I really think alot of the dysfunction is cause by their "brain damage" and no words or actions on our part can snape them out of it. Even with years and years of therapy it would always be a horrible struggle for anyone who stays with someone like this. You would always be the one to sacrific yourself to keep the relationship alive. I know that I had given up way too much of myself to continue. I had lost myself trying to keep him happy. When I did pull away to do what I wanted and needed he would tear me apart because he wanted to me at home in his "kingdom". He undermined my accomplishments as much as he could over the years and it was only once I left him that I have been able to really do what I wanted even though I have to care for my kids full-time alone.
Mark my words he will do a whole bunch more playing victim etc. and try to break you down. You will be the target if you move on with your life. He will try and undermine you in anyway he can. Don't let him.
Stay strong. In the end you will earn a measure of respect that you would never get by giving into their demands.
The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.
A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.
In your learning about the disorder, and from your real life observations; was there a DISSOCIATIVE DISORDER with your partner?
Backing up - my STXH was diagnosed SA in 95 but failed to do the program - many cycles of abuse followed til end 05 when I kicked his skinny butt out of my home...he gaslighted/game played through 06 and I've been 'clear headed' and managing the infrequent visits throughout 07 - final sale of home etc ... now I've gone absolutely NC since early Oct 07 and holding!
In the couple counseling my H dissociated severely while I was sharing some shameful behaviours he had done to the Psychologist. He definitely has NP traits...but not sure if he's full blown NPD
The Dissociative Disorder doesn't seem to feature too much in the posts here. My H was referring to himself in first person plural during the 'break' - in other words he called 'himself' WE...
Anyone help with this???
If you all ever feel like someone is standing behind you while you post/read here..that would be *me*.
I think about all of you all the time. I stepped back a bit to handle "things," and have become a professional lurker. But something is just bugging the CRAP out of me right now with WTFH....
Its been a hellaciously triggery month/six-weeks for me. WTFH's son first got caught going to a hotel to meet someone that he met on the INTERNET, but was thwarted by my DIL's stealthy behavior. *She* was the one he had responded to online, after she setup a profile when she discovered HIS !!!
After this event (end of Jan), she threw him out and he cried/begged/pleaded for a week or two until she allowed him back in the house.
Oh yeah, they have a 12yr old son ~ "grandboy."
After DIL's WH is allowed back in the house, they experience a wonderful "month." I'm sure they HB'd, etc., but all was heading back on track.
Three weeks ago, he (WTFH's Son), left them. Just told his wife that he needed to separate (of COURSE there was no one else involved!)..yeah, turns out he's boinkin' a young'un at work. Saw THAT coming a mile ahead!
Needless to say, I've been a proud referrer of "her" to SI, and have done whatever I COULD to help her. I couldn't care less that her husband is WTF's son ~ right is right, wrong is wrong. End the marriage if you're unhappy, before you try and get a "new" relationship.
The grandboy has been taking it hard, and I feel HORRIBLE for the kid. I offered to let him spend the night here whenever he wanted, and a couple of days ago, the DIL asked if he could spend the night Friday (tonight). Of COURSE we said "yes." (and then of COURSE, we get a buttload of snow ~ it IS Michigan after all).
Oh, another thing ~ the assclown son-in-law took the XBOX360 that he "shared" with grandboy. What a schmuck.
WTFH has an XBOX360, so I thought it would be great to have the kid overnight, let him play Xbox till his fingers fall off and, whatever...
We get back here at about 7:30pm, and WTF just HAS to watch the movie he bought. Grandboy thought it was okay. I *of course* made him (grandboy) decorate Easter eggs (he's done that here before).
After the movie, WTF turns on the freaking HISTORY channel (as if a grandboy is going to be just *fascinated* with what-ta-fuck-ever).
Grandboy asks WTF if he can use his computer. WTF says "Its locked," and nothing more. End of story there, I guess.
THEN...at about 11:00pm ~ WTF goes into his office to do god knows WHAT on his computer, and grandboy is sitting there on the couch just WISHING he could play an XBOX game. I know this because I think like a 12-yr old boy.
I also know that WTF is THE MOST unapproachable person on the planet. There is no caring, no consideration, absolutely NOTHING *warm and fuzzy* about WTF. He makes no secret of the fact that he expects kids and all 'others' to bow in his glory.
He just doesn't "get" that there is not ONE CHILD in the universe that is comfortable around him. Its truly sickening, and I have talked about how much compassion I have for his SEVEN children here before.
SO...........(yeah, I'm just rambling here because I have no one else that would understand).
I finally speak up and say "Can grandboy play XBOX?" WTF replies: "I don't know, he hasn't asked."
I'm like, HUH? He knows PERFECTLY well that the kid has had one HELLUVA three weeks ~ his father freaking ABANDONED him, took his Xbox360, and the kid could use a little freaking COMPASSION.
WHAT a jackass.
WTF went on to add: "Grandboy ~ if you'd like to do something, YOU NEED TO ASK."
I wanted to freaking kill him.
I could not believe that he was sitting in his office, WAITING for the kid to ASK him if he could play Xbox. He wouldn't OFFER to piss on him if he were on fire, without being "asked." He had told the kid earlier in the evening that he couldn't use his computer because "it is locked." Apparently, there was no key.
I guess he wants to be the 'granter' of all wishes: "yes, my child, you CAN play the Xbox games."
<insert puke here>
I know "they" are insensitive to others, I know "they" are assclowns...I am just absolutely SICKENED by the effect their behavior has on kids. I've seen "first hand" the damage they inflict and I just wish I could intervene more effectively.
I cannot STAND that he is completely unable to WANT to 'care for' other people.
So if any of you 'newcomers' here at the NPD playground have kids, I completely "feel" for ya. They never change, they never SEE outside themselves ~ no matter WHAT they "say." They do not understand the family circle, nor do they have any desire to do so.
Even when a grandboy has been devastated by the breakup of his own family, they will not be a "safe place to land."
[This message edited by cjonesjag at 8:23 AM, March 22nd (Saturday)]
Counceling with my ex was difficult at best. The Psychiatrist had close to 5 years of counceling with him and finally told me to leave because he was not going to get better. We had alot of counceling for the marriage as well. He had a way of twisting things so that he could get out of doing and real work on the relationship. I can clearly remember him convincing the one set of marriage councelors that our marriage would be so much better if I was just a better wife and did more for him. etc.
Personality disorder have a whole pile of crazy actions that occur. They can really vary based on the situation and the disorder that the person has. Many times there is more going on than just a personality disorder.
At some point I just stopped asking why he does some things. He came from a really bad childhood. He is a jerk and makes choices to hurt people and doesn't give a crap who he hurts or how. I am thankful daily I am no longer married to him and do my best to heal and move on to make a better life for me and my children.
It certainly is a heck of a lot easier with time/space in stepping away from the relationship to see the hugely damaging behaviours.
I don't know if my H has lost time - he sure has a vague memory of many things but that is probably dissociating from a guilty conscience: playing 'Let's pretend' I do remember him often saying he couldn't remember certain people and events, and if I gave the story (provided the memory) he would look absolutely blank!
What I wondered is if Dissociative Disorder is common in NPD
H was adopted when he was around 6 or 8 mo. My FIL was an adoring father that couldn't see any wrong in his S he pampered him all his live. H needs constant reasurance I mean is sickening, he even stops at the middle of a sentence and says chopper? so I can comment on whatever he is saying. He is very attentive to people because he needs to be adored, I'm mean everyone thinks he is the best thing ever!!!! But he has been an invisible entity in out M and kids lives. S was active in karate tournaments, he was very good and had lots of trophies, bu H couldn't bother to go to the tournaments, he always had to work or he didn't feel comfortable in large crowds!!!
He does things like surprising me with a trip for my birthday or something, but the whole world has to know what he gave me and what a good husband he is. (Somehow this diminishes the thought for me)
He won't take responsibility for the consequences the A had brought and when I point them he is offended that I'm always blaming him for everything. He is always making me appear as the bad, mean one in front of every single friend and family around!!
He is immature to the point of pretending to be a 3 yo child sometimes, he drives our kids nuts.
He thinks everyone envies him for having people skills and having good clients (he is a helicopter pilot).
He enjoys name calling and pointing out peoples flaws.
N has been pissing me off ...what is new? UGGGG
I'm being good to ME & playing on jango to tune him out.
Happy Easter, Tribe!
My XH was a lot like that, esp. when he was drinking & smoking weed. It was sheer Hell!
It was a disastrous combo of mind altering substances & gross immaturity.
However, he was, bottom line, a very kind person who would give a person the shirt off his back, so to speak...after he grew up/sobered up/quit doing weed, he became my best friend in many ways through out the years.
My N is entirely a very different "creature"!
There is much one can read about the symptoms of NPD and yet exactly this can be more than confusing, and you might find yourself going through a checklist of symptoms in order to arrive at some conclusion. However, the list above should give you some idea. Still, there is another element which is just as important and this quite possibly the most important item for you to look at:
Look at yourself and ask yourself how you feel and whether you are the person you once were and knew. If you live with a narcissist, you will develop a cluster of negative feelings centered around the emotion of fear and an image of inadequacy. This self image of being inadequate then will be due to a change in self perception. This is, it is a cognitive concept that you are not familiar with and which is in contrast to how you used to see yourself. Clearly, such a negative self image will have serious effects on the way you feel and behave. The dominant feeling is, as alluded to, fear. Fear of doing things wrong and fear of being punished. And thus, the way you behave too will become modified whereby you will watch your every move and where your actions become unnatural to yourself.
The issue is - in a sense - more complicated. Because, all of us have negative feelings and concepts about ourselves even if we never encountered a narcissist. So in this sense, what the narcissist does is to build on the already existing negative self images and enlarge them to a maximum. The situation is even worse because we are aware of short comings in ourselves. This is where the narcissist is most successful. The narcissist will endeavor to increase these short comings. I may give a personal example: once, I gave up smoking, the narcissist exercised so much pressure on me until I started again (I still smoke sometimes). The narcissist would really like to see you in the gutter.
However, if you see that you have substantially changed for the worse you can be sure that you are living with a narcissist, and a check list is not necessary any longer.
Many positive thoughts.
Ah, but she can't take you any way
You don't already know how to go ~ Eagles
Once again, reading the posts here has sent me off on an hour-long wandering fugue. So if this rambles, I apologize.
It took me that long to hit the "post reply" button, and start writing - untangling, I think, the complex emotions and thoughts that arise, and I decided to go ahead and share some thoughts...make that risk sharing.
The risk being that some of what I say will cause a similar reaction in you, and I hope I can say something good, and not do harm, further harm - to the wounded and oft- persecuted ones here.
For instance (I'll start good) jonesy!!!! Do you know someone smiles every time *he* comes into the NPD playground because of your swingin-thing at the beginning?
Probably the biggest, hardest trigger to deal with is what these people - are these real people? - do to children. Can you bring WTF to the playground next time so I can beat his ass?
I'm beginning to accept that I will never be the same, yet...yet! I refuse to be, to remain useless and broken. I think I've been made, or am going through some crazy, I'm trying to turn it into something good and beautiful and useful and helpful. Even if it's sometimes disappearing into screeds of poetry, containing their own flavor of fugue - make that dissociative fugue -
I'm determined to figure it out, make sense of it all, and use it - for all those good things. The tough part is going "through" all of it - to understand it, to taste it, so that I can then try to describe the taste and the experience(s).
Now, isn't that interesting? We already know that part of the difficulty is that each of us has a little narcissism, and it's one hell of a journey coming to the end of that fun little rollercoaster - and being able to truly say; "Nope, I don't have it- the disorder. Nope. Not me. I'm not crazy - (and, shew! that was close!)."
Similarly, here are my fingers! Typing out the journey from disassociation-land! Right? What one of us does not employ disassociation in healthy ways?
Therefore, things - disorders, can be had by degrees.
we have qualities, behaviors -
but not disorders.
Narcissists are disassociated.
-from empathy. (for one thing!)
Their elaborate, false-self construction is performed with scintillating care and attention to detail precisely because they need to disassociate from the real self. The ugly self. The hidden self. The unworthy (low self esteem) self.
My WTF (oh that's a good one cj!) would descend into what we'd call the "dead zone", or "the zone". So thanks to kiwi - I now have the name of it.
I remember how *big* it was for me, when I first got here - and learned the name of the behaviors, the disorder I was dealing with. I believe my healing began, or at least really accelerated then - and I'm at the point of beginning to accept the "ok, so what? I'm a little broken, a little damaged, strangely changed" - new me.
I embrace the new me in poetry, in fact. In stories. In *happy thoughts* well, I think that's the stories - the poetry's a little closer to the bone.
What's also close to the bone, too close if truth be told - are the things that happened in the 'zone', or things that caused the zone to occur.
Another 15 minutes go by -
"I have seen the eternal footman hold my coat and snicker, and in short,
I was afraid." TS Eliot
The things. I am not ready. My eyes start filling, my fingers start pounding. I'm sure, and I think it's a good thing - it can be a good thing, real good -
I think I'm hysterically cyber-bonding.
(((((Tribe)))) you know?
The things. Good then, here's a thing from just another wandering asshole. Perfect for the day. These things? These memories? I need me some of dis associative! I'll take mine straight up, here at Ishtar's Bar n' Grill.
A couple Semiramis Sliders, first,
then a side of the
and the Tammuz Tortillas.
Then, uhhh, how 'bout; "Get thee behind me" ?
You are lovers. We are, dammit!
I want to be the guy that drops into your life anonymously, whisks you away in a limo, and plops you down into a wonderful castle-
that way, we can all quit crying because of attics and steaming toast for kitchen heat, children that can't even play.
I cried in church yesterday.
Silent tears running.
Gripping my hands real hard so my shoulders wouldn't shake. Holding real still so no one *sees*.
Narcissists with Dissociative behaviors?
THE most dangerous people on the planet. No. You're right. There's not enough prozac.
Get a bicycle, get a horse, get a Harley -
only if you can't get a fuckin jet.
What is sad is that through all of this I have been this big brave person on the outside but his threats have had me scared. He knows that the kids mean the world to me and that they are the key to my worst fears. So he uses them against me. I also have to watch what I do or say around him anymore because I never know what will piss him off and start a fight. I think that is the biggest reason I didn't say much about the porn for a long time. Besides my mom I am probably the most outspoken person in our family and here I am afraid to really say anything I do. When I do say something I am always scared of what his reaction is going to be even though I do sometimes give him a peace of my mind.
I'm diabetic, last weekend we get into this huge fight and it was one huge rollercoaster ride and mind games. He kept telling me he was leaving and actually packed his bags and put them in the truck. Then of course he changes his mind. Later that night, he tries to start fighting again and I tell him that I am not doing it anymore because my blood sugar was sky high from the stress. He looks at me and says " then don't stress".
Been hanging around the Buddhist Temple a lot and getting my learn on. Buddhisn seems to offer, from a "way of life" point of view, many things to help alleviate and move beyond the "NPD Freak" exposure. I do find it very helpful.
I hang out with the guys from Church for a Bible Study also. And Sunday services. And taking a counseling course thru the Church. Much learn on there also.
Using a new version of a software package that I teach, that is quite different from previous versions in layout and functionallity. Ouch, to say the least. Also been writing a bunch of music. PM me should you like a copy.
Haven't been to the Buddhist Thearipist/Former Monk for awhile. I miss him. He's a really awesome Dude. I see my Christian Pastor/Counselor/Trainer/Life Coach/Friend/Teacher at Church and Bible Study and chat on the phone.
My kids rock !!! I got them some girly magazine Bibles that they really dig. Lied, there are boy versions also. The girls are Blossom and Revolve for different age groups, DD13&9. DDs really like them. Cool.
STBXPDW remains unskillful (Buddhism), royally messed up (Politically Correct), or more commonly reffered to as"Evil" as always. The usual horse hockey.
So that's the BoB Report (Thanks JJCT).
I hope all are well.
Newbies, the more you move beyond the chaos, the more you learn, and the more time under the bridge, the more you will come to realize that the PDs truly are freaks and abberations to all that is wholesome and skillful (Buddhist for that which is good. LOL.).
Run, don't walk away. You are not the problem. They are. They just have your head in a blender. Turn the blender off.
Second of all, my husband has done things and not accepted responsibility for them, claims not to remember them, and will become very indignant when all of the witnesses say that he did. That's also a symptom of several other disorders; borderlines are notorious for this. It's also possible that he is lying about not remembering, plain and simple.
I would avoid trying to diagnose him; that's what a psychiatrist should do. Your question should be whether you want to live that way for the rest of your life or not, because there is a very good chance that it is incurable.