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User Topic: Long Term Affairs -IX
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 5:40 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A pillow with a photo. Hmm. Way to tame. Sometimes, I think Id like to be in a sound-proof room with him. Im not a yeller or screamer (too buttoned down for that), but if I thought no one could hear, Id go for the real thing and scream and rant and rail and hit and slap and push and beat up until I was an exhausted heap on the floor. He could take it. Hes 62, over 16 stone (about 225lb, 104kg) and an ex-rugby player, so its not as if I could do anything to him other than a few bruises. Im 56 and a little over half his weight. Yeh, gimme that any day.

I am trying to get some interest in this house of mine and finally put the finishing touches to the decorating that was done in June 06!!! And buy a new rug cos I burnt the current one when I emptied the too-hot ashes from the fire. Oops! So I'm shopping today too.

Get yourself some colour, LostH. How about RED? I got my red undies on and a red camisole top under my grey V-neck.

No metaphors today. Just continuing to stroll across this plain.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 5:42 AM, February 28th (Thursday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 6:29 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So everyone's talking about their "escape" module and I just made a $30K investment. I deposited my severance check in the bank yesterday. I did keep a little back for myself, but that's it. Now it's community property.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 6:57 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all,
I've been puzzling over something for a while now and thought i'd put try and put it out here and see what y'all think. Hope it makes sense.
My H's self esteem has always been less than zero (FOO issues) Any woman that was nice to him automatically became a wonderful person. Flatter and praise him and he was in love. OW did this in a spectacular way, sexually and otherwise. So, he thinks he's in love , tells her so, and although he's planning on leaving he says he didn't speak of it to her. She dumps him before he gets the chance. He feels immense relief.yada,yada. What i'm struggling with is this, if as in most of these cases the WS needs to think it was love as opposed to, if it wasn't love, who was that scumbag in the car. (to qoute OTC) Why was he also telling himself all along that, no it's not love, i'm just here for the sex ? How does thinking he was in love and trying to tell himself he wasn't at the same time fit this theory? It confuses me terribly but i'm hoping you guys might be able to shed some light. Thanks tribe.

OH, and you buttoned down UK? Don't believe it.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:35 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mig, the dilemna. Funny that we are the ones who have to figure this out in order to live with them, but they can do it and live with themselves quite nicely.

My H has always maintained (to me) that his affairs were about nothing but sex. That is obvious when you look at the fact that he was also keeping company with prostitutes. But the LTAP?

He said in his mind when he saw her he told himself it was sex, she was like any of the other whores. But she was one he got to know well enough that he grieved for her when she died... supposedly 4 years after ending the affair. I asked him at the time if he'd gone to one of the "houses" and asked for someone he'd had before and found out she was dead, would he ask for her parent's phone number to offer his condolences or would he have just said "oh well, I'll take her then."

Rationalization (and I love this definition) are lies you tell yourself to make yourself feel better or to be able to live with yourself.

So while he was screwing her, he was thinking "this must be love or I wouldn't be doing this" and while he wasn't, she was just sex because he was with you. As my H put it, "he was whoever he thought he should be at that particular moment in time". He was merely an actor walking through his life.

That and compartmentalization. The ability to shut out certain parts of themselves or their life from other parts. That way they didn't have to think about her while he was with you, or you while he was with her. OTC put up a link a while back, probably in the last thread, that explains it perfectly. How they can do it, and why we don't understand.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Weepy,
that helps more than you know, kinda like you clarified my own thoughts. I'm mostly confused by the fact that this IS how he defined love, i do think he thought he was in love with her, he said he felt worse about feeling he was in love than about the sex, so i guess it follows that to make himself feel better about that he kept telling himself that it was only sex. OK, i get that , BUT, does that mean then that he believed he was in love as opposed to needing to believe it? What are your thoughts on that? Please, i would love to hear them.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:12 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

does that mean then that he believed he was in love as opposed to needing to believe it?

No, that's the beauty of rationalization. He believed it because he NEEDED to believe it.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
marigold
♀ Member
Member # 6707
Default  Posted: 8:13 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all,

I want to thank everyone for their support yesterday. I am feeling so much better today. Still, I think I will look into EMDR or some such therapy because I have to find a way to stop the rage monster from sneaking out when I'm not looking.

Hugs to all of you.


Posts: 960 | Registered: Mar 2005
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy,
I guess i'm almost afraid to believe that knowing that's what he beieved love was, you know approval, flattery and praise. Having lived in denial for so long I suppose i am afraid i'm deluding myself and that he really was in love with her, as what his definition of love was anyway.
I guess that scares us all, trusting ourselves again.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
marigold
♀ Member
Member # 6707
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MIG,

I think that a lot of the in love, butterflies type feeling does come from that kind of stuff. But I'm cynical enough that I tend to think that being "in love" is really about being in love with yourself. The other person makes you feel good, so you are "in love." Real love has to do with shared values and vision, trust, respect and well, I'm going to add compassion because we all have weaknesses as well.

For the most part, I think being "in love" is just hormones and vanity talking.


Posts: 960 | Registered: Mar 2005
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thankyou Marigold, and Welcome (back ?)

Real love has to do with shared values and vision, trust, respect and well, I'm going to add compassion because we all have weaknesses as well.

I do agree with you of course, but i'm struggling, in vain i think, to understand how he saw it. His childhood was so screwed up that he only ever knew , approval & praise = love & acceptance. That being so i'm afraid he won't ever be able to untangle it completely and i can't go forward with him believing in a secret part of him that he did indeed love her.
Oh hell, this has screwed my head up so bad that right now i'm wondering if i am posting this because i really want someone to tell me didn't really love her. God i hate this .


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
marigold
♀ Member
Member # 6707
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"i can't go forward with him believing in a secret part of him that he did indeed love her. "


Yeah, I understand that. No fond memories wanted.

[This message edited by marigold at 9:23 AM, February 28th (Thursday)]


Posts: 960 | Registered: Mar 2005
heftysmurf
♂ Member
Member # 17080
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It appears a lot of us are in the same place.

Monday and the NC violations and the total BS that has gone on for almost 4 mos after D-day has been very damaging.

No sympathy implied but it is very hard for a WS in an LTA to do what needs to be done consistantly after the A. My WS did well for 3 weeks and then acted so painful to me. Too many new hurts to list here.

I am still very hurt inside and likely will be for a LONG time. I will not let the pain however run my life.

I can understand why changes in our WS are questioned. As of last Monday my spouse was still testing the boundries and doing new hurts to me. In reality I let go a bit before this and it did not really hurt me. I expected it.

Now that our WS are doing the right things is it enough? I think we need to take the ride and observe. If it can be consistent for a LONG period of time maybe we can have the M we (WS, LTA Tribe, myself) always dreamed of? We have been waiting for this and need to accept it if it does happen.

I already know besides the boundries what our biggest issue is to saving our M. The aggresive behavior of my wife. I have known that even before d-day but never thought of ending the M because I was loyal as hell, in love despite this, and happy to have a complete family for my DD. The anger is the number one thing my wife needs to work on. That is the key to saving our M.

I am working hard on myself to make me the best person I can be. The A was a wake up call of sorts for problems I was having with me. Some of these contributed to the relationship problems but wow I am amazed at myself at times for coming a long way. I am still a work in progress and I think everyone is for their entire lives.

I am strong now and cannot accept anymore violations of trust. It took me 3+ months to gather the strength to get to this point. No looking back. I have made that as clear as I could to my wife.

As for my wife I am taking stock and observing. She wrote a new NC letter (still in progress), sent me a simple I love you email, and this one suprised me wanted to go away for a weekend as I had wanted to do last weekend. These actions made me feel loved. This is forward progress. It gives me hope again and I thank her for it.

Maybe I am in R now? Too soon to tell but I am going to take the ride and hope that we make it together to the other side.

[This message edited by heftysmurf at 9:29 AM, February 28th (Thursday)]


BH-Me- 34 WW-Her- 29
D-Day- 11-04-07
M 6 years Together 12 years
2 YR DD WOW I love her!
LTA 6 YEARS - stolen time
Limbo. Praying for DD and our M.
In ridiculous pain. Amazed I can stand.

Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: New York
hurtbuthappy
♀ Member
Member # 14539
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That being so i'm afraid he won't ever be able to untangle it completely and i can't go forward with him believing in a secret part of him that he did indeed love her.
Oh hell, this has screwed my head up so bad that right now i'm wondering if i am posting this because i really want someone to tell me didn't really love her. God i hate this .

I hate it to MIG. I'm sorry I can't tell you he didn't really love her. He may have in his own way at the time.

In my case I know WH does believe he loved her. He was in the A for the feel good part of it. She said and did all the things he needed to feel good about himself. And it wasn't just the sex. That came later after the intense friendship was in place.

H said something in MC the other day that I am still pondering. He told MC that OW was his BS. She was the me he wanted, needed and didn't feel he had anymore. I can't quite rap my mind around this one, but she was giving him what he needed to feel great about himself and that felt like love to him. And he cared deeply for her because of this. Now, he says he knows he was manipulated and he didn't really know who she was at all. She was who he wanted me to be.

Funny since I am now struggling with question of if I know who he really is or am I seeing him as I want him to be.

Not sure if that helps, but I know there are others here that WS's did love the OP and were still able to let go and are trying to R. Some successfully. My case remains to be seen.


M-25 years
2 kids

Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2007
hurtbuthappy
♀ Member
Member # 14539
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostHeart - Good luck at the new job. I was a SAHM for 13 years and got a parttime job right before DDay #1. I loved looking for a few new clothes and getting back out there. Don't make much money and couldn't support myself on it, but it is an independence I hadn't felt in a long time. You have way more backbone than you give yourself credit for. I always read and reread your posts to others and myself. You have alot of insight and are able to articulate things so well. Do Not let him tell you otherwise.

Hefty - You have come such a long ways. You sound great and I am glad WS is doing the work that needs to be done. Keep thanking her for the positive steps she is taking and hopefully she will remain on that path.


M-25 years
2 kids

Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2007
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks HBH, you know i find it so strange how alike they all seem to be , my H has said almost the exact words your H did.
She was who he wanted me to be.


He said , crudely, but i sensed his frustration in trying to express it, that he wanted to put her words in my mouth.

she was giving him what he needed to feel great about himself and that felt like love to him. And he cared deeply for her because of this.

There was also something along these lines from my H also and i remember thinking , that sounds more like he felt deeply grateful to her than cared deeply for her. Had that occured to you as well?
Lord my brain is always in a knot.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mindisgone,

Having lived in denial for so long I suppose i am afraid i'm deluding myself and that he really was in love with her,

I was one of those whose WH "loved" the OW. In the beginning he said he loved her, but in the past 2 1/2 years he has come to know that it was *not* love. The OW fills a need or void that our FWH's had within themselves. If they felt neglected by us as their spouse, they also lacked the skills to cope with that. Alas, they turned to the OW. that was THEIR inadequacies/dysfunction, not ours. Yes, we own what happens in the M, but our spouses lacked the self-esteem or other mechanisms to deal with the feelings of rejection or whatever they were experiencing. That did not give them the right to cheat.

The bottom line is that if these FWH's wanted to be with their OW because they "loved" them, they really and truly would have left us for them. For some, our WW spouses are still in the fog. My H was there, too, breifly. He couldn't just shut off his feelings for OW right away, though he maintained NC. It was only after a period of NC that he realized how screwed up SHE was and HE was. For those struggling with this issue, I just wanted to say there IS hope. My H went from someone after dday who was worried about "abandoning" the OW as a "friend" to someone who basically never thinks of OW, and when he does it just brings shame & feelings of regret.

Hugs to all who are struggling.....


HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I try to think of it more as an obsession than "feelings".

Many here have described it as gorging themselves on fat, chocolate, alcohol, salt. It's that fleeting a pleasure.

What's the saying "a moment on the lips = a lifetime on the hips"?

I absolutely hate my body, but I made it. At the time (A time and after Dday) that ice cream or cookies or cake tasted wonderful. It gave me a boost of energy or comfort AT THAT MOMENT. And now I've spent a 15 years cursing my "need" for it. I LOVED it.

When I went on Atkins (NC) and stuck to it religiously, I lost that craving for the sugar. I started exercising and loving ME. The weight literally fell off me. I felt better about myself than I had in forever.

I imagine the WS is the same way. NC is absolutely awful at first. The "fix" is gone. Where will we get that love, that comfort, that sweetness? Then they realize they feel better about themselves as people. They have a little dignity back and can breathe easier.

Meanwhile we see that as getting to feel good when we feel so awful and drag them right back into that self-loathing. I think this is why NC is broken so often with these guys. They're right back in the same pattern and trying to self-soothe in the midst of the worst trauma of their lives and they aren't equipped to handle it.

I hate when my H is all self-assured and confident and happy. I wonder how he can be that way after what he's done, who he's hurt, the damage. But part of me realizes that if they don't start to love themselves a little, they'll never be able to give or show us the love we so desperately need after this mess.

I know I've rambled a little there, but did I make my point after all that?


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtbuthappy
♀ Member
Member # 14539
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Meanwhile we see that as getting to feel good when we feel so awful and drag them right back into that self-loathing. I think this is why NC is broken so often with these guys. They're right back in the same pattern and trying to self-soothe in the midst of the worst trauma of their lives and they aren't equipped to handle it.

This is exeactly what my H has been saying. (or close) He says when I am feeling miserable he feels such guilt that he feels like he needs to make sure OW is ok. If she is OK then maybe he can let go of the guilt on her part and work on us. REreading that, it makes no sense.

But his guilt is so intense he is trying to let some of it go so he can move forward. I don't think he knows how to do this and needs the selfsoothing to go forward. He admitted to MC it was a f**ked up thing to do. Weepy did help me understand this alittle more, just can't explain it well.

Thanks again to all for your insight. We really do all have many similarities. It is eerie sometimes that our WS's are so alike.


M-25 years
2 kids

Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2007
hurtbuthappy
♀ Member
Member # 14539
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HB - THANKS!! You give me hope.


M-25 years
2 kids

Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, February 28th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hefty, you are sounding stronger day by day. Good for you, and ultimately, this would be, I believe, good for your family.
You laid down the conditions, your W, as an adult, needs to mind them, or bear the consequences, as an adult. You can not rescue her or give her a break this time, Hefty. Stand your ground. You will all be better off for it. Good luck.

****
Mig...the "did he really love her" dilemma.
You have no idea how I battled with this one, for both OW. And it took me a long long time before I made peace with the fact that yes, H did "love" her (OW2), but it was not love as we know it. He loved how she made him feel, he loved what she did to satisfy him.Ask him what her favourite colour, her favourite movie, food, music, a fond childhood memory, who she wanted to grow up to be...and the man knows F-all. It was all about him.
He used her and made her do some disgusting things to him, She did it without a blink. If I didnt know how she used him in turn, I might even feel some pity for her.
So when they talk of love, MIG, its seldom love as we know it. Thank God.

***
HBH, Its kind of a twisted compliment that he was looking for you in OW.

She was who he wanted me to be.

Thats sounds awful, but going forward, this can be something good HBH. Unless he wanted some right out freakshow, this is a workable issue. Maybe not now, but when you are ready. What was it that he wanted? More affection, more footrubs, more cookies? Its something that you both can compromise on, KWIM? A very workable issue.

Oh, and thank you for the kind thoughts.

***

I know I've rambled a little there, but did I make my point after all that?

ALOT of sense, Weepy. Esp about the part about them (WS) needing to feel good about themselves.

Btw, good for you for keeping some money away for you. OPen up another account, put into something that will slowly grow bigger.And DO NOT touch it unless absolutely necessary!!!


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
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