On my good days, I cognitively therapize myself with--look at today, who he's with, how he's trying--don't dwell on what his feelings were during the LTA, look at them now--all that stuff. And I think, for me anyway, that those facts that are so haunting for me will ALWAYS be haunting and rage-inducing for me, cuz I will never really get them.
Fnf, I wish we had had 2 hours of MC! We would just be getting into the real meat of things, and then time was up.
How about you ask the MC to devote the last half hour to bringing you both back to a safe place, a sort of calming down and reaffirming time?
Are you and H in IC? I forget.
This anger has to come out Fnf. It has sat inside you for a long time, and even though events are done and in the past, your H has to hear your take on it. He needs to hear your pain from past hurts, and say something like "I am sorry. I didnt know that made you feel like that" etc.
It wont take away the event, but your pain was acknowledged and validated by him.
Only when we get the past crap out of the way, (and thats intertwined with the A), then we can focus on the future.JIMHO.
As for next week, I also think that schedule the appt for Tuesday, get the toxins out for the week, and then you are fresh to go for the weekend. And DO tell her to ensure that she sends you off in a good way, for eg, how about spending the last part on looking at all the positive things you each found in the M and each other?
Its your anniversary. Thats trigger territory in its own right. Reclaim that special day next weekend!
All the best, my Friend.
Guys, I need some advice with this issue.
H is in a heavy depression. In fact, he has been showing similar symptoms since before the M, and he would drift in and out of it, during the M.
In IC yesterday, we discussed this pattern/dance, H and I play when he gets this way...and it was so obviously wrong and self defeating to us both.
He would say hes depressed.
I would jump in (The Rescuer)and try to help, by doing things like cutting him slack in the home, taking over what chores he had etc. He of course, let me, and used this to withdraw from the family and me. I would then do more, but as time went, I would start resenting him, and my anger and frustration would grow, because I would see that he wasnt interested in helping himself. He would make token gestures like going to the GP appt I made, but wouldnt follow up on the GP's advice.
This would escalate to a stage where I would snap, and breakdown, and he would accuse me of taking over his life and being controlling etc.
And then we would both humph to our corners, seething.
Of course now I know he used his OW as a means of distraction too, so that makes me even more angry now.
So back to present.
He is in this depression phase, and even though I want to help, my anger is overspilling. I want to help, but I also want to say, "F**k You".
I am also triggering because I know when he is like that, he looks for unhealthy distractions (OW, PCgames etc).Well, he did before, and I am worried what he will replace them with now.
My IC has recommended an IC to him, as his old one was useless. Its a female, and I will be lying if I said I wasnt worried, because I know that he has issues with boundaries with women, But I trust my IC, and if she says this IC is v good, then so be it.
I am all over arent I?
Look I know I cant control/mother him. I know that.I cant make him do what he doesnt want to.
But if he is going to go down, I dont want him taking us with him.
I dont want me and the kids to pay for his inability to make the right choices. We have paid enough.
So my question (eventually)is: How do I support him without risking myself?
Does R mean supporting H regardless, even if my fears run high?
How do I stop/curb this anger at him? It just infuriates me that he knows something is wrong with him, but wont bloody do something about it. Arrggg.
You ask some very thought-provoking questions.
For me, this one has been critical:
How do I support him without risking myself?
In my IC and also in MC, I learned that my H was not the only one who lacked boundaries. My lack of boundaries manifested in a different way. Part of my R with FWH was learning this exact thing- supporting him but also setting boundaries so that my emotional and physical health would not suffer. There is a lot of compromise, but I had to learn that my needs could no longer take a back seat to his. And I had to adjust my thinking to do this. I was one of those people pre-A who constantly did for the kids and H and always put myself last. But I learned it was methat created that situation by not setting boundaries with H and the people around me. I can't remember if you are in IC, but this premise of taking care of ourselves is a lifeline for surviving an LTA.
FSA, Happy belated birthday!!!! SO glad your hubby gave you a nice gift and you are having some joyful moments again.
Weepy, Hang in there. You are as tough as nails, and I have confidence that whatever comes your way and whatever attitudes your H throws at you, you will overcome, with or without him.
OTC & Run, Love you two for tending to our newbies and looking after Zanny. You show incredible resiliance.
As for me, I am finally starting to get better from the bad case of bronchitis and whatever high fever bug I had. Thank goodness.
Note to group: I learned from experience NEVER listen to the love songs radio stations- Man, even 2 1/2 years out I triggered hard hearing the "happily" married woman married 10 years dedicating songs and sappy words to her H. Sometimes I still miss that dream that I had as a young woman that I would have that blissful M and happily ever after. Mine may be happy, but there were sure a lot of damage along the way and the marital vase has been glued back together one crack at a time.
Hugs to all,
When I see H fading like that, I will usually just ask him if he wants to talk. He'll say yes or no. If it's no, I'll say, OK you get ______hours to brood over this and then we talk.
That gives him time to mope or whatever and yet he knows I'm there with the intent to help. If at the end of the time period he is still not willing or discredits the effectiveness of my help (the 'you don't know anything about the subject, how can you help?') I"ll give him the "I" statements.
"I feel helpless and concerned when you fade away like this. We're partners, we can lick anything together."
And no, I don't think R means giving them the benefit of he doubt, trusting at the cost of our sanity.
Anger is usually a secondary emotion... what is really firing it up when he ignores his health? Fear... of what?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
I hate to say I have anger at times. It manifest when she does not help me with my sadness.
I have tried meeting her needs in many ways but that bigegst need of mine remorse sits their so alone like me.
I sometimes think I am dealing with the emmotionally unavailable as all my WS actions seem to manifest only in anger. She also watches a lot of TV which is a sign as well.
Some here are getting some remorseful actions from their WS and I know you may reject it but in a way I know it helps deep down.
I am going to my first IC session today and hope it helps my profound sadness.
That is my biggest emotion right now. I look at my daughter and could burst to tears nowing that her world as she knows it may be over soon.
As for my WS she is suppose to get one today or tomorrow. I feel like I am dragging a horse to water and making it drink.
The thing in my heart and mind is I know she can make our family happy and whole again if she would just put foward the effort. She always could have had the best love even before the affair. The affair kept our relationship a wreck and prevented us from developing a full intimate bond that is what a marriage is really suppose to be.
I believe in her and in us doing the right thing and rebuilding our family.
Good luck to all in the LTA Tribe!
I was one of those people pre-A who constantly did for the kids and H and always put myself last. But I learned it was methat created that situation by not setting boundaries with H and the people around me
HB, thats me! Well me before. I am trying to relearn more appropiate behaviour. Trying.
Weepy, anger as a secondary emotion? Wow, with me, it seems like my primary one these days!
What am I afraid of?
I dont know.
The way I see it is, if you have a problem, (health, money, kids etc), you look at solutions and you DEAL with it. You DO something to make it better.
His approach is to ignore it. If I dont deal with it, its not here. But the same problem will always keep coming back. ALWAYS.
I test one solution, then if that doesnt work, then another.I will have a plan, and a backup plan if possible. I read up, ask questions, dig around. I cant NOT do anything. I just cant.
And it infuriates and frustrates me, when he does NOTHING! Arrrghhhh.
I have a H who also procrastinates whereas I am the master of plans, back-up plans, etc. I can certainly emphathize. It drizes me batty!
With my H, I think the procrastination is part of the systemic problem that allowed the A to happen. What I mean, my H grew up hearing he was a failure, would not succeed, etc. His instinctive reaction then is just to not try- i.e. avoid. This carried over into our M. But his fragile ego couldn't take me voicing my needs (he saw it as criticims)and thus his self-esteem further plummeted and part of his escape to fill the void within himself was the A. The avoidance in your H probably has some longstanding root there, too, and takes a lot of work to un-do. I have waited 3 years for my H to finish painting our kitchen cabinets, and longer than that for him to address his hoarding problem. Every woman's nesting instinct makes her want a home that is cozy and peaceful. I've never had that because my H's clutter is a serious problem and I can't even invite people over. This is something that I am working on him with, too, but like recovering from a LTA, his recovery from years of physical and emotional abuse by his mother can't be undone with the blink of an eye or some sweet words or a few counseling sessions.
Hefty, it sure sounds like you "belong" here, matching many of our scenarios. You are early on in this process but you are lucky to have found this group. It will allow you to process things on your own timeline and make "friends" that understand where you are emotionally.
The way I see it is, if you have a problem, (health, money, kids etc), you look at solutions and you DEAL with it. You DO something to make it better.
Talked about this last night too. How I'm the face things head on kind of person, he's the head in the sand, if you don't mention it, it can't be really happening type.
This response is learned, from FOO issues, life in general.
I have a problem accepting his different reaction too.
Our biggest one is his health. he's been diabetic since 12 or 13. Doesn't ceck his blood sugar. Ever. Just takes his insulin adn goes about life. When h goes unresponsive and has a seizure, i step in adn call 911. Seriously. I have called atleast 30 times in my 9 year marriage. And still he doesn't check it but sporadically.
He says he talked to IC about it today. He came home again all pumped up about how much he likes him. My wh hates to talk--yet he and this IC go over every time! It's suppose to be 45 minutes adn they always go over adn hour. So I guess that is good. He needs to get hi feelings out. His IC told him to just look at th enext 2 weeks and check his sugar twice a day for that time adn then they woudl go orm there. I'll believe it when I see it.
I took half a xanax today adn was able to stop crying. hate that I had to do that. The second time since this all happened-and the first time was this week. Wh saw me sitting and just thinking adn cam over and kissed my cheek a couple times and touched my face with his hand and then went back to what he was doing. Boy that felt good.
I really think we could R. I really think his is willing. I just wsh I knew how to get over all the shit he has done. If I could forget it and deal with right now, things would be great. but I will never forget it.
I got to IC tomorrow. I am actually looking forward to just getting it all out adn listening to her advise. She is very good and seems to have a really good feel for my wh.
I hate to ask this right now. Who right now is near the breaking point and who is in full R and feeling better?
I was near breaking point.
Then it backed off, went into a wierd limbo land.
am feeling better.
won't say I'm 100% reinvesting in the marriage yet
will say i'm very comfortable with this new arms-length relationship I have going on with H
Need to say H doesn't seem to want arms-length anymore even though that is what he told me he wanted and that is what he gave me for years and years.
Am taking my time to see if new friendship with H will grow or was/is it permanently stunted.
Am in a better place now than I was.
But I have found in R, that not only is he capable of doing much much more than I thought possible, but he can be pretty good at it too. He has proven that many times in the last year.
So now I know (and he admitted this too)that he doesnt do something because he just cant be arsed to.
Thats fine with me if it doesnt affect me.I have learnt to let it go.
BUT its when it affects me or my life, then it drives me loopy.
I have to find a balance between allowing him to grow and be the Man in the family, and me not cracking.
The thing in my heart and mind is I know she can make our family happy and whole again if she would just put foward the effort
My H was also the responsible for her type, or in his words, "I didn't want to hurt her" and "I thought I would end it gradually" and all that unrealistic crap. And it will forever hurt that not just my pain that would erupt when I found out, but our kids pain--wasn't enough to make him stop.
25wimsey, I really identify with that one. Guess that’s why the affair ends up being unsatisfactory and unfulfilling, they’re just too weak and wet to say “enough”. And I also had “shards of glass” driven into my heart with every new revelation. I thought he was drowning me in a blood-filled pit of despair.
HB I was one of those people pre-A who constantly did for the kids and H and always put myself last. Now, I don’t. If he doesn’t see to his car insurance (first time in his life, really!), that’s not my fault, likewise the MOT and the car tax. If his Dad doesn’t get a b’day card, it’s not my fault, if his landline phone bills are now non-paper b/c he couldn’t be bothered to read the email, that’s not my fault, if his new company haven’t mentioned getting an internet connection into this house, it’s not my fault – and no, they are not using our private line. Had enough of that crap. And if he’s hungry, he knows where the kitchen is. He’s not going to be waited on hand and foot any more. But I’m having a hard time putting myself first, I don’t know who I am anymore, or who I’m supposed to be. LTA’s steal that sense of self from you without you noticing. PS. Glad to hear you’re on the mend.
LostH. I just can’t be bothered anymore. Mostly, really I can’t. I do the things that really bug me. He can’t see that the house and garden are not being maintained as they should be, but he’s never had to do or organise it and he just doesn’t see it. If there’s something specific I want done, I’ll ask him, then I’ll just do it myself. If there’s something I want doing now, I don’t even ask. But the difference now is I won’t do much for, around or to him. I shrug my shoulders. Not like the me before DDay. Strangely detached about it all.
FNF, I hope you have a lovely anniversary. Put all this aside for the day and enjoy it.
I so much want it to work and honestly believe it can but two things are ripping me to shreds:
1) How could you hurt someone so badly and not apparently care? I now she is hurt from affair fog and the OM basically just using her but wow let that go and work on us. Now is the time. I have been here waiting for her to just hold me or make a plan for a special moment.
2) What she has done to my daughter. My daughter is at the point she is just learning to talk like crazy and so happy. Am I the one to pull the family apart now? I know NONE of the affair crap is my fault but wow. Now I am the bad guy that I cannot take it?
With no help from Mrs. Smurf to help me I do not know how much longer I can take it. I keep telling myself patience but I am just so sad.
Honey are you listening?
Will she ever come around so we can really begin R? Am I asking too much right now?
[This message edited by heftysmurf at 2:02 PM, January 17th (Thursday)]
With my H, I think the procrastination is part of the systemic problem that allowed the A to happen. What I mean, my H grew up hearing he was a failure, would not succeed, etc. His instinctive reaction then is just to not try- i.e. avoid. This carried over into our M. But his fragile ego couldn't take me voicing my needs (he saw it as criticims)and thus his self-esteem further plummeted and part of his escape to fill the void within himself was the A. The avoidance in your H probably has some longstanding root there, too, and takes a lot of work to un-do.
HB – ditto – the avoideance thing needs to be seriously addressed in IC. It is not cute or funny. The root cause is the avoidance of all potential failure. Those of us who are psychologically healthy know that this is IMPOSSIBLE in the real world. The only place where no failure can happen is fantasy land. These men have to accept this, grow up and learn to accept responsibility for their actions – both success and failure. The longer they try to avoid and hide from their responsibilities, the longer it will take them to heal. However, you are right that this will be a life long process for them to recover from the early damage and to keep from falling back into the earlier learned behavior.
Imparting a lesson to his grandchildren, it is said, a wise Cherokee tells them of a fierce battle raging inside him, and inside each of them – one he likens to a terrible struggle between two wolves. The black wolf, he explains, represents all things horrific: anger, hatred, fear, sorrow, regret, greed, self-pity, false pride, and lies. The other, a white wolf, stands for love, hope, happiness, generosity, peace, humility, compassion, empathy, and truth. Answering one child’s query as to which wolf wins, the grandfather replies, “The one you feed.”
FNF – here is the Cherokee wolf story. I think of it often and try to remind my H and myself to try not to feed the black wolf.
HeftyS, Can I tell you what I did?
My H was not the most remorseful WS. He put me through hell for a long time after dday#1, and I kept going back for more. I kept thinking if I show how good we could be, how wonderful the kids are, etc. he would be with us. Wrong.
I think I started gettng an inkling of this as the ambulance drove me away from home and my kids,(after my S attempt) and the paramedic told me that he had asked H for money to give me to catch a cab back home, and H told him to tell me to take my card. Paramedic asked me if I knew how I was going to get back home. I didnt. My sister and parents had gone away for the weekend.
I was alone the whole day at the hospital, being pumped and getting sick. And I realised that I had left my babies alone with him. What had I done? How was I going to get out of there? WTF am I doing?
And this small ball of ice starting growing in my heart.
This ball grew much larger 3 months later when dday#2 occurred and I found out about another LTA that started before the M ,and lasted the duration.
But I kept going back to H for more. There have been so many times since when the pain has been so unfreekingbelievable, that without the members here talking me off the ledge, and one midnight call to a 24hr Suicide Line, my kids wont have a mum today.
After dday#2, I told H that we were not in R. That I would give him 1 year (from dday1)to prove that he is capable of positive change, that he is worth something to this family. For as much as I didnt want to live, the thought of leaving the kids alone with such a FU, was much worse.
So it was only in June 06 that I agreed to R. It hasnt been easy. And we, as you can see from my earlier post, still have alot of issues to work towards.
However, the one thing I wish I did (and trust me EVERYONE who didnt do this, says this)... I WISH I PUT ME FIRST.
I wish I had concentrated on my healing and recovery, instead of holding on so tight to a H,who didnt know what he wanted himself.
So that has been my goal for the last 3 months. ME.
The reason I gave you this whole story, is to show you that it is possible that your WS will come on board with you. But she has her own demons to contend with.And you need to sort yourself out. BUT she has to be able to put herself aside and make you the priority. If she cant, then it makes the journey that much harder.And you pushing her to, makes it harder too.
Dont play it easy Hefty.
Let her come to you.
You focus on you, and your DD.
She has to figure out what she wants and be able to put that in action. For some WS's, it instantaneous (sp?), for others, its a long process, esp if they have many layers of guck to sort through.
Hope this longwinded post helps you..and any of the lurkers.
Btw, I am a bit surprised that I could relate that story without tearing and choking up. I know some people would be embarassed if they behaved the way I did, but if my mistakes can help someone not make the same, then I dont really care.
To go along with fnf's story and how to get over the past...
I read this in a book:
There was a woman whose parents had D years ago. Both parents needed her to take them in to live with her. Both parents had memory loss and did not know that they had been married to each other. They fell in love and often talked about how awful their "prior" spouses had been. They said that they wished they had married each other instead of their terrible x spouses.
That story reminds me to be in the NOW of who my h IS and not dwell on who he WAS during his affair.
I know that this story only is helpful IF your spouse is fully repentent and IS different BUT it can take a spouse awhile to become a new person.
you have come so far - look at the strength you have today. I am proud of you.