He did nothing to console me, and was in fact angry, saying that if I didnt trust him by now, then we might as well call it quits.
God I hate this. It looks a lot like gaslighting.
I remember, a year before I actually "found out", I found a text message that was not good. It wasn't BAD or revealing (obviously, or his LTA may have ended a year sooner) but it wasn't necessarily appropriate.
Of course, he didn't know WHO that person was that sent him the text. Didn't I ever get text messages accidently from people I didn't know? And the best one--he didn't care WHAT I thought, he didn't know WHO that person was. He even went so far as to imply I must be crazy--and so I thought I must be.
Wullllllllllll, he lied. He came clean when I told him to dial the phone and say "Hello" while I listened. That would tell me if he knew her or not. Oh, well...OK then--he DID know her after all. But it was nothing. And guess what...I believed him. Because he told me some bullsh** story that he thought I would get mad if he told me the truth (which wasn't really the truth, right?). Said he thought I'd be mad that he was talking to a girl he used to work with on the phone, so he didn't want to tell me. But it was nothing, he assured me.
But if it was nothing, he wouldn't have lied at all...because it would have been nothing.
If only I'd have been more vigilant. <<sigh>>
Why at this point, would your H lie to you about something that was innocent?
But I agree with the others that you should trust your gut. It's telling you to pay attention. SO PAY ATTENTION!
Whatever happens, Lost, you are stronger than you know. You have come so far and you will be ok with whatever happens. You are not alone.
Whatever the truth is, hon, it will set you free.
[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 1:49 AM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]
If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.
The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Hold on, LostH. Find that quiet place to contemplate and sort your thoughts and feelings. When times were really bad, I went to those recitals in the cathedral every week and sometimes twice a week. Iíd listen to the music and then just sit, watching people coming and going, lighting candles or just coming in for a momentís prayer and Iíd try to listen to my inner self. Even if I had found no answers, I came out feeling better about me, about myself, knowing that I could like me, that I was a nice person, that I knew I was loved and needed. Iím not religious, but the cathedral is open to everyone and I have used its space to find some peace whenever Iíve needed it.
Keep posting, Iíll check in later this pm.
Listen to yourself and be strong. ((((((((((Lost Heart))))))))))
[This message edited by UKgirl at 3:28 AM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]
Something is not right...and I dont know what. It could be this woman, or someone else, or it could be somethng else completely.And I dont know what.
So how can I even fight if I dont know what I am fighting for.
This could be a temp setback, or it could be worse.I dont know.
But life was falling into place. I got a job, the kids are settling down, we were looking into buying a house by next year, planning a trip to Disneyland this year, him getting a new job (he had seen some that were financially and professionally very lucrative)...so I am at a loss why he would do anything stupid at this time.
Would he sabotage everything we have worked for thus far? For what?
And the keylogger issue is bizarre. Why now? If I would have done anything dodgy, it would have been when I was at my weakest, last year sometime, not now when everything is looking good.
The thing is I really dont mind him putting it in. The only thing slightly "dodgy" that I do do, is rant about him here..and that he can see anytime.So..
I know I am rambling..just trying to work through my thoughts.
Since I dont know what to do, I will do nothing for now.
I am feeling quite anxious and panicky inside, but am going to keep busy today.
Thank you all again.
FSA, your prayers must have worked cos I managed to get the kids off to school, happy and innocent.
I have mightily struggled myself the last few days. As mine was a double betrayl LTA my home is so violated. Times OM was here and they had sex is killing me lately. I understand the whole compartamentalization thing but the disrespect that was done to me and my daughter while we slept is eating me lately. The little remorse she has shown (i get some via email only) hurts like hell. I would feel HORRIBLE if I did things in my home with my daughter present.
I do not know what a real marriage is like as mine lasted my entire marriage till d-day (I hope).
The other thing that is hurting me is my WS has treated me like crap for a long time. Can she change?
I love/hate her right now and sometimes wonder if I am only here for my daughter. It seems so unfair that I was not the one sleeping around but I will lose half the time with my daughter if we seperate.
I did this a few days ago and maybe this will help you lost heart. I set a date May 1st for her to start showing big progress in being what I and our daughter need her to be. I want this to work and believe it can. The barrier is in me dealing with this and like you I do not feel like I am getting help from my spouse.
Stealing a quote
"It will get better, if not, easier to deal with in time, but not for a long time. Do you know what I noticed here? If you have a S who is 100% remorseful, working hard at R, willing to put you first above all else, willing to do what it takes...man the battle is half won!"
Wow that would do it! Especially the willing to put you 1st above all else.
Counselors, MC, AD's are not really helping me only you guys and gals are because I feel you are the only ones that understand me. Thank you so much.
[This message edited by heftysmurf at 5:24 AM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]
If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?
Today is another story.
He got the card at our local Dollar Tree yesterday. I knew that. He's cheap. Didn't bother me, it was the thought that counted. But he left the bag on our table and the receipt in it. He bought TWO cards. So where's the other one? That means either a confrontation when I ask about it or a midnight raid on his car. If I make it light like "so where's my other card?" he can stop today and pick up one to cover if he did do something stupid.
hefty, I answered your PM with specifics, but we've all been advised to not make life altering decisions for a year. Unless of course the affair continues. If there's NC, a recommitment to the M on the part of the WS. Wait and see how you feel a little while down the road. 3 months is still a very volatile period.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
You set the date at May, which is in 4 months time. Ok. Have you set out together what changes you want made specifically? For eg. dinner at home 4 times a week; more intimacy; more involvment in DD's life..etc.
Is your time span realistic?
I dont know your W or what her and your issues are, but my thinking is that May is a short time to expect someone to change lifetime habits. So my suggestion would be to use May 1st as a halfway mark, where you both meet up formally, and have a discussion on what worked and didnt work, what was achieved and what wasnt and why.
You might find that the things that are impt now, might be relegated to the back, and some new issues will come to the fore. KWIM?
That being said, your W's lack of remorse is worrying. Is she in IC? What does remorse mean to you, and is it possible that she could be showing it in her way? For eg. for you it might mean more intimacy and physical affection; for her it might mean cleaning the bathroom everyday before you shower cos you like a clean shower. You know what I mean!
As for the house being a trigger, thats a hard one. Aside from moving, I dont have any idea on that.Sorry.
HeftyS, can I ask you why you want to stay in the M?
Apart from your DD, what else is keeping you? What is your motivation?
Hi FSA. I'm ok. Just got back from the hospital as I had to do a blood test.Got a bit lost coming out as they have changed the rooms again. And I bumped into the shrink who attended to me Aug 06 in A&E. He looked at me and said, "I know you from somewhere", and we exchanged pleasantries.I cant believe he still recognised me.Either he has an excellent memory, or I am so unforgettable! For today, I am going to believe the second one!
Weepy, I didnt get a chance to tell you that it must have felt so nice yesterday. Yay Mr W. Lets keep him on his toes. He seems to perform better!
Hold on about asking about the card. Maybe he plans to keep it for emergencies.
But let him be for now. You dont want to spoil his moment, right?
Btw, H sms'd that he had fixed the keylogger on his laptop. Seems that when he downloaded an antivirus, it must have interfered with it.Sounds plausible.
He also called to see how I am. He said he's trying to focus on work, and not think about us. I said the same.
Damn, I wish I could read that man's head!
I think back before our marriage and than after and remember how my wife treated me. I was gold before. Now I am dirt.
I feel as if nobody is helping me heal except you gals. You have been their, have insight, and show some sympathy. I would love that from her. Thank you again.
The other item that is bugging me is LTA I think are so unlike anyone else. Their compass has a magnet pointing south or something. I personally could not sleep with someone, come home and say I love you. I would cower hide and after a while it would crush me and I could not keep it in.
I sometimes doubt they love us or now what love is. Can they really learn to walk in anothers shoes and really put others 1st?
I do love her. The special is gone forever but in someways I think more of our needs can be met. It can be better in a different way. I just pray to God it is in her to help our M survive. I believe she can do it. We can survive this oh so horrible event.
Quick question to all in the tribe do all the LTA WS have childhood issues?
Lost heart -
My goals are as follows:
Some sincere appologies beyond I am sorry. Asking for forgiveness.
Showing some of her true self because she does feel bad but does not show it consistently. She states she is embarrassed and ashamed. I would hope she could put that aside some for us.
Holding me when I cry and propping me up a bit. I feel forced to hold it in. I want to bleed it out.
Not always breaking out the angry stick at me. This is the huge one. Such a short fuse with me and sometimes our daughter. That has gone on pre-d-day as well. That will be the number one issue in us staying together.
Way more intamcy. Holding me without solictitation and instigating love.
A good progress on the above. I do not expect near perfection but strong steps.
She has done some of the above lately which is why I hope. The instigation of intamacy this week and a nice email. No consistency however. I would love some more intamacy and a card, note, anything today.
You made me think maybe we should both go back to the needs questionairre we filled out and may a real plan on top of the date.
I wonder what she believes she is doing is remorseful? Good question!
The thing that to me is so weird is the three weeks after d-day she did this. I was still so hurt to accept it and it is as if she gave up. She washed my bed, bought cards etc and then just said hell with it it seems.
The other oddity is we have dinner together everyday. I called her 3 tiems a day at work. Shw would call from work. We shopped and went out together a lot. It was funny in MC when our conselor said how bout callling and having dinner together more. We always have!
The only mitigating factor in the house trigger is that was my daughters birth home. Only thing that has stopped me from burning it down!
Staying in the marriage.
That is the hard question I am stuck on right now.
Is an LTA with best friend the ultimate betrayl and absolute lack of caring?
They had sex at least 100 times. It was a whole second life. OM knows everything private about MY WIFE. She knows thing about him she should not have. That is NOT LOVE. I struggle with I love you from her. Yeah that was REALLY showing love. I am sure you were thinking of me when you were doing this a lot. She skipped work to see him. Did it in my house and theirs. Sometimes I think it is too much. Too much not carring, selfishness, betrayl of our daughter, her friend, me. Only worse thing she could have done is harm our daughter physically.
Her actions can change that.
I am so so attached to my daughter. Sometimes I think that is the only reason. Half time with daughter and fear of what she will be exposed to at my WS house. Do not get me wrong at all. My WS is a great mother. Her tendency's scare me though. I know she would not knowingly expose her to anything but I think about OK she is at the age of being aware of the world. Had this continued what if she would have seen them together?
Or maybe my motivation is if my WS could treat me like she did pre marriage. I was special and it was real good. Was never angry at me. That is why I married her. That is my other motivation I believe. Having that again would make it worth it and make it easier for me to swallow the crap sandwich LOL.
Makes me ask the other LT's why do you stay?
[This message edited by heftysmurf at 7:31 AM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]
Weepy, what a wonderful thing to hear! Your wh did good and shoudl get the credit for it. My IC keeps telling me that I cannot change a lifetime of the way wh communicates in a few weeks. It's going to take time and I need to tell him when he does something good, for my own sake. Oh, typing as I read....I woudl NOT mention the other card. I would give yourself a couple days to find it. Or ask when he is home to show it to you b/c the receipt freaked you out. Don't be accusitory. Give him a chance to prove it was on the up adn up. That way you wo't doubt his answer and start questioning everything.
Valentine's Day. My mom's birthday, so I can always focus on that part of it. Wh has always come up with flowers (grocery store on the way home ofrm work) and a card and candy adn such for the kids. It all feels so pointless now. He says he got her just cards for -day adn alwasy funny, not romantic. I chose to believe that for my own sanity.
We're both off all day V-day this year. Kids in school. I wish adn hope and dream he woudl suggest or come up with something but I will not get my hopes up. I can't.
OK, can we talk about sex? (Let's talk abuot sex baby-that song just popped in my head!) lol. Got our package of viagra/cialis in the mail yesterday. He made a point to tell me. Then I went to work until 10 pm. Now, we haven't had sex since last Sunday, so over a week. He now has these new drugs to use. ED problems. Woudln't any normal guy want to try them out right away???? I refuse, absolutel yrefuse to initiate right now. He has to. But it is killing me. I think b/c we didn't haev sex for 2 years of the affair, I equate the two together. I find it so demeaning, or crushing to my self estee, that he doesn't have nay interest. He might on some days if I initiate but doens't really do it. And when I bring it up sarcastically will say "Oh, yeah, I never initiate". Umm, no, you don't!!! Sorry just a vent I guess. I'm frustrated to say the least.
I stay b/c I love him. I stay b/c I don't want to send my kids lives into turmoil. I stay b/c when it's good, it really is good. I stay b/c I promised in front of God and friends and family that I would. Even if he didn't keep those promises, I did.
I wonder what she believes she is doing is remorseful
hefty, I actually asked my H this a while back... "What is it you are doing that I'm not noticing. I want to be sure I have your signals right." And he was able to give me some examples.
Now, they weren't what I would call remorse or amends, but they were changes.
So Lost, yeah, I"ve pretty much decided I have to look for the card myself. The problem is when... it's got to be soon. Otherwise the card could get buried under a pile of work crap and he could "lose" it.
Would he sabotage everything we have worked for thus far?
Because, as you said, life was falling into place. I think you're H has serious fear issues (what the fear is, I do not know...could be commitment, abandonment, etc.), and he does this to sabotage himself. He definately fits the mold--especially with cheating so early on in your relationship. And if he is still cheating--he absolutely fits the mold.
Weepy, your post has me triggering. I also found a receipt once. For four cards. Yep, two for me...two for her.
But they were all for me, you know. But he couldn't produce them because they were in his locker at work. Stupid me...(feeling bad that I spoiled my own surprises) "Oh, OK."
God, I was stupid.
I met with nas yesterday and we had a wonderful time. I have made a true friend thanks to my h's lta. She is beautiful inside and out and sooo intelligent and soooo easy to be with. We did discuss the upcomming book and we are ready to GO.
Our book will be the b.s.'s journey after the lta. It will be annon and will be published to help newbies get an overview of how others healed after the lta. We are looking for volunteers who are willing to help others by sharing their story. This is open to those who R or D.
Some of you have already indicted that you are interested. If you are still interested, pm me for details.
If you have just heard about this and want to contribute, please pm me.
AND WE ARE OFF!!!!!!!!!
LostH, How are you now? Whatís going to happen tonight, is he coming home? He canít keep doing this to you, you know. Loading an anti-virus doesnít sound that convincing. Iíd be looking v hard at this minimising the contacts and time spent with this female colleague. Anyway, whatíre you going to do?
NMS/NAS. Wow. Thatís all I can say right now!
Because, as you said, life was falling into place. I think you're H has serious fear issues (what the fear is, I do not know...could be commitment, abandonment, etc.), and he does this to sabotage himself. He definately fits the mold--especially with cheating so early on in your relationship
And if he is still cheating--he absolutely fits the mold.
So what do I do now Tribe?
How do I find out? I dont think I can carry on as normal, without knowing what "IT" is that has me
Short of going to the office, and interviewing every female there, what do I do?
And what if it is not OW related, but his crappiness-related? How do I believe anything that he says, without proof? How does he prove a negative? How do I prove a feeling?
Thank you again my Tribe.
One more thing, I have been pretty cool today.I noticed that I react like this when something bad happens, then I crash the next day.
So be warned...there might not be any smileys tomorrow.Lets hope that we can resolve this tonight.
SoL. I can understand your dilemma re. sex. Damned if you, damned if you dont.
Have you and H spoke about this issue, factually, without getting emotional?
For eg. what is the root of his ED problem? Anxiety? Fear? Does he have difficulty getting/staying hard, or is it PE?
Is it seen as "his problem" or a "couple problem"?
I hope I dont come across as harsh SOL,thats not my intention. I just feel that this is something you both could work on together, and it will make sex seem so much more intimate.KWIM?
sorry, robt, I know that we have similar issues, how could we all not, after that many years, they used them all, right? I had a jewelry receipt in my hand right after Christmas one year during the A. I asked him about it and he said "I took it back because you pissed me off" or something to that affect. He later claimed that the receipt never existed, didn't know what I was talking about. Of course by then it had disappeared.
Now I've returned enough stuff in my lifetime to know that they mark the item that was returned on the receipt. Either he would have thrown it away or the receipt should have been marked as returned. But since I had lost about 100 IQ points by then, all I could think of was how I'd lost out on something because of something I did. He was unhappy with me, I'd done something wrong, again. Never even occured to me to KEEP the receipt. I put it back where I found it.
I dont know what I am going to do UK, cos I dont know what I am dealing with. Something smells...thats all I know. Have IC tomorrow. Cant wait.
NAS and No Mor...that is wonderful news!!!
I dont mind my story being used since its going for a good cause, so if you're interested, give me a shout out.
Thank you for this. I hate thinking that other people will have to go through this crap, but at least they will do so, having the right tools at hand.
Ok. Lets talk about sex. I see your H has diabetes, which probably contributes to the ED. However, he was able to have full sex with OW, yes? So it would seem the problem is in his head (the one on top of his shoulders, not the other one). You want more and heís not particularly responsive. Maybe the answer is to start at the beginning. Say no to full sex or orgasm (sorry, but yes) for a couple of weeks. Have you got any massage techniques? If not, get a book out (Dorling Kindersley publishers do a brilliant little pocket book ď101 Essential Tips MassageĒ with easy to follow photographs) and get down to whatever equivalent of The Body Shop is and invest in base oil (almond) and a non-scented carrier lotion. Iím lifting this verbatim from one of my books.
Useful oils: The sweet, all-pervading scent of Ylang Ylang and the heady aroma of Clary Sage will help to encourage relaxation and feelings of sensuality. Rose Otto, although more expensive, is another exquisitely scented oil that is closely associated with sexuality. Sandalwood and Geranium are useful if you are also depressed. When selecting oils, bear in mind that an aroma which appeals to you may not necessarily be acceptable to your partner, so choose carefully and before you blend your oils, decide what kind of effect you are after. A mixture of Sandalwood and Ylang ylang will give you exotic perfume, while Rose Otto and Geranium combined will have a flowery scent. In contrast, Geranium and Clary sage give off a pleasantly sharp, fresh aroma.
Sandalwood, Ylang ylang and Rose Otto are base notes. Geranium is a middle note and Clary Sage is a top note. Generally, a mix is made in 15ml(3 teaspoons) oil or lotion. I would suggest a mixture of two essential oils, two drops of a base or middle note , three of a top note.
Itís a lovely way to have full, loving but non-sexual contact (although things might move on later). If you havenít done it, try it. If you have done it before, do it again! And get him to try it on you too, but the rule is, he mustnít get a hard-on, itís distracting!!
ETA: BTW, donít bother with any of those ďmassageĒ bottles in sex shops. Theyíre icky, chemically sweet and cheap smelling. If youíve bought any, chuck them out. Yuck!
[This message edited by UKgirl at 12:57 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]
if I didnt trust him by now, then we might as well call it quits.
Even if NOTHING is going on right now, even if there isn't even an attraction, a thought about a co-worker, nothing, he should never say the above to you. He abdicated the right to be completely trusted by his actions. ALL of our LTA spouses have completely and utterly given up the right to be wholely trusted again. Might we learn to love them again, perhaps. We will learn to respect them if the rebuild themselves, perhaps. Will I ever completely trust my H again - never - I will always keep a watchful eye and have my spider senses tuned in.
2) Again, no matter what is going on, he is having boundary issues. I had never even heard that expression before SI but have read some incredibly insightful posts by Desert Lotus and Lady Kv. about boundary issues. It sounds to me as if you need to a) be very clear as to what YOUR boundaries are as far as telling incomplete truths, changing stories as he goes about his interactions with ANY AND ALL women, you need to let him know what your boundaries are about those interactions. (I have told my H that he is never to be alone with another woman, no innocent car rides to a meeting, not even in a fucking elevatore - she gets in, he gets out, etc).
and b) given all of our Hs history of needing external validation and the slippery slope - he needs to but in place his OWN boundaries that he won't cross to keep himself out of trouble.
Gotta run, hope this helps,
BTW - how do you guys stay on here all day?!!!
God forbid I miss a day, then it takes me all day to catch up and read what I missed at which point I have missed another 3-4 pages.
What do you all do, get up, get dressed and get online and, if so, how can I do that to?
Anybody want to come and 1) keep my clients happy and 2) take care of my kids while I spend a few days chatting with you all?!!
Okay...back to catching up...