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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs V I I I
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FSA - don't even get me started with ICs right now. I really like mine and thought we were doing great and then she threw this huge brick at me in the middle of the session yesterady and I was like WTF? Where did that come from?

Basically, as I mentioned a few weeks ago, I have allowed my H to move into a room above our attached garage for two reasons: 1) to save the $2,000+ per month we were spending on hotels and 2) to make some of the logistics of him helping with the kids a little easier. Also, I know from all you wise ones, that this is going to be a really long process so might as well get everyone "settled" until we know for sure where we are going.

Anyway, the IC knew about him spending 5 months in a hotel, she knew about him moving back in, she has been in contact with our MC and knows how we are doing. Sooooo, in the middle of the session yesterday she suggests that we should get a formal separation for a year. All contact through attornys and mediators. Formal child sharing arrangements, etc. I was like where the fuck did this come from?

This is the same IC who from the beginning has been all about protecting the kids from as much upset as possible. I asked her about that and her response was "well they know what is going on anyway". Her reason behind all of this is that I am still caretaking for my H and he needs to suffer more.

Okay, I admit I could have made him suffer more. I admit that I WANT him to suffer more. However, I am also trying to work on my marriage and how the hell is going into a year long formal separation with NC going to achieve this?

Do you think she just found out her H had an LTA??!!!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK, Shirley, I just have a second here before running out the door, but EXCUSE ME? Did your IC really suggest that? My jaw is hanging open! The process is about preserving here. Preserve self, family and M if that is the choice! This sounds so counterproductive and contrary to me. Truth be told, these therapists don't know what the fuck to do with us and I have a feeling they get their own shit wrapped up in our stories and begin looking through the lens of "if it was them" without having a fucking clue what it's like to walk in these shoes! I'm sorry, this just pisses me off. The whole damn profession just seems so ill equipped to deal with us in LTA! I wish they'd just say that instead of throwing out this cockamamie bullshit! OK, I have to quit now because my pottymouth is going to get a lot worse and I have to go get my hair cut. *&^%$#$#W$#@$#@$#%^&P(()#*& I'm calling BULLSHIT my friend!


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OTC - literally, I couldn't fucking believe. We got into an argument about it . Next session I am going to tell how completely inappropriate the suggestion was. I am going to run it by our MC so she can give her shit too.

Oh, and the cherry on the cake, when I tried to tell my H about the session and we got to that part, he lost it (justifiably). But then WE got into a fight about it.

For this I pay $150/ hour?!!

Thanks for supporting my point of view.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, and the cherry on the cake, when I tried to tell my H about the session and we got to that part, he lost it (justifiably). But then WE got into a fight about it.

Shirley,

Uhhh....this is so wrong, so counter-productive.

If ONLY therpists had a clue what their words do....and don't do.

I am also shocked at her suggestion.....so set-up, no framing it out....just drop that bomb?? God....

I can't blame you for losing it. Whatever her reasons are/were for throwing that out..she sure as hell needed to present it properly and carefully.

As if you and H needed another bone of contention...

And if your IC decided to suggest that based on a communication with your MC, in your shoes I would want to pursue that too.

And yes.....insult of insults, you get to pay for this...


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can relate to so much of what everyone is talking about the past two pages or so!! Things are going along pretty well, but I still have those thoughts going around and around in my mind. What if---he's lying about the number of times she calls about "the OC"--he says he is telling me each time she calls (which isn't that much really, but any time she does it's during the day at his work cuz of the time difference--and according to H it really is always something about OC and his medical stuff)...

Or what's different now about his feelings for me?? That one I think he really is telling the truth about--his feelings for me and our family never really disappeared--just existed alongside his parallel life with OW--easier to do in his case since it was long-distance and mostly monthly physical contacts, with lots of phone contacts thrown in. But easier to just be with me the rest of the time like everything was normal. H is a master at compartmentalizing.

It's not the devil doing this, it's the aftershocks of the discovery of a LTA--your IC needs empathize with this a bit more!!!

Haven't had any infidelity discussions in a few weeks--time for one this weekend--my pit is still there and I fall into it regularly. Maybe tonight, so the rest of the weekend isn't ruined!


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 5:05 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, hurtshirley, bet that hit you out of left field! My MC was pretty clear in the beginning about whether we were in it to save the marriage or what. We both (he more wholeheartedly than I) said we wanted to stay married. So that is what we are working toward. So to suddenly say go formal and seperate for a year after she knows he just moved back is just nutso! I feel bad for the people who have no clue what to do and take her advise!!

MC today basically told me to be gentler with myself. To not blame myself for any of it. She has high hopes that Wh will work through his issues with his current IC. It is such a great match for him adn he seems to really be talking.

She is still very concerned that I have not talked about this with anyone but her. I told her today how work is hard b/c mny people suspect one womnas husband cheated on ehr and then bought her a little sports car. She no longer wears her rings an has actd very upset for weeks. Jiust hearing all teh talk makes me sick. And another friend outside of work has a crap husband who cheats on her and pretty openly adn she refuses to believe it. They all talk about her. I don't want to be the one they are whispering about behind my back. I now a bunch already are, but they mostly work wwhere he works. I just couldn't handleit being 'my people'.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sorry - quick clarification...

My IC suggested this out of the blue, without consulting our MC and without any "set-up" with me.

Our MC does not know but I am guessing is going to be pissed when she finds out.

I am thinking that I am now in the market for a new IC...one who has a specialty in LTAs.

Geez, by the time we get through this we could probably open our own practice!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wish I had someone who had a long tem affair as a MC.

We went to a MC a couple years ago. Of course, that didn't work that well as he was still seeing the whore, but whatever. She still wasn't very good.

The current one was recommended by his doctor when he went for STD testing. She has been great. And I think she saw he wsn't going to completely open to her so she suggested he see this male therapist in the ofice and he loves him. Wh says he (wh) talks a ton in there whch is a miracle.

She has admitted to not much experience with even couples but has some and we have agreed at this point that she is a good fit for us so far. It's alwasy very open for discussion adn she has a name of someone if we want to go to someone with more expeience with couples.

I'm babbling. I hate weekends. Wh works and this is when he had th affair. Always after work but he talked to her during the night and then would come home late. he alwasy comes home on time now but it still gets me. And I have to work in the morning, but I'll still stay up until atleast midnight so I knwo he got home when he was suppose to.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

25, LH, Shirley, UK, and anyone I missed that said that they struggle with H still not being honest and open.

I just had a thought that made me feel pretty good.

I just realised that even though this is an issue and a struggle for me, it is an issue that I am dealing with that is a problem in the present. Not focusing on the past (the LTA itself). Now that I think about it I have not sunk for quite some time thinking about him and her together. That's a good thing. It used to consume me and cause such pain. But right at this moment I can let my mind go there, and although it's not pleasant, it's not so all encompassing painful.

I guess you could call that progress.

Now we're arguing about the present. Ha Ha Ha

For some reason that gives me some comfort.

Shirley, did your IC explain herself???? Did she say why you should S? Did she say what that was supposed to accomplish?

And 25 thanks for your comment about my IC needing to empathize more with me. I hadn't quite looked at it like that. She just makes me feel kind of like a bad little girl that can't tell evil from good. Like all my struggles are b/c the devil made me do it. To heck with that!!!!!


FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FSA - under all the wise LTA advice, I am tryiing to stay in the present. That is where he seems to be so I want to enjoy it.

As far as the IC, the more I think about it the more pissed off I get. I think I am done with her. You are all better for me than her.

And, I think our MC will be livid as well. t/j our mc is apparently one of the most impossible people to get into..when I told my ic about her she asked how we managed to get into her. maybe she is feelin threatened....ummmm, am i now analyzing my IC?!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Found this on Wayward--great lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxNSVXiGkk4


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That was terrific.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:47 AM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FSA, I think your IC is putting alot of unnecessary pressure on you. Your dday was just under a year ago, for petes sake!
I know she uses a Christian perspective,and that must be helpful, but making it a fight between good and evil in YOU, is just not right.
Its like you are letting the bad side win when you have these doubts. Thats not fair. If you were 15 years down the line, and still like this, then maybe, but now...

And you are right...that is progress! Yay! Looks like your pit is getting shallower.
Yay FSA and Mr FSA.

Shirley, your IC!
Think maybe it was an excercise in reverse psychology? Get you to defend the M. to show you how much you really want it? If not, looks like it worked that way.

Pity it caused dissension between you and H. It would have been nice if it made you to bond and gang up against a common enemy, so to speak.

I also agree a formal separation would be countrproductive to everything we are working toward. Good for you for standing strong.

SoL, I did find an IC who had experience with 2 LTA clients. She said the one case ended in a D as the damage done had been too great, and the BS went onto remarry and live quite happily after.The 2nd one was harder, as she stayed and came to IC for a long time. I got the feeling that the BS had been quite elderly and felt that there was no other choice open to her. The fact that the WH had a complete othr family, and continued to be involved with them as well as his original family after dday, really messed her up.

I chose not to go with that IC because she was too empathetic, and at one time, I was consoling her, and reassuring her that I would be ok.

So although an IC experienced with LTA would be nice, its not necessarily the best thing, you know?
Anyway, I am pleased that you are sounding better.

25W, so OW can call anytime she wants? She has unlimted access to H?

I get the time difference part, but can there not be a set time that she calls?(that is unless its an emergency).
What about emails? If they have contact via emails then at least you can see for yourself what it is they are talking about.
OR what about him recording the phonecalls? I know on my mobile, I have the option of recording a call.

But really unlimted access to H? Nah uh!

SoL, why do you have to stay up till midnight? What if he lets you know when he gets in,and then you check the time, and then go back to sleep?

Ok, its saterday morning and time for weekly proper houseclean. I hate housework.

Have a good weekend everyone.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Couldn't post yesterday or read to catch up. I'll try once H gets in the shower.

We actually had a productive MC session last night. I found a crack in his armor and the C actually picked up on it and went after him.

His anger, his defensiveness, his "obliviousness" to my pain, all based in him feeling HELPLESS. And since helpless is a yucky feeling, he quickly shuts that down... his method for shutting down... anger, attack.

He also said he doesn't feel safe sometimes and he doesn't like that either, so more layers of armor are needed. He pretends then. Pretends everything is just fine.

So, he apologized, from the heart for the phone incident. He seems to understand that I have NO defenses and he says he going to try harder to be more sensitive to what might upset me.

He says he wants to talk to me at home about these issues and not wait until MC, but that I never bring them up until we get there. She told him He could. He seemed genuinely surprised by that concept.

I think we actually resolved something last night...

[This message edited by weepy at 7:37 AM, January 19th (Saturday)]


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy, thats a huge breakthrough!
I wonder if the fact that you have not being falling for his makeup ploys as well after the incident, made him also dig a bit deeper?

So take him up on the offer of wanting to talk about issues outside of MC.
Are you guys going to set aside specific times, and what are the groundrules? Write them down, make 2 copies, so there are no misunderstandings.

H and I drew up a spreadsheet on the things that need to be done over the next few weeks, asigned them,with due dates, so there is NO misunderstandings on either side on who is doing what, when etc. You know how I like plans, and he likes spreadsheets, so...hopefully this will work for us.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So Lost,
“You have embraced your closure, I can’t accept mine.”
“You seem to be moving on with your life so easily. I thought you loved me.”
“Did I really mean so little to you. Was it just sex?”
“Valium and red wine make good friends”
“I think I may do something stupid”
“Oh, X, please help”
“I am sitting on our bench by the canal with a glass of wine where you said one day you would surprise me. I know you will.”
“The sex was amazing though, wasn’t it?”

A little sample of hundreds of texts I remember OW sending him after DDay. He felt compelled to reply. He had already told her from the moment I knew that it would be over, closure. That’s why I was suggesting a letter in the post. It was the only way I could begin to move on – she was always there, poke, poke poke, kwim?

FSA, my IC says the same sort of things. Nothing to do with the devil, though, don’t quite understand that metaphor. But she does think I’m frightened to leave the place where I am now, so what does he have to do to make me feel safe so that I can move on? Why don’t I believe him when he tells me he loves me? Am I sure I’m not picking at it, like a scab? Am I not allowing FWH to forgive himself? That kind of thing. She tells me he was living in a fantasy land and all that poetry was just airy-fairy living in his head stuff and nothing to do with reality. She has read a lot of it, but continually tells me it is not based on reality and to let it go (which I can’t, I know the worst passages off by heart). A knight in shining armour belongs in the land of legends. He liked the buzz of making OW feel wanted, that in turn made him feel wanted, but it wasn’t real. Well, I wouldn’t mind some time in cloud cuckoo land myself.

MC’s and IC’s. It is so important to find the right one. Our one has a full time job within the family section of social services and is quite senior, but this is something she enjoys doing. So she is talking about and seeing dysfunctional people all the time, I guess we are relatively normal compared to most of her clients!! And we’re reasonably intelligent and articulate (well, FWH is). I’m sure that some men are more comfortable with a male IC, as seems to be your case, So Lost. I hope the good work continues and he can get all that crap out.

Shirley, do you think your IC said that to make you focus on doing the opposite? To make you and him decide that option is not for you at all, whether now or the immediate future? A bit twisted, but sometimes therapists do that sort of thing to make the client have a different take and see things in a different light. But whatever, they should not have you leave in a negative frame of mind. That IS counterproductive.

And, I think our MC will be livid as well. t/j our mc is apparently one of the most impossible people to get into..when I told my ic about her she asked how we managed to get into her. maybe she is feelin threatened....ummmm, am i now analyzing my IC?!

Who was told to stay off the SI site for a while? I seem to think most of us thought it was professional envy!

Weepy, excellent result! Maybe he won’t stand back and let someone talk to you in that way again. Well done!


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tried to write a nasty ditty to ow, but didn't have it in me this morning.

Just a blah day. Cold outside. Don't feel like doing much of anything, so I think I'll retire to the couch and try and find a good movie to watch.

H knows I've been struggling with my "what else" issues. His not being able to open up to me. But he chooses to just walk around and act like he doesn't know anything is wrong. He's such an ass at times.

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost, I guess you could say OW has unlimited access to H, but only uses it for emergencies. They do have emails which I am cocopied on. And H does tell me about the calls, which are truly not often now--something is sinking in. Some of it is just pure mistrust on my part--he says he tells me all, but I can't help thinking there are calls I don't get told about.

It's paranoia--along with the fact that I know he won't tell her not to call cuz it might mess up the R with OC--can't do the court thing from a different continent.

I should ask about recording the conversations--although she calls on his work phone--good idea. The point is though, it's my suspicion that's eats at me--in this sort of work and time zone situation, there's ALWAYS a way for secret calls.

I need to just look at the rest of our lives, what he's doing, all the shit we go through to reach agreements about contact, etc., and talk my self down from my paranoia. Really no reason to have those suspicions, no "gut" feeling, no odd stuff--truly just my insecurities.

On the other hand, I had no gut feeling or suspicion during the LTA either. Though now, I think I would think differently about suspecting stuff--and I hope I'm right that I've developed a more sensitive gut.

We will continue to have "discussions" about how to manage the visits and the contact with OC, and I'm hoping this will get easier as the kid gets bigger and can contact on his own. I can actually empathize with H about wanting to do the best he can as a long-distance father, and being between a rock and a hard place given the craziness of the OW.

As an aside, that's another thing that eats at me--how could he be so attracted and enmeshed by someone who is so nutty and neurotic, then turn around and say he loves and has always loved me--we are polar opposites in most ways. I hear him say that it was a fantasy for the most part, but they did have an EA that fulfilled something deep for him, or at least promised to fill that need--I guess if it was a reality-need, and it was filled, he'd be gone.

Why can't they get that no one is all things to their partner--I know the answer to that is probably that the needs that are so longed for to be filled are not fillable in the real world, left over from FOO issues, all that. Still makes me feel that I wasn't enough--knowing that no one outside of WS himself could be enough doesn't help every day.

Just a down day I guess. But it's the weekend and we are doing some fun things here in beautiful CA--give myself a shake and get on with it.


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

“You have embraced your closure, I can’t accept mine.”
“You seem to be moving on with your life so easily. I thought you loved me.”
“Did I really mean so little to you. Was it just sex?”
“Valium and red wine make good friends”
“I think I may do something stupid”
“Oh, X, please help”
“I am sitting on our bench by the canal with a glass of wine where you said one day you would surprise me. I know you will.”
“The sex was amazing though, wasn’t it?”

UKGirl,

Sad, sick head ramblings from a career slag.
Any OW who chooses to stay in a LTA knows the score. They can delude and pretend until hell freezes....but they KNOW exactly what is NOT going to happen.
“Did I really mean so little to you. Was it just sex?”

This is just amazing...

Hmmmm, let's see...."You aren't his wife, you aren't the mother of his kids, he doesn't want anyone to know you exist, he isn't leaving her for you...and all you do is have sex."
Still wondering....??

The only thing left for them is toss out any cloying, pitiful line, any hook they can dredge up.

There is probably a companion guidebook to the "Cheaters Handbook of Lies, Con-Lines and Cliches"...

"The Other Woman's Book of Post D-Day Desperate Lines and Pleas"...

[This message edited by numb and scared at 2:10 PM, January 19th (Saturday)]


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"The Other Woman's Book of Post D-Day Desperate Lines and Pleas"...

How could you, I thought that you looooved me.

We could have had a beautiful future.

OH to hell with that.
But I'm such a skank
Dont you like my bj's
When the rest of my teeth fall out i'll be able to do even better bj's
You'll save money by not having to buy me deodorant
And I never need to go to the dentist
And I'm already so ugly that there's no reason for me to spend money at the beauty shop b/c it'll never help
I thought you liked whores?
What does she have that I don't have other than your love and your kids and your house and your money and the respect of your family and friends
I don't mind staying hidden from the public
You know that I would always be true to you
It's o.k. that you won't have anything but the shirt on your back after your W fries your ass in divorce court
But I like seedy relationships
We were so good for each other except for the fact that we were both living a lie and betraying our families to the point of destroying them, but other than that we were good huh.


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
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