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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs V I I I
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shirley, I am awful with beauty stuff. I only started properly using moisturisers and night cream last year, can you believe?
I also didnt know what to use, so I have been testdriving a dif brand every few months.Whatevers on promo at Boots, and not v expensive. I still cant justify spending money on myself to myself, esp since its not my money!
At present, its Garnier. 2 months ago, it was Clarins. Before that Olay.
I am SO impressionable!!

***
((((Unicorn)))))
There are a handful of posters who I MUST read, and you are one.Your compassion, empathy, strength, wisdom and humor comes out in your posts. You have helped so many people here, and many times, lurkers like me, who piggybacked off other threads, because I was too chicken to post.

I dont have any advice on your sitch, but I thought I would just let you know how much your help has meant. Thank you.
This weekend will be tough for you, and I hope that after all this time, it brings you some peace, closure and some kind of restitution.

(restitution n. The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered)


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
unabletocope
♀ Member
Member # 11730
Default  Posted: 5:14 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LOL, HS- I just did the same thing a few weeks ago! I use the Olay regenerist like Weepy (just started using this about 3 weeks ago), and the eye cream is fabulous! My under-eye skin has gotten really dried out from the salt in my tears (I'm guessing), and the eye cream is making a huge difference! So far the daily facial moisterizer is my favorite of all the brands I've tried.

[This message edited by unabletocope at 5:15 PM, February 1st (Friday)]


me-LTA BW


Posts: 2598 | Registered: Aug 2006
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 5:19 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have an issue that I would like to entrust to the Tribe.

Its something I am ashamed of.

Today H and I had a big arguement, and I said some very mean things to him. This is not the first time I have done this.
He said some awful things too, but that doesnt excuse my behaviour.

I feel so bad afterwards. Bad that I said bad things to him, bad that I made him feel bad, bad that I let myself down.

This is not me.
But I still seem to do it.
Some of the things I said,
"You are a loser. You f*cked up all our lives. How can I trust anything you say, you are a effin liar and a cheat. Do you ever think of all the innocent lives you have damaged? You are weak. You cant be trusted. Just because you havent had an A for 1.6 months, do you think that makes you some sort of hero? How do you look at yourself in the mirror without getting sick?"

I know this doesnt help anyone. He feels bad and then lashes out at me, and I end up feeling doubly bad.

What is wrong with me?

IC said that I must not protect him and let him be a man, and real men dont behave in the way he does (the verbal/physical abuse), but isnt that me just shifting blame though?
I do needle him soemtimes. I know that I will most prob end up getting hurt, but I still argue/question/annoy etc.

I am doing pretty well with moving on (I think)but this is one of my stumbling blocks. I know I do have alot of anger and fear.

Anyhow, if anyone has any kind of advice, I would appreciate it. Am knocking off now, but will check in the morning.

Thank you.
LH


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost - As you well know I had some pretty serious anger issues. Delving into the FOO stuff and FEELING the anger at the appropriate people really helped me curb and eventually stop the lashing out at H. I suggest you explore and try to get in touch with anger that may be latent. It makes a HUGE difference to finally release yourself from it. But first you have to fully feel it and express it finally in order to be released. Hope this makes sense.

Shirley - I'm also a Cetaphil gal. I also would suggest straight Vit. E oil mixed with your regular moisturizer. Just need a couple of drops. This has made a HUGE difference for me. I bought it in the health food store and it worked wonders. Also may want to try a very fine exfoliant a few times a week too. I also use a product from Clinique every day that I LOVE called Turnaround Concentrate Visible Skin Renewal. I LOVE this stuff. Not sure what it does but it makes my skin really creamy and silky (purring). You use it before your moisturizer. And now, from the spa slut , how bout a full facial with the works! Whatever they have going on - get it! And why not throw in a massage, pedicure and manicure while you're at it. Just got back from an afternoon at the spa myself and I feel like a million bucks! And I have no doubt I look YEARS younger!


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 6:49 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OTC - Love the "spa slut" analogy. Had my first pedicure in YEARS on my birthday!

So, it is sounding like a Cetaphil, Olay, Origins bake-off. Wonder if I should divide my face in thirds and see what happens? Hmmm, guess I will have to grow and third eye. But, after all this LTA shit, I actually think I might be able to do that too!!!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
unicornsearcher
♀ Member
Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 6:52 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Obviously, my WS mistook the "How to Destroy Your Marriage & NOT Reconcile" book for his bible & followed it religiously instead of using the helpful ones out there.


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((uni)))

?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
unicornsearcher
♀ Member
Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 7:04 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I mean that he went to so much effort to do so much in a way guaranteed to destroy our "marriage" & by extension me. I just can't understand that. Either be honest & stay in or admit you don't want to be married & get out. Why stay married while refusing to give it anything sort of a real fighting chance & keep hiding behind so many lies?

I know that with most if not all LTA's lying certainly becomes a way of life in at least that "compartment" if you want to see it that way so that getting in the habit of being truthful is a challenge & one that needs constant practice. I know that there is probably a very high percentage of LTA's taking place with emotionally unavailable partners who will also have to learn to express themselves way more constructively than choosing to cheat / lie again & that will definitely be a struggle for them.

But there is certainly a ton of stuff I don't understand & likely never will, sigh...


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:07 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((uni))))

I am such a newbie and you are like a guru here. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you must be in. All the sage advice you have dispensed to all here. I have read multiple posts today of people thanking you for guiding them through their darkest hour. You must know your path if you can guide others.

Please tell me if there is anything I can do to help other than to say we are here.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

God, Uni, my heart just hurts for you.

I know that there is probably a very high percentage of LTA's taking place with emotionally unavailable partners who will also have to learn to express themselves way more constructively than choosing to cheat / lie again & that will definitely be a struggle for them.

Tell me honestly...do YOU believe it is possible for men who have been crippled by their emotional unavailability to re-learn a new way of expressing their feelings? Feelings they haven't ever even been aware that they have?


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
unicornsearcher
♀ Member
Member # 912
Cool  Posted: 7:45 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

do YOU believe it is possible for men who have been crippled by their emotional unavailability to re-learn a new way of expressing their feelings? Feelings they haven't ever even been aware that they have?

Honestly, YES. I also think the Retrouvaille program is one of the best ways to help with that, but it would have to be consistently practiced to have any effect.

When we were first together, WS was willing & able to make much more of an effort to communicate his feelings. Now granted, it takes not accepting what they say at just face value but asking what they mean & follow up questions which help them verbalize things more precisely.

For example:

How was your day today?

Fine.

In what way?

It was an OK day.

What did you like best about it?

We had a really good mtg & now we're all set for next week so I'm relieved about that.

I can see where that would have made you feel better about the stress you've been feeling on that project. What was the worst part of your day?

It was just an OK day.

There are very few perfect days in life, so was there a part that you didn't like?

Not being able to even take a lunch break, it made me feel exhausted all afternoon.

So it sounds like you're pretty tired & hungry even tho you had a meeting which made you happy, want to just relax with a fast dinner here?

Yeah, that would be nice, I'll go get changed.

Since apparently most if not all that he told me about main OW & his relationship with it was a lie, I won't comment on how that played in with the version I've gotten all this time...

In our case we severely underestimated the amount of damage from prior abuse on WS & I was not nearly as proactive as I should have been about the red flags I saw early enough to stop this trainwreck. Add those factors to being long distance most of the time, so it was easy for him to have a hidden life & here we sit today. And in our case, a lot of the problems were based on a foundation that really, in his life very few if anyone really cared what he thought or felt, so he didn't get to share any of that with anyone. The closest he had to that prior to me was his kids & you can't share adult stuff with them. That really makes me sad for him, cuz even tho I had the crappy childhood, I've been fortunate enough to have had great friends as sounding boards that did care what I was thinking & feelings (you guys included!).

But yeah, change is possible just not easy or automatic. It can be frustrating but you know what? It was worth it to take the time & effort to hear him out because we all deserve to have someone that is there for us, even when or maybe especially when we are at our most unloveable. Course I'm referring to regular people & not true monsters like the Manson's & child molesters of the world.

And I wanted to know him better & that he did matter, just like I wanted him to know what I was really thinking / feeling & wanted to matter to him. Otherwise, we could be friends or roomies, but not what we committed to from the start. We definitely lost our way big time on that deal.

Unfortunately, once the disconnect started & was nutured by him, he was smart enough to know how to fake being real & loving enough to keep me enough off the real trail for all this time, dang it. Altho I don't think he did fake all of it, I do think there is a part of him that desperately would like to make things right but it is a monumental struggle for him not just because of his nature, but now because there is such a mountain range of horrors he's covered up for so long that he would rather never happened & certainly didn't want to have to confess to. So I got more of the version he wished had happened if the betrayal had to take place instead of the whole truth, hoping that would be enough to try to make things better with.

And I have told him he definitely married the wrong one this time, cuz I wouldn't settle for that & have been like a pitbull on a rampage unwilling to settle or accept anything less than what I was promised, agreed to & gave all along, the whole truth. I was never the "tiptoeing BS" except for when I would go into my Stepford Wife routine for small spurts of time to show him I could be a robot too.

Life is quite a challenge isn't it? Where the heck is the SI cruise ship? I need a world wide cruise to mellow out with tons of spa goodies & get to meet all you guys!


11/02 Busted WH 4+ cheating yrs, 11/06 Busted [Month Long Lustfest]. 2/1/08 admits false version of betrayals, so no full disclosure / "whole truth" yet. '09 Together, great work in progress. '12 Still gladly united.

Posts: 14209 | Registered: Jan 2003 | From: Calif
up2me
♀ Member
Member # 10681
Default  Posted: 8:12 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

uni
what a fabulous idea..an SI cruise

Posts: 690 | Registered: May 2006 | From: ny
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 8:31 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Awe man, just when the Tribe gets going on skin care I'm outa commission.... WAAAHHH...
I also have aged so much in the past two years in the face and yes, I think stress from the LTA has a LOT to do with it. Another thing affected by the LTA. But I'm going to run out and try some new products you guys mentioned! Then I will hope to actually use them. I find I get so busy I seriously forget to even use these special face washes or daily moisturizer creams.

On another note, I wanted to share something with you guys. I had so many problems with comparing myself to OW, wondering about his "love" for OW, etc. in the beginning. So my FWH and I had a huge blowout recently and then he gave me an anology I wanted to share. He compared the LTA going on while being married to me to astronomy and the stars. The world is rotating and both stars are out there. BUT he said to me "one star was always shining brighter than the other."

YOU, TRIBE, ARE THE SHINIEST STARS. Always remember that.....

Have a good weekend, guys...

HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uni, add me to the list of those who have been helped by your posts. Good luck with this new voyage you're embarking on--and I don't mean a SI cruise! Keep us posted.

Lost, all I can say is that everything you said to your H I've thought to myself, and recently too, when I'm having a downwards ride on the roller coaster--don't say it anymore cuz H knows it all and it doesn't help. It took me a long time to stop the lashing out--partly by going to IC, and partly from realizing that the anger springs from the hurt which will never really go away. Accepting that is a goal of mine--accepting that the hurt is part of me now--and expressing it in IC or a journal now--and it doesn't rear its ugly head so much now--you know, time!!

There's a post on Wayward from a BS who had a lightbulb moment in realizing how her WS feels about himself, looking at himself in the mirror, realizing the damage he'd done--I think that's true of WS who really are remorseful and want to reconcile. That helps me too--knowing that I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, knowing what resulted from his choices--he has to live with that.

Not to say my feelings aren't there and real--but it is a balance after all these months--to try and remind myself that he's different today than he was then--helps a little bit anyway.

I wonder if all these beauty tips would make a dent in a 59 year old?? I do feel old and battered-looking--half the time I think, I am who I am, take it or leave it, and the other half I pull back my skin on my neck or around my eyes to pretend that it's smoother than it really is. Another fallout from the infidelity--I used to pretty okay with how I looked, wrinkles and all--now I sometimes compare myself to the 15 year younger OW. Sucks.

Even that's getting better though--sometimes anyway. Such baby steps I take in dealing with all the shit.


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yea the LTA has aged me quite a bit too. I did buy some facial products a few months back and all new make-up. Don't think they do much good other than to make me feel a little better about myself.

LH, sorry I'm not much help for you here. I too have lashed out many many times. I'm not as bad about it now, but I do get that way at times.

Night

[This message edited by Feeling so alone at 9:30 AM, February 2nd (Saturday)]


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 9:59 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost--Do you think you say those things to punish him?


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 11:39 PM, February 1st (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost,

Hmmm....the lashing out...

Definitely comes from anger and acute soul-level disappointment.

I am sure we all not only know the drill on how that goes, but have done it too.
I know I have.

It is impossible not to have those excruciating flashes of "OMG..he did it and the lies and the sneaking and the gaslighting...on and on....and....it can't be undone."

Once that train gets going in your head...it is hard to stop. Like having acute emotional nausea, which will only be relieved by verbal vomiting.

But I do want to say I wish there was a handbook or DVD for WS, clearly depicting helpful hints for behavior post D-day. Particularly explaining how to not escalate their BS's moods when they need to talk or question (yes, question again) by going into flight mode...hoping that to distract the BS will minimize and/or deflect the conversation.
That is usually what raises the bar for the BS on how bad that event will be.

I see it as a different kind of PMS that comes from LTAs.....
Painful Memory Syndrome.

Lost, it does get better...or at least your need to do it will get less.


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just a short time here.

Thank you all for your replies.

Definitely comes from anger and acute soul-level disappointment.

Definitely!!
I want to add to that FEAR.
Having experienced what both ddays did to me, and the ripple effects on our children, our families, our friends, our whole lives... I am very afraid.
Esp when he displays behaviour or thought processes that indicate to me that he still has the potential to inflict that trauma on us again.

Fear also that the next time, I would surely blame myself. Having known what he is and what he is capable of , I still took him back (twice!), so i would bear some responsiblity for that trauma.

Like letting an alcoholic (who I know is not totally sober) drive a car full of all the people I love and care for. Makes sense??

Thank you all again.
***

FSA, I have the same problem now. I have always have 2 groups of friends, my inner group of 4 v close buddies going back to high school and uni; and the outer group of casual friend I make where ever we happen to be living.
After dday, I withdrew from everyone.

I live here.
But I am slowly trying to come out again. I am v wary now of who I talk to.
How about joining a group who share interests similar to you for eg. reading, acting, etc.

*****

((((unicorn))))
Its amazing how your strength and compassion still manages to come through at this dark time.



Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 8:07 AM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Having experienced what both ddays did to me, and the ripple effects on our children, our families, our friends, our whole lives... I am very afraid.

Absolutely true, Lost. When there are more then one D-days, that fear factor is there....how could it not be?

Esp when he displays behaviour or thought processes that indicate to me that he still has the potential to inflict that trauma on us again.

Yes....And this is not a BS hanging on to old stuff and stonewalling about moving forward. This is a logic that cannot be ignored....it makes you stay protective of yourself and your family.

Like letting an alcoholic (who I know is not totally sober) drive a car full of all the people I love and care for. Makes sense??

Makes perfect sense.
A sad, but very apt analogy.
This is the challenge for any BS, but it most definitely relates to the LTA spectrum.


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MC last night. Told her about the fence-sitting stuff-- his view. I told him I had days when I was on his side of the fence and days when I was back on it, but I had never come down on the side of leaving. I also told him that maybe I wanted to be asked. His response was that it was my decision and he would have nothing to do with it.

So after session I told him to look at it like I was giving him a chance to do what he never had the chance to do... ask me to marry him. He said we were way past that and couldn't go back and redo our engagement, that ship had sailed. So I said, what about that I never go the chance to say yes and verbally commit like that to you? What if I want that? His response was "you screwed that up, not me." So I left the conversation with "well, it would be nice to be asked to stay."

So I figure I planted the seed. It took him 2 years to figure out how to deal with my triggers, maybe he'll get this eventually.

Then he called our DS who was supposed to let him know about skiing plans for the end of the month and berated him for being irresponsible and unmotivated and inconsiderate for not getting back to him within 24 hours about his decision. And I got mad at the way he talked to him. Told him he was unnecessarily hard on the boy. Reminded him of how gentle he is with DD and SHE's the irresponsible, inconsiderate one. To cut HIM some slack. HE said he can't. He's making him more responsible by demanding he toe the line. I think he knows that DS doesn't respect him or his "rules" any more.

But he's not going to get it back by demanding it. Just like he's not going to get my "decision" by demanding it.

LH, I am ashamed when I lash out like that too. I realize on one level that it's still anger at myself for allowing him to treat me the way he did. For allowing myself to be duped, not only for him duping me and treating me that way. It's a double dose of anger and hard to contain sometimes. I'm actually trying to learn to forgive myself for saying those things. Then maybe I can learn to apologize to him for saying those things. But I give myself permission to be angry where I never did before. I thought by being angry and lashing out, I was risking losing him. Now I know if he can't stand the fire, he shouldn't have jumped into the ho pot. I wish he realized it.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


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