I do not know what I would have done if I had not found this place
Me too Shirley. Me too.
Then I would have spent the next 5 years being bitter and angry and denegrating him to everyone I knew. I would never have had the chance to understand this, see the changes he was willing to make, feel loved by him again (and I do sometimes).
I would never have sought counseling for myself. I would have been depressed, drinking, probably ate my way right back up to my heaviest weight and beyond. Or I would have been dead. I seriously contemplated several ways to do myself in.
I would not have met all of you and some others. I would have missed this support.
I would have destroyed the lives of two wonderful children. At least I can say I didn't hurt them.
I didn't come here until 2 months after Dday. My first posts were to the WS here... the why? why? why? They gave me whys. They put together the monosyllabic answers I was getting from H and wove them into a real possible answer to the why.
If I had not found this place I would have lost hope, faith in all humanity and a future.
I owe this place my life.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
If I had not found this place I would have lost hope, faith in all humanity and a future.
I owe this place my life.
I agree, do not pressure yourself to make any decisions on D or R. In the beginning, I wanted R. After awhile and for a long long time, I was so disgusted with fwh that I wanted him dead or I wanted a D but I stayed for many reasons. I stayed b/c I was too messed upped to make any move. I believed in my family. I kenw that I would be in a better position to help my grown kids if I stayed and b/c some days were almost normal with my h. Now, 3 plus years later, I stay b/c h has done the work and has made some fundamental changes in how he views honesty and truthfulness and family and marriage. H is affectionate and fun to be with and my intact family is very important to me. Now that he is not in a possesed state, he is easier to be with. It takes time, too much time but that is how it is. It takes time to see if a spouse can really change. In my experience, they don't change overnight. It is a process. I expected him to change but I knew that there would be steps backwards but as long as he did not maintain any contact with the whorebitch and as long as he kept himself from a never ending fall, I had patience. He used to see the fmow as a sweet person who was unhappy with an unemotive h. He now sees who he and she were and who she still is. I still have moments but for the most part I am happy. I am happy that we have a great future together.
If my h had remained who he was but did not have any more affairs, I might have settled for that for the sake of family. I am fortunate that h really did change. It was hard for him to acknowledge how awful and selfish he was. He, though, was willing to take a really good look and did not like who he had become. Thank God and thank h that he did his work and changed.
Again, do not pressure yourself to make any decisions now or in the near future. Decide what he needs to do and see if he makes progress. Then the hard work comes for you. Can you forgive?
Weepy, you sound SO good and SO strong.
Lost, like the others, I wouldn't send the letters. I DO understand your reasons for it though and I respect those reasons. I still often think about sending a letter to my own personal skank that invaded our lives, because just like you, I want the last word, the last f*ck you, and the feeling that I least I didn't take it lying down. I have been talked down from that tree many times!! One thing that resonates with me was written by an OW in an other place. She just assumed that her MM and wife just went back to life as usual after d-day because they were married and making a go of it. NO CLUE of what really follows in the aftermath of D-DAY.
I realized that no one can understand d-day other than the H and wife experiencing it. No one can understand the devastation of an affair unless they are inside the marriage that was under assault. Not even the OW. It feels like she was inside of our M, but she never was. She doesn't KNOW it. She doesn't know a fraction of it. Her only hope was to destroy it. As much as we feel invaded and deceived the reality is that they don't know our marriage. They only had a small window to it, and after d-day, they have NO window. They can think or assume whatever they want or feel like. Like most other humans, they will minimize, justify, and rationalize what they did. They won't take accountability because no one will make them and that's just too hard to engage in that type of self-inventory.
HS: Your H's letter could have been written by my H. I felt like I was reading his words. I understand your devastation. I have just had a few days of it myself this week. It just comes back like a baseball bat to my knees. When I am weak or vulnerable it comes back more strongly. I had a bit of a row with my mother, not much, but enough to re-enact the FOO stuff. It weakened me, and then my thoughts started spiraling and it brought the A back to the forefront. Bad thoughts are like a magnet for other bad thoughts.
It just reminds me of how fragile we are and we have to be meticulous with our emotional health. I am keeping my distance from family for a bit because I really can't manage them. I am just about able to manage myself and my children's needs. Everyone else will get their needs tended elsewhere, they really don't need me. I am learning about putting up the walls where they are necessary.
Anyway Shirley, you fall and you will rise. You will learn what makes you rise faster. You will learn a great deal about yourself. In the end, this stuff never goes away, but you are left with a better sense of self. You are also left with a marriage that is old in history, but very young and new at heart. My H and I are like newleyweds trying very hard to not take things for granted and to change old communication patterns and habits. We are doing the work that we needed to do all along in our marriage and we never did. It's painful because the marriage is not on autopilot and unconscious as it was before. It is a conscious marriage and often times that is a volatile and in very self-conscious state. This is not for the timid or for those not sure if they want to be in the marriage. The pain is so raw that when your H still says "I am staying" despite the crap you throw at him (we all do) that means he is here to do the work. This is too hard and I really think you don't have to intellectually ask yourself "Do I want to stay" because the process of rebuilding the marriage itself will determine it.
[This message edited by zanny at 7:47 PM, November 30th (Friday)]
"Just when the caterpillar thought it was over, she became a butterfly."
I expected him to change but I knew that there would be steps backwards but as long as he did not maintain any contact with the whorebitch and as long as he kept himself from a never ending fall, I had patience.
And that's the key... how much patience we truly have. I know I had ALOT before... I stuck it out thinking things would get better once the kids were older/once we had a better house/once he had a steady job... patience. Now I'm not so patient. We've switched roles.
Thanks zanny, I feel better just taking control of my actions. H doesn't know what to do and I have to be patient (ha!) through this period of adjustment for him I guess.
Slight vent: It's extremely hard to hold my patience, hold my tongue when he gets like he gets.
It used to be my "role" to smooth him out, but I'm not any more. If he wants to rant and rave an extoll on his "theories" I let him. I don't disagree or agree, just let him go. Hey, his mood isn't going to change mine, right?
I don't know if it's the P/A or if he's borderline bi-polar or what.
The other night we dropped his SUV off at the shop. I took yesterday off so he could use my car for work. I didn't care... I thought it was great to have a day to myself. He's going on and on about how the shop is going to rip him off, how incompetent they all are, what a PIA it is to have to use my car... and why is my turn signal so loud any way?
I admit to actually getting a little amused at his ranting, but experience has shown me that when he's in this "mood" my best move is to get out of the way. He's even told me that. Like I said my natural inclination is to smoothe it over. Tell him everything's going to be ok, life isn't horrible, everyone isn't an idiot.
The last few months I've been getting angry when I hear him get so judgemental and I've been arguing with him. That never worked because by the end of the "discussion" I was also an idiot in his view.
So he calls me yesterday and asks why I was so bitchy the night before. When I ask what he means, he says he can't talk now, he has to make a left turn. WTF????
And of course there was no time to talk about it last night.
Today, he's fine and chipper. But he "accidentally" left MY alarm on for 5:30 AM and turned HIS off. HE's the one who had to get up today. Another WTF? That one I'm going to ask him about... why bring up my "bitchiness" if I don't have to.
Have a good day ladies.
BTW, there is a great thread going on in Wayward called "did you love your spouse" I found some incredibly insight (especially concerning compartmentalization) there. Thought some of you might want to check it out.
Me too. I used to make all of my decisions in seconds. I guess, one of my lessons was to learn patience. It is a hard lesson for me.
Again many hugs to you and the rest of the lta crew.
I have patience for the big things but when h does his rants I still don't have much patience. I too, thought that he would calm down once he was older. I used to pray for him to turn 50. 50 was 8 and a half years ago and he still has his temper outbursts. They are significantly less frequent but when they happen he is very infantile. I think he feels that he should have an advance man run interference for him. His mom catered to him and always excused his outbursts and shift blamed. Nothing was ever his fault. A big difference now is that he does not defend his outbursts as he did before.
I had a breakdown last night. He just wouldn't stop and it's just so hard NOT to take things he says personally, especially when he says "you". If that's not meant to be an attack, what is it?
I told him last night it feels like he has a talley sheet. Well, Weepy overcooked another steak, that's a strike against her. She wasted gas and took the long way home. That it FEELS like he's looking for things to put in my 'bad' column that will someday equal his 'bad' acts and we'll be even.
I almost laughed if I wasn't crying so hard. Because when I told him he blames me for everything that goes wrong, that I get the brunt of his displaced anger... He says "Well, you can't be the one getting it all, because DD says I take it out on her and so does DS." SO I say "What's the common denominator in all those bad relationships.. you. Ever think it might be you?" Which then turned into the "so, I never do anything good for you? I'm never nice? Didn't I compliment your dinner earlier? But no, I yell at you for moving the remote and I'm a beast?"
And of course this all took place after midnight which is a huge no-no.
So he tells me I need to tell him when I'm annoyed at him. Because I don't. I just weigh it before I do and nothing comes up as important enough to fight over. Like the alarm... he left that on so he could get up, but he didn't. It only woke me. Then he swears he got up and hit the snooze. He didn't. I know he didn't. Yet he insists to the point of hostility that he did... and that's why I don't bring anything up... he just denies he does it.
So I tell him his 12 calls during the day are annoying. A couple is fine, acceptatble, I don't need to hear about every minute as it happens. And he "hears" that I don't want to talk to him during the day. Here I think I'm letting him off the leash a little and he thinks I don't care.
First breakdown in a while. But I took a pill to make sure I sleep tonight.
G'nite all. I have to work tomorrow (boo). CANNOT wait until the 14th gets here.
My response was that my letter was based on how I feel. These women may not care about it, and they may carry on like they are, BUT at least I got to voice the effect of what they did, and how they are viewed.Maybe, just maybe, they might think twice before they hurt another family. But more than that, I told them.I did something.
Also I lump together, because for me , they are the same.I know one meant way more to him than the other, but the other was with him longer..for me they are all whores. They do belong in one group. And whether they contact each other or not and compare notes (which I very much doubt), is not my problem. I dont care.
So this led to a huge fight with us, and had me running away from him to gt away from the cruel things he was saying.Unfort it was so late, I couldnt leave the house. He was so cruel.
The stuff he said was based on what I had told him from my IC session. I feel like such an ass for confiding in him. However he said he wanted me to know what it feels like to be hounded by cruel words (like I do to him)and not be able to stop it. At one point, I went on my knees and begged him to stop, but he wouldnt. He dragged me up. I was so desperate I ran to my DS's room and clung on to him.I know that was wrong, but I couldnt make him stop, and I couldnt leave.Fort DS was sleeping and prob thought he dreamt it up.
H as since apologised and said he didnt mean what he said.But his words are still in my head.Things that he said about my FOO issues:
"I knew there was something wrong with you all these years.I kept telling you didnt I? You carried on like a goody goody all this time, but you were selfish.You only wanted to help people to fill the hole in you.It wasnt becasue you was a good person, it was because e you were so desp for anyone and everyone to like you. You are a fake. And this last year, you have been blaming me and the A's for everything, but it was ALL you! You were the broken one..way before I met you. And look at what you did to the kids! You live through them. If they do well, you feel so proud.But they are so scared of making mistakes.You think you gave them a stable home all these years..ha!You did it for yourself! So if anything happens to those kids, it will be YOUR fault! You made them like this..becasue you are so fucked up." etc etc.
He said he ddnt mean any of it, that he said it to hurt me,that he wanted me to be on the recieving end for once.
But it keeps going through my head..what if he is right?
What if I am selfish like he is , but instead of having A's, I just tried to make veryone like me..that I am one big fake?
weepy, you sound like you had a rough time too.
What makes you hang on? What stops you from doing something drastic? I find it so hard when it gets this bad. When I went to the kitchen, I looked around for a knife and if he hadnt pulled me away, I would have stabbed myself over and over again.I felt so bad and so low, like I just didnt deserve to live.
Sorry but your post just really pissed me off.
Find your happy place today. Forget about his ass. I'm not telling you to leave, that's yours and yours alone decision. But for today. You find something that will make you happy and put him completely out of your mind. And make sure he knows that you went out and had a wonderful day today. It will do both of you a world of good. Move forward on your own. Dont wait for him. Let him see you gaining ground and being happy b/c you have put him in the back of your mind. I bet he'll start trying to find his way back. But even then, I would show him that he doesn't control your happiness. Damn I'm pissed.
Please go out and have a great day. It's almost Christmas. Go out and buy you the prettiest Nativity Scene you can find. And put it in the center of your home where you can see it always and let it bring you comfort. I'll be praying for your comfort and also a beautiful day.
PS:I'm sorry that I was harsh, I just couldn't help myself.
If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?
I agree with fsa. Do not worry about your h's response to your letters. These lta doers think that they should contro everyone. They can't write the spouse's script.
I don't know what I would have done if my h did not make some fundamental changes. I might have disconnected emotionally from him and stayed. I might have left. Maybe it would be good for you to respond in a totally different way to your h. Maybe totally change the subject and act like that is what you were talking about all along. IMHO, it is time to change up and see what happens. As always I am rooting for your happiness.
I hate, absolutely HATE how this crap makes us doubt ourselves. We didn't get messed up until an unknown force knocked us off the tracks of our life. Everybody has FOO issues. Because no one's parents or family situation was perfect. NONE. But (gad, I hate doing this, but here goes) Dr. Phil says that at some point we have to stop blaming our mothers and take responsibility for our own actions. We did this... they never did.
And to answer the age old question of why I am still here, in this M... because the bottom line is.. I don't want HER to have won. Even though she'll never have him, she will have accomplished her mission if our M crumbles. So what spite? Stubborness? Desire to never put my kids through what I went through... I love them more than I love me. So what? they're my children.
Oh and just FYI -- don't ever tell them you're trying different things to help you through this... I had THAT thrown in my face (although he'll just say he was 'concerned'). "maybe you need to up your meds.... what about the books you ordered, guess they aren't helping either, huh?" And don't get me started on what he thinks about THIS place.
Stay strong ladies. I'm working my way back up again too.
Your husband is not who you think he is.
He is not you. He does not have an empathetic heart. He does not feel compassion for you.
The monster who chased you around the house using your deepest fears to lash you is not an aberration. That is who he is. It is not all that he is, but it is a part that you will forget at your peril.
My guess is that during your whole relationship you have viewed him as the good guy, and yourself as less than. He is the one everytone likes and sees as just a great guy. And you are the dose of reality, the one who is often angry, who is seen as not appreciating what a great guy you have as a husband.
Well, surprise. The reality is not so simple. He is not "just" a great guy. He is also a liar, a cheater and a monster who takes a woman who has opened her heart to him and uses her trust to bludgeon her.
One thing that d-day should have taught us is that there are parts of our WS that we never knew, nor even suspected. What he did this weekend showed you another of those parts. It isn't an aberration, it isn't something that you caused. This is part of who he is. It is a cruel part and an ugly part, but a part nonetheless.
Don't ever forget it.
What if I am as selfish as he is but just chose another route to fill that hole?
What if I am just like him,but in a different way?
What if I am the monster? Or another monster?
Sorry..I am asking questions that really noone can answer.
[This message edited by Lost Heart at 8:43 AM, December 3rd (Monday)]
"I knew there was something wrong with (you) me all these years.I kept telling you didnt I? . . . (you) I was selfish. (You) I only wanted to to fill the hole in (you) me. . .it was because (you) I was so desp for anyone and everyone to like (you) me. (You) I am a fake. And this last year, (you) I have been blaming (me) you and the A's for everything, but it was ALL (you) me! (You) I was the broken one..way before I met you. And look at what (you) I did to the kids! . . . (You) I thought (you) I gave them a stable home all these years. . . if anything happens to those kids, it will be (YOUR) MY fault! . . .because (you) I am so fucked up."
And to answer the age old question of why I am still here, in this M... because the bottom line is.. I don't want HER to have won.
The stuff he said was based on what I had told him from my IC session. I feel like such an ass for confiding in him.
You realize this is another betrayal, don't you?
I'm with FSA on this one. Your H is cruel and NOT behaving in a manner conducive to healing his marriage.
BT is absolutely right. This IS who he is, and Lost, sweetie, as Oprah always says...
When people show you who they are...LISTEN.
Listen to him.
I'm also not telling you to leave your marriage. But really take a look at what he has done since d-day to help YOU. I'm not saying he should take abuse...but I am saying that he needs to accept that he's done major damage--killed his wife's soul--and that takes a lot of making up, propping up, standing up for what he's done...for a REALLY long time. He doesn't do that. Not consistently.
I know your background is such that you are afraid of what will happen to you if you leave. Honey, what will happen to you if you don't?
You will continue to be afraid of the same things your whole life until you face those fears. You will continue to face the same basic problems and situations because of those fears. Stand up to them--come what may--and set yourself free.
You have to be the one to help yourself, Lost. Your H is not interested in seeing it through. HE is the selfish one...make NO mistake about that.
Work on yourself. Face your fears. It's all you can do. It's all you have control of. You can't MAKE him be somebody he isn't--and he's showing you who he is.
[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 8:55 AM, December 3rd (Monday)]
If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.
The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
I just read fnf's response and she is dead on. I've even told my son that when his father attacks, he's really attacking the traits he hates in himself. I wish I'd thought of that fnf when my H was attacking me this weekend.