I wish there was "something" that I could ask for that would make me feel better.But I honestly cant think of a thing.
That they think they’ll never be found out and so no harm’s done
FNF - Don't even get me started with your H's comment, "Men do this". Of course he and other men feel this way because the permissiveness in society for MEN doing this is all over the fucking place! I have to admit before Dday there was a part of me that bought into this as well (of course when I had the luxury of not having it touch, well destroy, me personally). It's everywhere! We joke about it, men taunt and challenge one another with it, TV shows romanticize it and it's considered an unspoken badge of honor in many male circles. I have really put my antennae up for this in the past year and I'm sickened by what I see. And then we also romaticize it for women too. Good God, look at Bridges of Madison County! And when was the last time you saw a "must see" movie, aside from the bunny boiler in Fatal Attraction, that spoke the truth about the devastation and fallout of EMAs? Fatal Attraction didn't even do it justice although it may have had a few idiots tuck their dick back in their pants after seeing it. Anyhow, men DO do this FNF because there is a pervasive and ever present permission and kind of admiration for men in our society who do this IMO. Except if he's our president of course. Then all the cocksmen become priests while they condemn him in a voice of self righteousness. The whole fucking thing makes me sick. (Hmmmm, think you hit a nerve on this one FNF?) If you ever doubt this, look at how ALL people, especially men, react to a woman having an A. There is most certainly a double standard. I'm not a huge bang the drum feminist, even though I sound like one right now, but I've been in the trenches of business for over 20 years, playing with the big boys, and I can tell you chauvinism and racism is alive and well here in the good old U.S.A. In Europe the permissiveness for EMAs is even more astounding! I am sickened that there isn't much out there that tells the truth about the devastation of betrayal when we have a 50% plus divorce rate in this country. So many who divorce never disclose it was due to an EMA either, so even that doesn't get seen. There is a helluva a lot more info about the bravado and romance in EMAs around than there is about the devastation. So why wouldn't WS's and OP be seduced into thinking it was OK and permitted? How many of our H's said, "I didn't think you'd ever find out/hurt/know about it." Of course they didn't because they've never SEEN that!!! They never saw Hilary Clinton (please put your feelings aside about her for a sec if you don't like her) splayed out on the closet floor (sorry Run) or walking around like a Zombie or Chelsea dying for her parents and her self and the life/family she knew that was no longer. How about Charles Kuralt's wife of several decades and his kids portraying the devastation of finding out about his LTA upon his death? No, we didn't see that either. No one shows "the ugly" of this and it really pisses me off when you look at the divorce rate and the fallout to the kids, grandkids, etc. of this! Why isn't there more outcry? One guess - because so many are doing it!!!!! OK, stepping off of the soapbox now.
Yep..heard that one too.
OTC, I LOVE reading.Its the one thing that got me through childhood and adulthood (so far!).I almost always have a book nearby. After dday, I just couldnt read anymore,but I am so glad that that changed some months back.Now I am back with a vengeance.
However what has changed is that now I cant handle any deep emotional stuff. I read only thrillers, where a couple of people are killed and their murders solved by the end of the book.Nothing deep or emotional anymore thank you. I also dont get recipe books anymore.I would always get some at the library, or add to my own collection...but now I just dont care.
Talking of which, I have invited my family over for dinner this Saterday. I know they feel a little awkward around us when we are together.Its like we all know that the elephant is in the lounge, but if we just tiptoe or ignore it, it wont trouble us kind of mentality.
So before, I would love to try out new recipes, and mull over getting the right dessert to go with the main.
Isnt it strange (and freeing I guess)that I dont feel that way anymore.I will only prepare my tried and tested dishes.And even then I wont go over board.
I think I am trying not to impress anyone. I think before I tried too hard and just killed myself.(and stressed the kids and H too).I dont have to try to be perfect.I never will be.
The thing is though, maybe we don't see the pain and true fallout in the media, but everyone of us sees it every day (even before our d-days) in the lives of friends, family and co-workers
Thats it.Thats why its hard to swallow the "nobody would get hurt" excuse.
Our H's knew. But they did it anyway.
Sometimes I think its because of H's sense of self-entitlement. What he wants, he gets...and screw the cost.Whether its the car, the PC, or a woman.
And I think that was why it was so hard for him to give up on OW#1.He just couldnt understand why she wouldnt sleep with him.In his heart, he knew she was stringing him along,but that was just what kept him coming back.He wanted her, so he would have her...even if it took 14 years!
That they think they’ll never be found out and so no harm’s done.
I can't comprehend this line of thinking at all. Even if, and that's a huge IF, no one found out, they were prepared to live with that knowledge and go to their graves with it. I don't understand how someone can do this. The guilt and shame would eat me alive.
[This message edited by Steelergal at 12:12 PM, November 27th (Tuesday)]
I am blessed with regards to h being home all the time since he is self employed and he can take me with him if he gets called away.
This morning he told me he wanted to purchase a new headstone for my parents. I was totally stuned to say the least. He said when I visit them, he doesn't want me to remember what he was doing during that time. He doesn't want me to experience anymore sadness.
He anwered all my questions without hesitation. He didn't have to stop to think of the answer (and I know ya'll know that look).
He did tell me what lead him to this. He had a lot of baggage when I met him and I just ignored it (xw). She was a serial cheater, drug user and all around skank.
He has the "KISA" mentality - he just knew his love and care could 'fix' her (lol, that's exactly what I thought that my love would do for him), but in reality, love doesn't fix anyone, they have to do the emotional work themselves to be whole again.
I am fortunate that he quit on his own, I believe if I would have caught him redhanded (I should have been checking cell bills) I would have walked away. I know where my heart was during that time and I even told him I was tired of being his doormat.
I feel great, I have grieved so much for the fairytale I tried so despertly to hold onto for so long. It is a relief to know I can trust my own judgment, I was right all along.
He told me he started to disengage due to the amount of travel he was doing. I can fully understand compartmentalizing, it is the only way to survive sometimes.
Anyway, he is doing back flips to show me he is here for good, mind, body and spirit. He even went around the house yesterday and gathered up all his "memento's" for his time with her - even getting rid of pictures of his old navy budies b/c she was in them. he said, that was a time when he didn't have me in his life and he doesn't need to remember anything about that time. He wants all his memories to be of him and I and the children.
If he keeps up, I'll be even better than I was before!
Thanks for the inspirational messages. I, too, am (or used to be) a 'bookworm'. These days I just can't get absorbed in a book like I used to. I've lost my quiet refuge. I can't recall when I last felt peaceful and it really hurts as we enter the season of peace and hope.
Christmas is all around us! (I know that other religions and philosophies have special days coming too but I'm not knowledgeable about those and they aren't as commercially advertised) and I am just going through the motions.
I also want something from the heart this year but how do I communicate this to my H? Why should I even have to?
This thread of 'I didn't think anyone would get hurt' has me reeling. He did it... for years... how could he not be aware of the far-reaching consequences of his 'escape'? While we are in R and things are going pretty well I can't help feeling that it's just superficial. As long as we don't mention IT, all is fine. He still 'doesn't know, 'can't remember or give me a timeline' yet I know the date he created the online email account and MSN gaming were installed on our home PC. I know when the secret account was opened. But I want him to acknowledge these things and figure out how/why he gave himself permission to go outside our marriage. I'm still waiting for the letter he promised since he can't seem to say the words - doesnt' know where to start!!! Right now affection just isn't doing it for me. I don't know what it is that will but I do know that it's definitely MORE than what I am getting. I know we can't go back but I'm not sure that we are going forward either. How can he 'get over it' so easily when I am still reeling with so much pain of betrayal almost 10 months later? I still trigger every time he goes out of town (did I mention he's gone today - p.m. and evg meetings that will keep him there overnight) even though I've seen no evidence of calls or IMs on his cell phone... every time he's a little late coming home... TV shows... Will it never end?
OK, enuf rant!
because there is a pervasive and ever present permission and kind of admiration for men in our society who do this IMO.
OTC - You've touched on something that has been eating at my craw for a long time about this.
I am convinced that on some level (although I'm sure he's buried it now) my H truly was proud of his "accomplishment" and if I was no longer in the picture, I'm sure he'd have found some way to "leak" information about his "prowess". And the fact that he was clever enough to pull it off without me ever knowing anything was going on. Warped, but I'd bet a month's pay on it.
I also want something from the heart this year but how do I communicate this to my H? Why should I even have to?
You have to because men are idiots. There might be a pearl out there among the swine, but generally, they're clueless.
I put down these words on his Christmas list DDay year "I want something from your heart". Gave him no further input. And I got a lovely diamond/gold heart necklace.
but last year I got a vacuum cleaner.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
So, what can I do when I can’t get it all out of my head? Those things he said and did are with me every single day. She is there every single day. When he blurted out “I’ve had and affair”and to my question of how long, said four and a half years, I was completely gob-smacked and then he said “but I’ve been trying to finish it for two” as if that somehow made it okay. That I’d find an affair for two and a half years somehow acceptable but four and a half not? (Turned out it was five years, so why’d he say four and a half?) He loved this woman. She was his first love and he had been engaged to her. They were a couple for four years first time around. Then in Sept 2001, he saw her name on that Friendsreunited website and he went after her, he actively pursued her. Four weeks later, he had sex with her. And then he writes ME a love letter which at the time I think is really sweet, and writes poetry about HER, which of course I didn’t see until I went searching. It’s the fact that
1) she was his first love
2) that it went on for so long
3) there’s all that poetry about her
4) he’d asked her to marry him
5) he told her he’d waited 25yrs for her to come back into his life
6) I can’t see that it’s finished between them. At least not for her. She’ll wait for him forever.
Was he just living out an alternative life? Sliding Doors style? He’d tried going back to see if they could make up for lost time and rejoin on that path of destiny? He says not. “Unrewindable” he says. He also referred to his A as a “Pandora’s Box”. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t want it, does it? Why am I still with a man who betrayed me in the worst way possible? It wasn’t just sex, it was a full on romantic affair. He keeps saying “stay with me” (mentally and emotionally) but my response is always the same - that he wasn’t “with” me for five years. I hate feeling second best, I hate knowing he never had those intense, intoxicating feelings for me, and I wonder if my marriage has been a lie. so how do I deal with it?
And just one more thing. Reading. I’m the same. Can’t get into any books because I can’t concentrate, but I read The Kite Runner before the A and I couldn’t put it down. But one of the worst things he did to me was to take away a small pleasure that was mine alone (apart from life itself), playing my beloved piano. He can’t read music. I couldn’t play for at least six months. Maybe more. It took a couple of months before I realised I wasn’t playing and it’s odd, but it really upset me and I’m not even particularly good!!
My H is a concrete kind of guy. Someone probably told him to buy me the heart. What is sad, is that he gave me that same heart the year his affairs ended. It was the first jewelry he had bought me in 15 years and I was so touched. Then he goes out and buys the same thing all over again forgetting he gave it to me like 3 years prior.
Doesn't matter, all the jewelry is tainted anyway. The nicest pieces I own were all "guilt" jewlery.
Face it, there is NOTHING they can do to make up for this. Nothing. They can only live their life honestly and transparently and with gratitude and humility.
If he doesn't get to that day soon, he's going to add lonely to that list.
OTC – I read The Kite Runner right after it first came out and loved it. However, your quote was so meaningful in the context of the pain of the A. Thank you for sharing it with us. Oddly, I read A Thousand Splendid Suns over the Thanksgiving weekend and enjoyed it immensely. I realize that women have struggled with suppression and abuse in one form or another since the beginning of time. I, too, hate the fact that affairs by men are glorified in our culture. However, women who screw around are “sluts”. I told my husband this past week that he was a slut in the worst possible meaning of the word. He needs to recognize that he wasn’t “a great lover” or someone’s AP – he was a slut. It is up to him whether he wants to continue to be a slut but I am not going to be married to one.
Odd question around Xmas. I wasn’t actually planning on buying my H anything! Fuck him – his gift will be allowed in the house to see the joy of the children and I think that is enough. No present from me and, certainly, no presents from Santa. I know our youngest will ask why Daddy doesn’t have any presents from Santa and the answer is “because Daddy was a bad boy”. Am I nuts? Do I have to fake Xmas for the kids too? I don’t want to scare them with the “daddy was a bad boy” response but it is the truth!
Yep! Same thing here although it has a darker side. I have REALLY pushed my H on this as has the MC. What he says is that as soon as he started to consider the consequences of being found out, it was too ugly and he would immediately shut it out, stop thinking about it because it was too much. So he KNEW that the consequences of being found out would be horrible and he chose to box it up and put it away rather than confront it and stop his actions. That really makes me wanna …
Aren’t we all here b/c our WS’s did not expect to be found out? (And caretoomuch, I think that applies to WW too - sorry, started this ramble before I saw your post) I told WH that he had the perfect affair – nothing to do with our town/social life/his work/family and far enough away to not “drop by”, but her being just off the motorway, perfect geographically. She just wanted more and thought she was entitled, her having had him first. There were lots of hotels nearby for his business stay-aways. Did she know she was filed under “entertainment”?
We were supposed to have had the “perfect marriage”, I guess that’s why my H has been best man on four occasions and I have been held up as perfect W&M. My BIL’s wife refers to me as “Mrs Goody-Two-Shoes” – bitch. (I happen to think I AM a great mum, and my kids think so too, good job they don’t know about this, else he’d be toast!) He’s your original Mr NiceGuy. Even I thought he was, how sad is that?!!!
So, what’s left when the fidelity, trust, honesty and respect have gone? Is love enough, and how do I know he loves me anyway?
OTC and FNF, thanks for the rants--about everything. I agree with it all--
Reading--I started out as someone here did, not being able to read anything but mysteries or thrillers, or non-fiction about climbing mountains or Arctic exploration. Which I enjoyed, but I did see a dip in my concentration and my ability to get into the deeper, more emotional or profound writing--had that going on in my day to day life too much to want to read about it in someone else's. It's better now, I've gone to my book clubs now having finished the books--that's an improvement.
About gifts, now that I've thought about it, I saw the gifts I received at holidays or birthdays become less personal the longer the infidelity went on. H has never been great at grand gift gestures, but he was better at personalizing them--and he's regained that a bit since d-day. And they're probably still somewhat guilt-gifts, along with regular spouse gifts, but I'll take them--at least he puts some thought into them now again.
Our guest of 10 days left, and we leave in 3 days for Europe for the OC visit. Still waiting for the reply about logistics from OW--as I said before, she's stirring her witch's pot--we'll see what she comes up with.
I've come to a place of more acceptance and resignation to my life now--and we are both trying to figure out how to rebuild with all the issues that still come up, but I think IC is helping us both. I'm calmer and thinking more of myself now, talk to H with my feelings, demands, etc. more than I did before, and see that he is trying to do the same despite his overall feeling of hopelessness about what he did. It's a slog, but the day to day is pretty okay, somewhat the M I'd always envisioned after 30 years of marriage but more open is some ways since this mess has forced us to try harder than we probably would have otherwise.
Still hate it.
I'll be thinking of you.
Sorry, I just can't seem to catch up with all of the posts. Please know that I hold all of you in my heart, though.
We received judgement from the Court this afternoon.
We won almost everything we went after. Still have a ways to go to prove that she is making at least ten times what she claims, but this is a huge start. The HO cannot make H pay for private preschool - a huge thing, considering that was going to cost $10,000. Nor can she ask for any back money for "daycare" unless she provides cancelled checks and contracts from the daycare provider.
As far as the ID theft, mail fraud and breach of security at H's company - don't know if I shared that info yet - well, we are working on turning all of that in to the proper authorities.
H & I tried really hard to make the holiday nice for our family. And it worked. We've decorated our home for the next holiday, made our plans to get a tree and are attempting to focus on moving forward.
I still have moments - every day - when I feel so very sad. And I have decided to let them be.
I think I need to mourn the loss of what I thought our family was. Doesn't mean I want to wallow in it. Just means I feel the need to give myself permission to feel how I feel.
Which, for a born and raised Southern girl from a generation of women who "took" it all on their shoulders no matter what and smiled while doing it, is pretty damn good.
I miss you my friends. Sending big cyber hugs to all.
think I need to mourn the loss of what I thought our family was. Doesn't mean I want to wallow in it. Just means I feel the need to give myself permission to feel how I feel.
I know what you mean--and it's a process that will continue for the rest of our lives, I think. Again, not wallowing in it, but a fact that becomes the fabric of ourselves, our histories, our lives. Sucks, but the alternative is worse I think--(which is a big improvement for my thinking--the idea of being dead and away from all this pain didn't sound so bad to me , and fairly recently!).
Just got home from book club where we read Middlesex--a huge family saga with all kinds of people and situations, but no infidelity!! And a great story with terrific writing. And I finished it!!
And there is more to come. Go get her on that criminal behavior.
You are a hell of a fighter, SVS, and you've won a huge battle. I hope you take a little bit of time to celebrate your victory and to recognize what an incredible woman you are. It's certainly clear to all of us.