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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N.P.D. Thread Part V
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct That post is right on the money. I gave and gave until I thought I was going to go insane. Of course he would demand more and even get others (family and friends) to tell me that I was not a good enough wife because he was unhappy and it must be my fault for not giving him enough sex, attention, admiration etc. and for not doing enough around the house etc. He works so hard at his job. You are at home so you should do everything else and care for the special needs kids. In my case everything else also included all the repairs and renos as well as the regular cleaning etc. I lived on the brink of a nervous breakdown for years. Of course I was depressed and all I wanted to do was sleep. WHo wouldn't?

Thanks for sharing that. It really is difficult to explain to people who have never lived with a blackhole.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jj~ In your 'I'm glad i'm SOMEONE WHO CAN LISTEN' -Yes, me, too!

I opened up my N's mails yesterday to find out about my health/dental card from his job. However, I made certain to EAT my dinner FIRST because they have that deleterious effect of tightening me up.

I read one where he comments about a tragedy ever so briefly then barrels right on through about HIM, etc.
I noted how it was just the PC "polite thing to say" about this tragedy...if I did not KNOW he was an N...I would NOT have picked up on it, really, because he said "all the right" adjectives.
But, now... I *know* him & WHO he is...that blackhole-man-in-the-box creep.
It (tragedy) did not affect him at all.
Because the bag of dicks eater cannot FEEL.

The upside after I read all his horse shit was that IC was right in telling me to put *distance* & not open up his mails nor talk to him.


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Dreamy)))
If I recall this statement is a literal translation:
"Because the bag of dicks eater cannot FEEL."

May his wee willie and it's extension wither like a plum/prune with a popsicle stick stuck up it's ass.

LOL.

BoB


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Narcissist are notorious for expecting everything and appreciating nothing.

They act as though it is their birth-right to have the best of the best, yet they are not inclined to contribute to the financial requirement needed to obtain such luxury. When the victim does the providing, there is no "thanks" or appreciation, it's just more what else are you going to do for me attitude and expectation.

It's exhausting and never ending.

jjct, your post is dead-on. You were grinding you teeth too? Hmm....wonder if that is another symptom of NPD surviors?

[This message edited by sadtoo at 4:20 PM, January 19th (Saturday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7925 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Longlost
♀ Member
Member # 16177
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Longlost raising a hand.

I grind my teeth badly enough that the dentist made me get a bite guard. Siiigggghhhh


Wisdom and pain are not mutually exclusive.
____________________________
Barn's burnt down--
Now I can see the moon.
--Mizuta Masahide

Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: West of Bizarro World
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me TOO!!

It's better now, and I'm not doing it as bad as I was back in the day.

Wow.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7925 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Longlost
♀ Member
Member # 16177
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Tribe))), WARNING, this is a very long post.

Some of you know that I'm 20 years out from my Bizarro marriage and that I had a very frightening PTS emotional flashback thingy this past summer that led me to SI.

I've been working with an IC to understand what happened in that Bizarro marriage and why the pain revisited me recently. This new knowledge, I hope, will help me to keep the Bizarro years high up in the back corners of my attic with all the other bat-shit.

I think I reached a bit of an understanding breakthrough while responding to a recent e-mail from the sweetheart that I gave up eons ago to marry Bizarro. And I wanted to share this with you. There are still pieces of the puzzle missing, but I can finally see (and admit) some things about myself that I really didn't understand before.

It is finally clear to me how being my mother's daughter prepared me to be Bizarro's wife. I now understand what my IC meant when she said that I "accepted the assignment" and basically married my mother. What's new is the understanding that my compassion for my father and my desire to NOT be like my mother also worked against me. Maybe this information can also be helpful to those of you in similar situations and to those of you with children. Maybe you can guide them past similar pitfalls. It's good, of course, NOT to be NPD, but it's also good to avoid going so far in the other direction! Sighhhh...... It's hard to see that in myself and confess it. I am STRONG, dammit. But I laid down my arms voluntarily and allowed Bizarro to dominate me. I did. And it haunts me terribly. He was an asshole, but I was a fool.

I thought I always had a strong sense of self. I thought I always had good self-esteem. These are half-truths. I was raised to postpone my own needs and wants. Defer them long enough, and they functionally cease to exist.

Oh, well. Maybe now, understanding this, I can forgive myself and finish this healing process. Maybe, in the final analysis, it goes even further toward eliminating the remnants of Bizarro World from my current existence. I will consign all that to bat-shit yet!

I'm quoting part of my response below just in case it might be helpful to others.


Daddy and I were able to get a lot closer after my mother died. While she was alive, though, it wasn't possible. Mama wasn't a complete narcissist, but she was a very damaged person with lots of narcissistic tendencies. If I happened to show my father any affection, if I did anything that made my mother feel that I loved Daddy more than I loved her, her response was to punish him. She was mean enough to him as it was, so I was very careful about being affectionate. And I think it was the same with him. Mama HAD to be the center of everything. She HAD to feel that we loved her more than anything else. You did NOT want to upset that balance! I guess mama owned both of us in a way. She was so hurt and we didn't want to hurt her any more, so we let her control so much of our lives. But you don't see it that way when it's happening.

Still, in spite of it all, I was always so much more my father's child than my mother's. Always. She demanded. He asked. She tried to define me. He asked me who I was. She gave me expensive things that she couldn't afford and that I didn't really want and then berated me for being ungrateful. He gave me the little bag of fruits and nuts that someone gave him for Christmas, and it was diamonds and rubies to me. He bought a package of two cinnamon buns for lunch and left one of them for me with a little note: "Baby, for you." And that was pure love to me. She tried to tell me how to live my life and criticized me when I didn't choose what she would have chosen. He told me to change my oil every 3000 miles. She said "Why do you want to go to college? You're already married." He said "I can't pay for you to go to school, but as long you want to go to school, I will give you a roof over your head and food to eat."

So I grew up sort of lashed to a damaged mother who really did the best she could and meant well for me but who was totally incapable of really caring for anyone. And there was Daddy. He was my role model. He was my guide. I didn't understand that then. What I understood then was that I did NOT want to be like my mother. When I married, I wanted to be tolerant and patient and affectionate. I didn't want to criticize and cuss and throw temper tantrums when my husband was interested in things other than me--I wanted to do things with him, and I didn't want to be dependent on him. I didn't want to make outrageous demands and berate him when he couldn't meet insane expectations.

Sadly, it seems it was a combination of growing up in a household where everyone was forced to push back their own needs and wants to pacify my infant mother and a strong desire to define myself in opposition to my mother that led to the single greatest act of self-betrayal of my whole life. I married another infant--one who could never be pacified. Loving you--and letting you love me--was selfish. I was needed elsewhere. I pushed back what I wanted very much.

Of course, I did expect that I would find fulfillment in that marriage. I didn't see it at the time as any kind of self-sacrifice. But I'm still trying to remember and/or understand what the hell I was thinking. I might never know. I do fully understand that when I sent you away, I amputated something vital of myself. And looking back on that marriage, I almost (but not quite) wish that I had not worked so hard to be the kind of woman my mother had lost the capacity to be. I wish I had had some of her anger. I was far too tolerant. I surrendered far too much of myself.

My case is a bit extreme, to say the least! :-) But I think you were quite right that we do have in common that strong influence and love of the one parent, and I think that we also share that we defined ourselves in opposition to the other parent. I'm so glad that you and your Mum had such a wonderful, close, mutually nurturing relationship. And even though I didn't have that same kind of relationship with my Daddy, I did always know that he loved me unconditionally, and I did learn so many things about how to be live life and be happy. I'm sad that you spent a lot of years when you were a kid longing for your father to love you, to acknowledge you, to see you as your unique little self. And he couldn't do it. He was more like my mother. There was no discipline in your house because his punishments had nothing to do with you--it was all about him. When you grew up, you knew what your son needed because you DIDN'T get it from your Dad, and you made damn sure that your son did. I think that you also admired a lot of things about your dad, and you are like him in some ways, some good ways. I hope that before he died he was able to express admiration for you and that he was able to acknowledge what a good son you are--what a good man you are. You deserve it, sweetheart. I'm very grateful that you have your son to tell you that, and I know that he does--if not in words, then in deeds.
quote]

[This message edited by Longlost at 5:20 PM, January 19th (Saturday)]


Wisdom and pain are not mutually exclusive.
____________________________
Barn's burnt down--
Now I can see the moon.
--Mizuta Masahide

Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: West of Bizarro World
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((LL)))

Wow.

BoB


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
Longlost
♀ Member
Member # 16177
Default  Posted: 6:02 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((BoB)))
Yep. Mindfulness. Compassion. Consideration for others. BUT....
Please teach your girls to be aware of and considerate of themselves, too. Teach them to ask themselves what THEY want and need. Some things can be negotiated in relationships. Some lines should NEVER be crossed. Only the individual can draw and defend those lines. No one else is responsible.

When we live with good, compassionate people, it is never an issue. But we know now that there are plenty of pitiful, personality-disordered savages out there who will ravage our souls to try to slake their own ungodly and unslakeable thirsts. IF WE LET THEM.

Boundaries. Boundaries. Boundaries.


Wisdom and pain are not mutually exclusive.
____________________________
Barn's burnt down--
Now I can see the moon.
--Mizuta Masahide

Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: West of Bizarro World
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((LL)))
AYe, agreed. I teach them a lot about boundaries and to recognize when they are being crossed. Whether it's friends, family, STBXPDW, cows, themselves or even rabid squirells (Like Foamy). LOL.
Seriously though, I do.
Check this out:
http://www.joy2meu.com/Personal_Boundaries.htm

BoB

ETA: I believe that when it's time to fight, you fight. I'm a follower of the Art of War by Sun Tzu. The art of war is to not fight. But when it's time to fight, it is to be swift and decisive. End it.
I teach my girls to not start fights, but it's OK to end them. It's OK to fight for what's right, to protect themselves and others in need. Warrior Monks. Like Shaolin:

There is an old Shaolin edict which reads:
run before you fight
fight before you injure
injure before you maim
maim before you kill

"The essence of this saying is that when one chooses to protect oneself, one must do so using only the minimum amount of force and severity necessary to achieve that goal."

Not that they need to be aware of this edict now. But it is in the way of the Taoism and Buddhism that we live.

Kinda like with STBXPDW. I did not start this fight. But I will end it. She refused to honor boundaries of DDs and myself. So be it. Consequences of her actions. Does this make any sense? LOL.

[This message edited by bobelina at 6:29 PM, January 19th (Saturday)]


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
Longlost
♀ Member
Member # 16177
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

cool!


Wisdom and pain are not mutually exclusive.
____________________________
Barn's burnt down--
Now I can see the moon.
--Mizuta Masahide

Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: West of Bizarro World
lanea_nakole
New Member
Member # 5155
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes I am dealing with a NPD, my husband. The latest is he went and bought a two seater racy car when I am about to have our third child and we have been talking about upgrading to a bigger family car. I could not believe he just bought this with no regard to anything else. His response was, "Doesn't my happiness matter?" It is always about him and I am reaching the end of my friggin rope.

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2004 | From: Houston, Tx
Longlost
♀ Member
Member # 16177
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, BoB, it makes wonderful sense. And you are a wonderful father.

I hope you know that I didn't mean any of this to be preachy. And my message wasn't just for you.

I just hoped to share that actually living with one of these sad creatures has such long-lasting ramifications. Living with my damaged mother damaged me more than I realized, in spite of my father's efforts. It would make me so sad if one of your girls should ever write a letter like mine to a lost love someday.

I know that your words carry weight with your girls, and that you have been a good example to them! And there's only so much you can do to protect them. They must make their own mistakes! May their mistakes be joyful ones instead of sad ones!


Auntie Longlost


Wisdom and pain are not mutually exclusive.
____________________________
Barn's burnt down--
Now I can see the moon.
--Mizuta Masahide

Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: West of Bizarro World
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 6:55 PM, January 19th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dr. Harley’s Marriage-Builders says first, to ‘affair-proof” your marriage, you need to meet your spouse’s most intimate emotional needs.
The problem with a narcissist is that you can’t, and you’ll be pilloried besides, for never having done so despite your long and fruitless efforts!
How often have you been reminded, dragged through the detritus of your past failures to do just that?
How often has your honest, tender-hearted concern been laughed at? Scorned? Just forgotten without a shred of appreciation?

I go back and forth as to whether fwh is N. Some descriptions seem to have many items that fit him. Others, less so. Maybe he's mild N. But reading this, it sounds exactly like the initial crisis in our marriage, except that it was his sister, visiting us, for whom I did everything in my power. This list is quite lengthy...including 6 hour round trips at the drop of a pin when she requested, but much more than that-- while I was quite pregnant, no less. She finished the visit by being rude to me, informing fwh that I had been terrible to her (years later, I've still been given no specifics as to what I DID that was so awful), and pushing him quite hard to divorce me. Ever since, he has defended her behavior by insisting, despite telling him the numerous things I did for her, that I was unkind. He can't actually tell me a single thing i did that was unkind. But she 'felt' unwelcome, therefore I was bad.

Can N be a whole family disorder??

The follow-up to that was that he then informed me of all the ways I had failed him. That quote is the story of our marriage, me doing everything he said he wanted, and it was never good enough.


How often have your past mistakes been displayed to all who would hear, as evidence of your “badness”?
Yes, I feel that's happened here, too. I do have to give credit where credit is due: I've hardly heard a criticism in over two years.

You are kept on the uncertainty of egg shells as to just when the docket of your magnified crimes will be technicolored to friends and neighbors.

Oh my gosh, YES!!!! I have been afraid to breathe wrong for years, because I saw that he'd go to his friends and tell them how awful I was. I have finally learned to see that as their problem if they believe bad things about someone without ever having met them.

For most spouses of a narcissistic partner, the fact that your partner is still needy is held up and often rubbed in your face as proof of your incompetence,
Can N's change? I'm meeting his needs far less than I ever did, and yet he's saying nothing. I'm undecided as to whether he is truly N; maybe mild ones can change? Or maybe he will eventually get the ego strokes elsewhere once again, just as I fear.

And often, when you’d “do the thing” requested, it was tainted by;...
I was simply told it was 'too little too late.' And looking back, I wasn't necessarily told in so many words by him that I wasn't meeting his needs, but it seems to me that the string of women I now know about was a pretty clear message, pounded in by all the save your marriage yourself books that told me how I should meet his needs. I realized, on reading one of them, that I was doing 90% of it 90% of the time, and that he was doing virtually none of it for me. What an eye opener.

Pointing out their lack of effort and dearth of results has long since ceased to be an option,

When I pointed out the disparities here, I was simply told it wasn't happening.

It’s likely that you’re confused, when you never were before...

SO TRUE!

You’ve been conditioned to accept crumbs of affection and it keeps you hopeful that things will change.

Yes!

[This message edited by capri at 8:21 PM, January 19th (Saturday)]


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
itsabattle
♀ Member
Member # 13036
Default  Posted: 2:12 AM, January 20th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct - your post was spot on! It always makes me sad when you recognise yourself in the npd victim descriptions. I guess it is because you almost feel ashamed at what you bacame at their hands. I can't wait for the time when I can love myself again and feel worthy. My ex has left me with no confidence and it comes out in bizarre ways.

I think you are right Bob about ending the fight swiftly. The npd freaks choose to fight us and when the time comes to end the fight (on our terms) they are often surprised at how you bring about the end. I know from experience that my ex had in no way predicted quite how quickly I went for his jugular! He thinks it was all about revenge on my behalf - for me it was survival.

LL - when I was having counselling I had to look at what pre-disposed me to choosing the freak. I analysed my father/daughter relationship at length; sometimes it was uncomfortable but I believe knowledge is power.

I did not grind my teeth, but my allergies went way out of control. In fact, I am still reigning them in!

Have a good day my friends!


Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
itsabattle
♀ Member
Member # 13036
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, January 20th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I saw my chinese doctor today and he said I wasn't respnding as well to the treatments as I did before Christmas. I am even having allergic reactions to the needles for accupuncture now. This is quite depressing for me as this is my life-line as I can't go on anti-ds due to allergic reactions etc etc.
He said my whole body seems full of fear. I was quite shocked when he said this but after thinking about it for a while it seems quite accurate.
I have spent the last couple of hours trying to define what I am scared of. I have come up with being scared of letting the kids down, scared of never loving again, scared of loving again, scared that this is all my life is now and finally scared of having a breakdown. Really scared of having a breakdown.
Does this sound about right after surviving an encounter with a nutter like my ex? Is it ptsd?
Something else for me to worry about now.
It is so hard to survive these days.

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
StungAgain
♀ Member
Member # 13283
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, January 20th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Morning Friends

Bob, I really admire your belief system, mind if I take it on as for myself?

LL, honey I had no idea about your life story. Thank you for sharing it again so others like myself can "catch up".

Lied, you are so right, it is very hard to get others to understand what our "blackhole" is like, when it is even hard for us to explain it.

JJCT, your post is spot on, I too can relate to a lot of what you have written, at times I felt like I was reading MY life.

Dreamlife, I know how you must have felt when you read your X's mail. That is similar to how I felt when I saw my STBXH cell bill and literally learned of his double life in one instance.

Sad, you are so right, I have reflected on the things I have done for STBXH and wondered if I will get a thank you or appreciation for the gestures I have/had done. Sometimes I do, but I think a lot is unsaid.

Lanoea, wow honey that has got to be so dam frustrating!! Here you are ready to give birth to your baby that you both created and all he can think of is himself!!

Capri, I am starting to think that my STBXH's family is as N as it appears he is. Reflecting it has to be a learned perhaps or are we born with these traits?

Itsabattle, my god when you said that your X thinks you are now doing things for revenge, it rang in my ears like my STBXH has said to me in the past. I often would look at him like he had rocks in his head and ignored his comments.

I think I got everyone

STBXH and I spoke last night, he said that after he gets his mortgage, he is wanting to work on himself.

I said what does that mean? He said he wants to continue with IC and/or go to the kind of therapy that I did wherein I entered a day treatment program. I am not optimistic that he will do that, as he said "might"

The problem I am having is being that he is showing N traits I am not sure if he will actually do all of the work at hand, or just talk the talk and not do it.

I have been wondering if he is"using me" for my help only? Seeing what has been written here and how N's quite often will be a certain way till they get what they want, then POOF, just making me think and my guard is up even more.

I often wonder if he understands what he has done to me?

I know you are probably thinking well what is it that you want?

Nothing has changed, I am doing IC, working (I now have 3 jobs all part time) and living in my home, which I am no longer willing to just "give up".

For so long I hated living here, it didn't feel like home, nothing felt right and suddenly the very idea of not having this place makes me feel as if I would be losing a part of my identity.


BS 41 (me)
H 42
'GOOD FRIENDS ARE LIKE STARS...
YOU DON'T ALWAYS SEE THEM,
BUT YOU KNOW THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE.'

Posts: 822 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: British Columbia,Canada
StungAgain
♀ Member
Member # 13283
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, January 20th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((Itsabattle)) I totally understand what you are saying. I too receive accupuncture and in the past have received herbs for treatment.

I would bet dollars to dimes that your Chinese doctor is right on the money, and it makes sense with all that you have had to endure with your X.

Pat yourself on the back for being able to recognize this in yourself, yes with the help of your doctor. He is there to help you and he will. Be as kind to your body as you can, do you have any activities that you like to do that are a good outlet for your stress to be released? Warm baths, showers, massage, even a treat for yourself (pedicure, manicure, hair cut). I also journal write whenever the mood strikes me and it really helps a lot just to unload the fears I have inside and to release them onto the paper.

I hope I was able to help some. Do you attend IC?


BS 41 (me)
H 42
'GOOD FRIENDS ARE LIKE STARS...
YOU DON'T ALWAYS SEE THEM,
BUT YOU KNOW THEY ARE ALWAYS THERE.'

Posts: 822 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: British Columbia,Canada
itsabattle
♀ Member
Member # 13036
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, January 20th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Stung. Yeah had IC before Christmas, all the herbs etc seemed to be working but after Christmas I have felt very low. I think I went up too quickly, thinking I have recovered (because I want to be recovered ) and I have just spiralled down a bit.
I do feel a little better for having acknowledged my anxiety with the doctor and I think I might give my counsellor a call for a couple more sessions. The counsellor has said I am very hard upon myself and I guess this is evidence.
I think I am trying to get back to be the person I was before...but I need to realise I have changed. For the worse unfortunatly.
I need a confidence boost but I don't know how to get one!

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, January 20th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[This message edited by jjct at 7:49 PM, February 19th (Tuesday)]


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