Thanks again everyone - it is a blessing to talk to people who understand.
Or do u think this is a case of PASSIVE/AGGRESSION?
My N hardly ever shows any anger...he's a saintly N.
Could you give us some examples?
downfall also posted about the various "types" of NPD's in the beginning here...(or maybe it was the last NPD thread).
Maybe he is a P/A or maybe h is just a wanker!!!
Just a quick comment before heading off this morning on the question of anger...
Yes, although I'm pretty sure there's a continuum of PD behaviors -
that is, PD's can be 'had' by degrees, one is either "more" or "less so" -
I thought that the crucial link within all PD's was anger.
Barely suppressed, even twisted- as in passive aggressive,
but anger was the link - the thing one sees when the mask slips (or your goggles slip!)
So on first thought, I'd say "no" - absent anger - prolly not a PD, or NPD-
I'm not trained in psych & don't even play one on TV, so I could be off...so any 'correction/clarification' welcome.
Punishment comes in many forms. It isn't always violent or even obviously abusive. Torture is a fine skill.
The "narcissism" in NPD, while it CAN be related to physical appearance, actually refers to preoccupation with self--with the construction of a viable apparent self to shelter behind (because the "real" self is perceived--at least on some level--as too reprehensible to acknowledge or lay bare to the world). Physical beauty can be a part of that constructed self, but we shouldn't mistake conceit about physical appearance as central to NPD. It can be totally irrelevant.
Angels, it's difficult to say what your guy's problem is. If nothing else, he sounds self-centered, shallow, and irresponsible. NPD? Possibly, but probably not. You'd be in worse shape if her were! P/A? Possibly, but more likely just P/A tendencies and habits rather than a full-blown personality disorder. We live in a passive/aggressive world, I'm afraid. Wanker? Yup. I'd say so!
Forgive me if I seem harsh. I know the answers are never simple. I know that love is a complex emotion and NOT logical, and that we can't simply unlove someone once we discover that they are not good for us. But you do know that, regardless of what HIS problem is, YOU don't owe him your unhappiness, right?
"He never really looks down on people though or insults people... even behind their backs"
There is also the everpresent anger and not being treated the way they expect to be treated because they are so high and mighty. That can be disgused but it is always there. The more suppressed it is the more dangerous it can be at times because they will eventually blows. Alot of the people I have seen with a PD will only express the real rage in intimate relationships behind closed doors. To the rest of the world they present as the nicest people who can charm the pants off the pope. At home they act like terrors and abuse and harm those closes to them. This is one of the ways that they can fool the professionals making the disorder so hard to detect. The mask will slip somewhere, somehow usually at a time of real stress.
People can be seriously screw up and not have a PD. However a PD just adds that "special" twist to them that does damage to those around them and makes them difficult to treat in therapy.
I am sorry that you are dealing with someone who is a liar and a cheat. Those things do alot of damamge to their victims all on their own.
The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.
A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.
Anger and Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Narcissism is a somewhat less severe form of psychopathy. It manifests aggressive, paranoid, and borderline characteristics, but more commonly appears in the form of envy, greed, power lust, an extensively rationalized sense of entitlement, and a pathological grandiose self. Unlike psychopaths, narcissists can experience loyalty and guilt; but like psychopaths, narcissists lack empathy or caring for others, viewing people as "playthings" to be used. Female narcissists tend to be the kind that "sleep" their way to the top; male narcissists tend to get ahead by becoming involved in massive power struggles. Psychologists suspect that the cause of narcissism is severe mental or physical pain in childhood at the hands of a powerful, idealized mother-father figure. Inconsistent parental attitudes on aggression and self-assertion as well as childhood experiences of being valued for specific, precocious talents seem to be the prime determinants. They never learned who to identify with -- the aggressor or victim, and they developed a pragmatic philosophy of siding with winners, regardless of who was in the right or wrong. In fact, they believe that the "good" is usually changeable and fickle while "bad" is stable and predictable. They live life by idealizing those who satisfy their narcissistic needs and systematically devaluing and denigrating those who do not. Underneath their superficial charm, they feel they have a right to control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others.
Narcissism is a relative newcomer to the list of mental disorders. It was not fully defined until the late 80s. There's not much research proving narcissists are more prone to violence than any other group, and no one has a clue as to how widespread this particular personality disorder is - estimates range between 3 and 15% of the population, with 5-7% being a fair estimate. Being a narcissist is close to being an alcoholic but MUCH more so. Alcoholism is impulsive behavior. Narcissists have this plus hundreds of other problems. Narcissists frequently have uncontrollable behaviors, like rage which is an outcome of their grandiosity. Narcissists can rarely be cured, but side effects, associated disorders (such as OCD), pathological lying, and the paranoiac dimensions CAN be modified.
ANGER, WORRY, RAGE
Most Personality Disordered people are prone to anger. Their bottled-up anger is always sudden, raging, frightening and without apparent provocation by an outside agent. It would seem that people suffering from personality disorders are in a CONSTANT state of anger, which is effectively suppressed most of the time. It manifests itself only when the person's defenses are down, incapacitated, or adversely affected by circumstances, inner or external. In a nutshell, such people were usually unable to express anger at "forbidden" targets in their early, formative years (parents, in most cases). The anger, however, was a justified reaction to very real abuse or mistreatment. The patient was, therefore, left to nurture a sense of profound injustice and frustrated rage. Healthy people experience anger, but as a transitory state. Personality disordered anger is always acute and permanently present. Healthy anger has an external inducing agent (a reason), and is directed at another (coherence). Pathological anger is neither coherent, nor externally induced. It emanates from the inside and is diffuse, directed at the "world" or "injustice" in general.
The Personality Disordered are afraid to show that they are angry to meaningful others because they are afraid to lose them. The Borderline Personality Disordered is terrified of being abandoned, the Narcissist needs his Narcissistic supply sources, the Paranoid, his persecutors and so on. These people prefer to direct their anger at people who are meaningless to them, people whose withdrawal will not constitute a threat to their precariously balanced personality. They will yell at a waitress, shout at a taxi driver, or explode at an underling. Alternatively, they will sulk, feel bored, drink or do drugs, all forms of self-directed aggression. From time to time, no longer able to pretend and to suppress, they will have it out with the real source of their anger. They will rage and, generally, behave like lunatics. They will shout incoherently, make absurd accusations, distort facts, pronounceallegations and suspicions. These episodes will be followed by periods of sentimental sweetness and excessive flattering and submissiveness towards the victim of the latest rage attack. Motivated by the mortal fear of being abandoned or ignored, the Personality Disordered will debase and demean himself to the point of provoking repulsion in the beholder. These pendulum-like emotional swings are common. Anger is the reaction to injustice (perceived injustice, it does not have to be real), to disagreements, to inconvenience.
Hostile expressions by the Personality Disordered are not constructive they are destructive because they are diffuse, excessive, and unclear. They do not lash out at people in order to restore self-esteem, prestige, or a sense of power and control, but because they cannot help it and are in a self destructive and self-loathing mode. Their angry episodes contain few signals or warning signs. Their anger is primitive, maladaptive, and pent up.
The Personality Disordered also suffer from a cognitive deficit. They are unable to conceptualize, to design effective strategies and to execute them. They dedicate all their attention to the immediate and ignore the future consequences of their actions. In other words, their attention and information processing faculties are distorted, skewed in favor of the here and now, biased on both the intake and the output. Time is dilated for them and the present feels more protracted, "longer" than any future. Immediate facts and actions are judged more relevant and weighted more heavily than any remote aversive conditions. Anger impairs cognition. The angry person is a worried person.
The Personality Disordered is also excessively preoccupied with himself (solipsism). Worry and anger are the cornerstones of anxiety. The striking similarity between anger and personality disorders is the deterioration of the faculty of empathy. Angry people cannot empathize. Actually, "counter-empathy" develops. Recent provocative acts by others are judged to be more serious just by "virtue" of their chronological position. This is what distinguishes rage from anger. Rage attacks in personality disorders are always incommensurate with the magnitude of the source. Anger is usually a reaction to an ACCUMULATION of aversive experiences, all enhancing each other in vicious feedback loops, many of them not directly related to the cause of the specific anger. The angry person may be reacting to stress, agitation, disturbance, drugs, violence or aggression witnessed by him, to social or to national conflict, to elation and even to sexual excitation.
From an article written by:
by Dr. T. O'Connor, Dept of Justice Studies, NC Wesleyan College
[This message edited by sadtoo at 11:37 AM, March 12th (Wednesday)]
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)
The brainwashing is very much a function of the one again/ off again insanity that they give to those around them. It leaves you wondering who is real, the freak who lashes out or the sweet guy who brings you flowers after he lost it with you. I mean how can you hate someone who loves you so much He was just having a bad day, week, months. Maybe it is partly your fault because you ....
They play on our faults and iinsecurities and exploit us to keep us from leaving them. They know when they are about to push us too far and then they pull back but keep us off balance just enough to maintain control. Of course if we speak out we are the controlling ones etc. It is all really subtle and crazymaking.
The freak part is watching them from a distance and see them do it to someone else and then come back and try and do it to you again after you have healed some. My ex is trying to do it right now and man does it ever come across for what it is. He has been almost repeating things I have said word for word projecting things on me. The excuses and justifications and outright rage at me because I won't comply to his desires. Of course then I am the one hurting the children and hating him etc. I have to cooperate with him because I am not his mother etc. (Does he ever have mommy issues. I never got to know his mommy well enough to see the dynamic in action)
I am so happy that we are all able to move away from them and find life again. Living like that is like a living death. It might take us years to recover but atleast we have a chance. They are on to their next victims who are not so lucky.
They were trying to do it right with us too. I'm sure that most of us were not the first victim.
The problem is that the problem is with them and it continues to repeat itself and will continue to repeat itself throughout the life of the NPD. The problem will continue. The only thing that will change are the characters in the NPD's life.
Their personality disorder is just as predictable as the sorry's and the flowers after the lunatic fall-outs.
Thinking back, I am shocked at what I put up with and how long I put up with it. But like you, I felt sorry for him. "He must really love me.....Oh he did bring flowers......He's really trying.....I can tell he's really sorry THIS time....."
OMG. It went on and on.
What's weird is the cycle was almost like PMS. There was the honeymood stage and things were great, then slowly things would start to go downhill. Then at the end, a complete and total meltdown.
If there was a full moon, it was 10 times worse. That article is so on as far as them being like an alcoholic on 100 times worse. It's so true.
[This message edited by sadtoo at 4:15 PM, March 12th (Wednesday)]
Thanks for taking the POS off your hands, and sympathy for the hell she is sure to experience.
You are right, though. You are FREE and you are moving on to a better life!!!
You GO, girl!!!!!!
'If I called him at the office, he'd be mean & nasty; then he'd be sweet as pie when he arrived home'...or 'If he was sweet as pie when I spoke to him at the office, he'd be mean and nasty by the time he arrived home'.
I never had THIS experience with my N.
However, I had (seen/experienced) the inflated sense of self, the strutting & admiring of his 32 inch waistline, the "mirror hogging", the COLDNESS with people who were not "important" to further his means (i.e., wait people, cab drivers, etc.), power & control, hubris, & duping delight.
Oh, he was always very diligent, never has been late absent from his job one time in 4 years , always seeking strokes & N supply, no drug/alcohol abuse, & very capable-seeming.
But, the "brain washing" AKA Mind Fucking is omni-present.
The sociopathic lying is LEGENDARY as is the cold & calculating DECEIT.
Just to clarify. If one of the boys should be seriously hurt and they need to be rushed to the hospital or what have you, I am supposed to email you about it?
In the past you have not informed me of anything that goes on, eg hospital visits, school appt's etc. - only after it has happened you tell me.
Ok. I can do that but likely you won't be notified in a timely fashion since I will be attending to the children. I will respect your wishes but I want to be clear about the way you want us to communicate. I do not prevent you from seeing the children.
Yes you stop the boys from seeing me - all i hear is no you may not see your dad. This is untrue
You have arranged your life so that you don't have time for the boys. The hours i work are not of my choosing and I will NOT have you commenting on my job until I see you working the same or more at a job that is within a university degree's range. You are attacking me again and I will not have that either, stop attacking me. You picked the job and have no tried to find another one
If you want to see them you can email me (since that is your prefered method of communication) in advance and arrange visits.
You see a*** called me and arranged time with me i informed him he should talk to you since i have no control over the arranging. I have been home for 2 days now and no calls from the boys because you keep telling them no.
The boys were so excited about seeing you this week that they had off until you decided that I was not allowed to call you on your cellphone. You know that I need a way to be in contact while they are with you.
Again why do you want to speak with me - you usually have attacking comments and that to me is not neccessary, so it seems to me that you talking to me about the boys is one thing but you never seem to get to the point and tell me the things you need to say. you can say things very easy in an email. because i do not need your attitude - so take out the attitude and get to the point. By you not getting to the point you are taking up my time and you are controlling the situation - find yourself someone else that you can boss around ( it will not be me anymore ).
This is appropriate to any situation that the boys are away from home with anyone.
This is not about control and I do my best to cooperate with you. Any time I say anything that is in any way different that what you want to hear you attack me, scream at me and hang up on me. I communicate with you as infrequently as possible to avoid such abuse, which is clearly what you want. Having a relationship with the boys is up to you and that means that you have to put time into being with them, having them on visits and communicating with them.
The last few years your contact with them has deteriorate to the point where you see them a few hours a month if that.
Again your lack of understanding of where the problem is - stems from you giving me a hard time. (one moment your good the next your cold and i thought i was away from that when i left, i was misaken that you would have the best interest for the boys and not for yourself) again go find someone who is willing to take your crap and still be happy with you. (I KNOW HAPPINESS COMES FROM INSIDE BUT WHEN YOU ARE AT SOMEONE ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS ALL THE TIME ( WHY DON'T STOP LOOKING AT MY FAULTS AND DEAL WITH YOUR FAULTS MAYBE YOU WILL FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOU AND LEAVE ME ALONE)
Somehow working 4 days a week and living 6 blocks away still doesn't give you enough time to make an effort to be involved with your children. Don't blame your lack of involvement in their lives on anyone else. This failure to be a real father to them is yours and yours alone.
Your attacks continue as usual, i do not want to talk to you see you or hear about you - only about the boys and just the information about the boys and nothing to do with you. I know that is nasty but you do not seam to understand the situation at hand. I am not married to you BECAUSE ??????????. Because you screwed a barwhore and abused the children? You figure it out Lied2.
I hope you do get married someday and if you choose to marry again - do it with your eyes wide open. to some one you care for, and not just anyone.
So you have wasted the boys week so far. I never stopped you from communicating and email was the choosen form. If you need to tell me something about the boys - email is fine with me, You told me i can not just show up and take them out (structure you said) but you are so cold on the phone (yelling at the boys when i call to talk to them and you never seem to get to the point soon enough. So if the boys miss me and you are not stopping them i would like to see them tomorrow but if you stop that i can not see them again until mid april since dealing with you is to difficult......and that is the issue we have at hand......The last part was in huge font to yell at me.
Comments? Some of what he said hurts. I have no stopped him from seeing the kids when he has made arrangements. Once or twice in the last few YEARS he has tried to see them and other things were planned already so they boys couldn't see him. He won't see them during the week even for a few hours, why I have no idea. I don't make the kids call him and a few times I have had to redirect the boys while they are on the phone with him because they start banging things or bouncing because they have ADHD and he gets them wound up.
He is such a loon. How does he twist things around so badly. I must be off my tree to have ever married him.
I can’t tell you how “I mean how can you hate someone who loves you so much?” much that rings to me!
In your honor, my comments are:
Dear nutjob, you said, in bold;
”In the past you have not informed me of anything that goes on, ….only after it has happened you tell me.
I understand how that must pain you! When I fuck my next barfly, I’ll be sure to call you in the throes of passion, I wouldn’t want you to be….you know….”not informed of anything”. Wow! That would make you angry, huh?
Yes you stop the boys from seeing me - all i hear is no you may not see your dad.
All you hear? Oh no! Another sensory deficit! When did you find out about this hearing loss? Will you be applying for a handicap sticker soon? How painful it must be to you! On the boys’ “seeing you”; no fear! I’ve had their eyesight checked out, and they see you exactly for what you are. They were asking just yesterday when you’d stop shacking with barfly. Isn’t clear vision great? I thank God our boys are so perceptive!
The hours i work are not of my choosing
I understand how angry you must be when “The Great and Terrible Oz” chooses and controls things for you! Have you tried the heel-clicking thing?
I will NOT have you commenting on my job until I see you working the same or more at a job that is within a university degree's range. You are attacking me again and I will not have that either, stop attacking me.
O my! You will “not have”…what was it? Eggs? Biscuits? I forget. Anyway, I thought you’d “… seam to understand the situation…” if it was suggested that someone else, not you of course, could check the spelling on your duhgree?
i have no control over the arranging.
Yes, it’s so angering isn’t it? When the “Great and Terrible Oz” controls things so thoroughly?
Again why do you want to speak with me
“Again”, wait…what? hello? Yes… hi! Hang on…here, the fencepost wants to ask you something…what?...yes, I think it’s about the long line waiting to have an audience with “The Great and Terrible…” right…and the boring anger at it all…
By you not getting to the point you are taking up my time and you are controlling the situation –
Let’s see… then if I get to the point, I’m not controlling the situation? You must be so angry that your duhgree cost so much yet…
… you never seem to get to the point and tell me the things you need to say. … get to the point.
…you think, never? What would be the point if I had no “need” to say anything to you at all? Would “Fuck You!” suffice? That’s a good “point”, don’t you duhgree?
Again your lack of understanding of where the problem is - stems from you giving me a hard time.
“Again” are you going to L.A, or by bus?
…one moment your good
Your (sic) kidding! You gots a duhgree? Dayum, that must cause you sum pain, huh?
(I KNOW HAPPINESS COMES FROM INSIDE BUT WHEN YOU ARE AT SOMEONE ABOUT THE SMALLEST THINGS ALL THE TIME ( WHY DON'T STOP LOOKING AT MY FAULTS AND DEAL WITH YOUR FAULTS MAYBE YOU WILL FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOU AND LEAVE ME ALONE)
(Shhhh! … must be that hearing deficit) – don’t you just snicker when the hard-of-hearing shout? (Or is that cruel? Either way) it’s (parenthetically) emotionally challenged). Just wondering though, that duhgree – it was in pencil, right? Philosophy?
I am not married to you BECAUSE ??????????.
Don’t ask me! That’s why “your” (hehe) angry standing in line for the OZ-man. He knows and controls!
if you choose to marry again - do it with your eyes wide open. to some one you care for, and not just anyone.
I hope you cleared this advice with barfly first… AKA “just anyone”…and hey… since you like the open-eyed thing, I was thinking about posting your mugshot under “Fuktard Cheater”. That billboard on the way to work looks good…think some eyes would open then?
disclaimer: vicarious vents for tribe are free -
on "General", what? 5 bucks a pop?
[This message edited by jjct at 11:04 PM, March 12th (Wednesday)]
I was the one who got the degree last year. He is pissed about it because it makes me more educated than him. Instead he has now been taking potshots at me because I have not gotten a job in addition to caring for the 2 special needs kids alone and being a single parent with no help from him. Of course I should work full-time as well. Because I have not found a way to adequately balance it all I am is defective. How dare I criticise him because HE works 4 days a week. It makes him better than me don't you know.
I would love to call him in the throws of passion. That would get under his craw so bad. LOL Oh my. What a wonderful idea.
[This message edited by lied2 at 11:18 PM, March 12th (Wednesday)]
Fucking Fucktard*Asshats (SI Latin for fucking assholes). They really are all the same. He sounds like STBXPDW in his (mis)use of words, etc. What a projection. Assumes no responsibility. Blames you for everything. Ahh, the disordered.
I'm so sorry that he still exists in yours and the boys lives.
By the way, everyone knows my ex reads all my posts on SI. But, since I am feeling stronger I don't mind sharing! He can read it. I don't care. It's all true; he knows it and D is final! Hey asshole NPD! How's the manipulative, lying, ugly, mother-of-the-year, boob-less, fellow-NPD whore of yours doing these days? Still giving AMAZING head or is that dying down? What a freak -- but I guess you two are made for each other. You are SO stupid, ex, you know that. I am glad I am not malleable like you! I do not CHANGE my whole value system when I start fucking a new person. You are a SHELL of a real human being... you hang on to every word that stupid OW GOD-want-to-be says. She is manipulating you and you have no idea. You have NO sense of self. You are nobody.
Getting off my vent for a second -- I miss everyone here in the NPD thread! This whole Governor-NPD-Prostitute thing has renewed my anger at NPDs who think they are above the law. Above EVERYTHING. I'm up for a vent.
But let me have a "helpful" vent this time!
I want to tell you guys what is working for me right now...
What is "working" for me in handling D/visitation issues with NPD ex so far is the following:
1. I got most everything spelled out in the divorce decree about visitation issues. Every little thing. This is important when dealing with an NPD. You can't "assume" anything. I have in there when/where to drop-off and pick-up, that I want him to pick up/drop off at the school; not my house. I minimize ANY interaction I could possibly have with that psycho. But I always have a plan "B" in the case he doesn't show at his scheduled time - which has been "most" of the time. I document. I have the school document. If he doesn't show on time, the kids are no longer available for him by law. He can't come over a day or two into his visitation to get them. I am not a sitter at his convenience which was he did to me during separation. I had a fun trip with gal friends planned to Lake Tahoe several weeks ago. He decided not to take the kids the day before my trip even though it was his visitation weekend. It was hard, but instead of canceling my trip (which would have been the easiest thing to do), I put together "Plan B". I should have put together a "Plan B" weeks before (I knew he was selfish asshole!). Now I always have a Plan "B". Important in dealing with an NPD.
2) I tell everyone the "truth" about NPD ex when they ask... and maybe a bit when I am not asked. I do not protect him. I do not embellish. These vents to my friends are therapeutic to me. People form their own opinions based on HIS past actions; which are horrific. How this has helped me is that at special events (he's a "fair weather Dad" -- so he shows up at the FUN stuff like my DS's baseball games where he likes to take credit for DS's athletic prowess...) he stays AWAY from everyone at those events. No one will have anything to do with that creep. He gets looks and snarls from people constantly. It protects me. If he comes by to communicate (something snide or nasty) I will say "get the fuck away from me you crazy asshole"... I do not care if I make a scene. Everyone knows the deal. Shame hurts NPDs even though they will act like nothing can hurt them. They are above being hurt by mere mortals! But I think they still feel some shame.
3) I follow EVERY rule in the decree. I let him fuck up. He has. If we ever go back to court (which holier-than-thou NPDs like to do)... I have proof.
4) I have NO communication with him -- none. I'm LOVING IT. Our emails stopped when I stopped answering his nasty ones. We have nothing to talk about. We have it all spelled out in the decree. When I find out about something "horrible" he did and I want to VENT to him... I answer the phone when he calls and lay it on him and then hang up immediately. Most of the time I do not answer the phone when he calls EVER. The kids do. That is their right.
5) You should get all of your kids a cell phone. An NPD will find a way to "punish" you... like not letting the kids call you during his visits. A go-phone costs $14.99 at Walmart for like 200 minutes. My DD7 uses it just to talk to me during visitation. Then he does not have complete control over calls to me. And I know to answer the phone because it isn't him!
6) I hurt him a bunch by putting in the decree that his homewrecking-whore can not have any interactions with my kids until a year after the D. It goes both ways, though. But since I am only dating for fun and looking for nothing serious I doubt this clause will affect me at all. But he works until 6pm and getting the kids from school and going back to work isn't very "convenient" to him. The kids hate it, especially when they see a LARGE picture of ugly OW in his office. No pictures of his family; just OW. Great Dad, huh? My DD7 asks a LOT of questions about that!
7) Get it in your mind your ex is dead. If he comes back to life once in a while, it is GREAT for the kids. But he is basically dead to the family. Now YOU have the responsibility to do everything for the kids. Just do what you think is right. DO not rely on NPD for ANYTHING. Be independent. You are on your own - you can do it. The dead ex will show up once in a while and try to be super-dad. That's great. But it is just gravy; don't depend on it.
I now think of myself as a strong, single woman. A good role-model to my kids. If ex shows up once in awhile, great! But it doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. The kids know they are safe with me and have a real, loving, stable home to come home to. They are starting to feel it and they are all very happy. And I am REALLY happy!!!!!
Thanks for hearing out my vent!!!!
[This message edited by DD123 at 11:45 AM, March 15th (Saturday)]
"Women are like tea bags...you never know how strong they are until they are in hot water!!!"