I do not see where the fact that my wife betrayed me leads to the conclusion that he is blameless. But I know that he also deserves my pity and not my energy.


Changedbypain

Posts: 64 | Registered: May 2008
shyguy
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Member # 18281
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I like the analogy Jimi40.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
TwiceTorn
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Member # 13895
Default  Posted: 7:02 PM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Very well put Changed! Thats exactly it...

My XWW was not a horse in the barn, and would never treat her as such nor anyone else. She made her own actions, she went out to make sure the allure was there. That was her deal not mine, I don't own anyone.

The choices she made, how she defended them, made it perfectally clear where and want she wanted. My XWW went into lying from the start, that she wasn't married. It was all about getting attention to fill a void in herself. Nothing I mean nothing I could have changed the course of her pursuit of getting that attention. I cannot protect someone from their ownselves, and the choices they make. How many of our WW's said before they cheated hey Im not happy here, Im going to cheat soon?


You've got to trust your instinct
And let go of regret
You've got to bet on yourself now star
'Cause that's your best bet~311 All mixed up


Posts: 3597 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Minnesota
cani4give
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Member # 19601
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, March 23rd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

changedbypain, that was an excellent message. You should post here more often! Man, you hit so many points right on the head.

[This message edited by cani4give at 10:31 PM, July 6th (Monday)]


BH: Me
FWW: Her
2 amazing children

Posts: 615 | Registered: May 2008
Brokken
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Member # 22373
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, March 24th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Guys...

Just finished reading through a number of these posts. Found a lot to relate to here.

Wondering if there is a specific thread for "madhatters" in here or elsewhere on SI?

I am one myself (most recently the BS) and don't really feel at home anywhere on SI right now.

Suggestions?


Together 6 years...
Married 08/08/08
D-Day #1 - 01/01/09
D-Day #2 - 03/10/09
Divorced - 10/16/09

"Don't make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option..."


Posts: 164 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: SLC, UT - USA
Jimi40
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Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, March 24th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Brokken, as a betrayed husband, you are more then welcome here. As for the madhatters.....They are everywhere.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
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