Cheating Hurt by Infidelity
Betrayal Wayward Donations lying
Welcome

Forums

Guidelines

Find a Local Counselor

The Healing Library

Media

Contact Us
lies
cover
In Association with Amazon.com
Support
Infidelity -
-
Find a Local Couselor
You are not logged in. Login here or register.
[Register]
Newest Member: amanda123 (43207)

I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affaris - X
brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This really is my problem. Whenever I stop by here I want to reply to all the thought-provoking posts, but I'm flying by right now.

I know that this is not a very popular opinion in some quarters, but I think many WS have affairs because they knew exactly this -- that they had all of us. In fact, I think that is part of why they chose us as their spouses to begin with, because they knew that we were loyal TO A FAULT. And the fault here, of course, is that our loyalty to them trumped our loyalty to ourselves. And our love for them trumped our love for ourselves.

I see this. I also see the ways in which I completely enabled him in this. I was so caught up in being the perfect wife, mother (and that to my H as well as my children), everything to everyone except myself, that I couldn't have made it easier if I'd tried. It's funny, but after d-day, when everything was just a giant hazy blur of awfulness, I kept coming back to the thought that the A had in some way been a way to test whether he actually had the unconditional love from me he'd never had from his mother.

I accept that we can't change the past but I'm not sure that that means we shouldn't attempt to understand the past and to learn from it. I know that's not what you're trying to say but until I can feel that something substantial has been learned from his actions during those years, and from my own actions, I don't think I will be ready to move on.

I think we have to try to understand the past and learn from it or pretty much everything we do is useless. In the case of any A, but particularly an LTA, I don't think there's any recovery without that.

How does one learn to stand still and "let" things happen? Yes, even though on is not really "making" things happen, how do you get rid of the "illusion" that you are in control of the outcome?

How do you actually LET.GO?

Oh, well, I wish I could say there's a magic recipe. Mix one part patience, two parts deep breathing, a third of a cup of understanding, but there's not. And if I'm going to be honest, I'll have to admit that it's an imperfect science for me. Definitely not what comes naturally. But you can learn, I think, to let yourself off the hook for always being responsible for the outcome and try to be in the moment. Betrayal is hard. It sucks. But who my H is now is much more important to me than who he was then. Will he cheat again? I don't think so (but then I didn't think he would in the first place). I certainly didn't want him to. But not wanting him to didn't stop him. Just as spending all my time trying to have control over what happens to me in my future doesn't actually give me control--just keeps my from enjoying my present.

Ok, off to exert a little control over the few things in my life I have some over. Like whether the dog sleeps on my newly upholstered goose down sofa .

[This message edited by brooke4 at 6:11 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here is an interesting twist to this discussion that came on this week in his IC and our MC. He actually was envious of me, of my success, of what he perceived to be my talents. Any time in his life he saw someone who was more successful, he secretely wanted them to fail. With me, he was given the opportunity to help that "failure" along. He admits that, definitely, on a subconsious level but also, to some extent, on a conscious level he was competing with me and wasn't above cheating to win (notice how nicely the word cheating turns both ways in this context ).

I am still digesting this litte tidbit from him. His need to destroy anything around him that he feels he deserves but isn't willing to either work for or risk trying to achieve. This is one part of him that, I believe, will be very difficult to change and is integral to him being capable of truly sharing any existence with another.

The downside of the fully remorseful H is you learn this kind of crap in C and think 'what the fuck, we were supposed to be on the same team not tearing each other down"!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But what really, really helped is learning why I did what I did during those years (and before and after). Why did I make those decisions that I made. Why was I afraid to do more than just voice my objections to things he did or didn't do. What were the fears that limited me or drove me? What were the options I was too frightened or ignorant to consider?

BT - I can definitely spend some more time on this. What were my fears? Was it only having the two babies on my own, working more than full time in a high stress industry and managing everything else didn't give me the time to consider my options? Or, was I afraid and, if so, of what? Food for thought while dog walking. Meanwhile, need a new IC. I like mine but I need more firepower.

I see this. I also see the ways in which I completely enabled him in this. I was so caught up in being the perfect wife, mother (and that to my H as well as my children), everything to everyone except myself, that I couldn't have made it easier if I'd tried. It's funny, but after d-day, when everything was just a giant hazy blur of awfulness, I kept coming back to the thought that the A had in some way been a way to test whether he actually had the unconditional love from me he'd never had from his mother.

OMG - I never thought of that. Do you think they may have been testing us. I mean not on the surface but way down deep. My H's mom never loved anybody not even herself. She is awful. She is the source of much of his issues. Holy Shit this struck a chord. Gotta think about this!

Ok, off to exert a little control over the few things in my life I have some over. Like whether the dog sleeps on my newly upholstered goose down sofa .

Thanks for making me laugh. Yeah, that's the level of control we have in our lives. No wonder I love having a dog or I would have no control at all.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I kept coming back to the thought that the A had in some way been a way to test whether he actually had the unconditional love from me he'd never had from his mother.

He actually was envious of me, of my success, of what he perceived to be my talents. Any time in his life he saw someone who was more successful, he secretely wanted them to fail. With me, he was given the opportunity to help that "failure" along. He admits that, definitely, on a subconsious level but also, to some extent, on a conscious level he was competing with me and wasn't above cheating to win

His need to destroy anything around him that he feels he deserves but isn't willing to either work for or risk trying to achieve.

I see this as all part of not having love for himself. Being "better than" is how he got his self-worth. He didn't love himself enough or believe in himself enough--or have enough trust in others to love him--unless he felt he was the best, most successful, whatever...

This is one part of him that, I believe, will be very difficult to change and is integral to him being capable of truly sharing any existence with another.

I'll bet this will not be hard for him to change once he gets his validation from within.

[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 7:00 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I see this as all part of not having love for himself. Being "better than" is how he got his self-worth.

Run - he is working on this. When he first confessed, he talked about how the OW made him feel wanted, needed, strong, smart, whatever. He at least has reached enough self-knowledge to see that was bullshit.

If your mother never loved you, if love in your family means abuse, if you have never loved yourself, how do you learn? He says he never even knew what love "felt" like. God, if I didn't hate him so much, I would feel sorry for him.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 4:31 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning all.

Great conversation going on in the last few pages. Almost every post had me sticking my hand up, "Me too!".

Thank you all for sharing.

Brooke on Mr Ukg

Oh, my. All that education and he's still clinging to such rote, grammar text-narrowed concepts?

You just tell him!!

***
I was in the anger phase for quite awhile. For me, it felt like being in a blizzard,with all these (negative...sorry BT)feelings whirling around me, and I just couldnt see through them. Anger at not just H, but every person who failed me in the past, including myself.

I thought I was going to go insane when I was at the thickest of that blizzard.Thats when I also realised that I had no control over anything in my life, that I couldnt make H be this 100% remorseful WH willing to do anything for us; that I couldnt put a bubble wrap around the kids and seal them in that safe world that I had created and maintained thus far; that I couldnt make my parents and sisters understand me esp when I didnt understand myself; that I couldnt fastforward R by simply following steps 1 to 5 vigilantly.

Couple that with the anger of what H did to me, and what I did to me all these years...It all got too much.

I didnt know what to do, and thats when BT and OTC stepped in and told me to sort myself out, that I was the only "thing" I had control over, and once I got that going, everything else would start falling into place.

I admit I was reluctant to follow this advice at first.But I had faith in them. I saw what they had accomplished. I know from what they shared, that they had fought similar battles with themselves. And I realised that I dont want to just survive this, I want to thrive and flourish too. I want to be that person that I have denied myself, because I was so caught up in being what I thought everyone else wanted me to be.

Thats where I have been in the recent months. Doing a journey into me, trying to heal what was broken in me.

And once I changed my focus, and let go of the rest, I felt lighter.And although I do encounter a little storm now and then (as you guys know too well ),the blizzard has become thinner. I can see through.

Hope this all made sense in some way.



Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I kept coming back to the thought that the A had in some way been a way to test whether he actually had the unconditional love from me he'd never had from his mother.

This statement triggers several thoughts. First, that so many of our H's had serious issues with their mothers and as a result we become the women who pay the price for their mothers'
sins. I wonder if there is a single one of us whose H doesn't have issues with his mother.
As to his mother's lack of unconditional love this doesn't seem to be at the heart of my H's problem. It is the fact that both his mother and father from a very early age taught him to lie and to steal and to do whatever he needed, tread on whoever got in his way, in order to succeed. Success, wealth, power were their values. My H had a friend/boss who took him under his wing at an early age and my H both loved and respected him but because of the pressure from his parents, cheated, lied and stole from him. He lives with a lot of guilt as a result of this. When this person died my H was left with guilt and remorse for never having taken the opportunity to apologize for his sins against this man. In C'ing, this has been a huge issue and there has been some discussion that in cheating, lying and stealing from me what was rightfully mine, he was working through these guilt feelings and by winning my forgiveness he might also feel he has finally gained forgiveness for his past sins. I believe it's called repetition compulsion whereby you keep repeating the same behavior until you can finally resolve deep wounds from your past.
It's frightening really when you think of how deep their wounds go and how we have become the means by which they work through their pain and, in doing so, we become the wounded.
I honestly cannot imagine how I would have survived had my parents not taught me to be honest, loyal, compassionate and decent. No childhood is perfect but the values my parents instilled in me have served me well. The problem of course was that I believed my H held these same values and this was my downfall. I overlooked the obvious contradictions - the fact that he had cheated on and lied to his first wife.
I think if we did D, he would continue this pattern of lying and cheating to get whatever he wanted and needed for himself. My hope for him is that somehow this process of healing our M and ourselves will somehow help him to break this destructive pattern of behavior.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Run,

I've been thinking about how to answer your question. How do you learn to just let go, to stand still, to not control, to just work on being you and allowing other to be them.

In my case, what it took for me was two-fold: understanding who I was and how I got to be that way, and finding my deepest fears and the (false) beliefs that drove them, and then working to change those.

Fear is what drives the need to control. Face down the fears and the need to control evaporates, except as a habit. And habits can be broken.

One of the truly amazing things about the human psyche to me is that merely exposing something dysfunctional in it is healing. Once you know that you hold a certain unhelpful belief or feeling, you are actually a good bit of the way down the road to fixing it. Like shining the light on it immediately starts to shrivel it.

You've said you cannot go to IC right now, so I would suggest doing the workbook for Facing CoDependence. It's called Breaking Free and I checked, you can get a used copy off Amazon for $4.12. This is not for the faint of heart. It is good and detailed and draining to do. But helpful.

I would also suggest checking out EFT, which Lost and others have talked about on here. The website for it is emofree.com. Once you identify some of your deepest fears, EFT is a good way to begin defusing them.

A lot of this is going to focus on you being willing to delve back through your life -- not just your marriage, but your childhood, your teenage years, etc. That's where a lot of your answers lie, and you need to look back there to find them. I don't know that I've ever heard you talk about that.

I know this is scary stuff, Run. If there's any way you could swing some IC, I would really try to do it. It's beyond helpful to have a guide through all the muck. Lots of those deep fears and false beliefs are buried one under the other, and getting to them is like peeling an onion. I guess there are some onions that can peel themselves but it's a whole lot easier with help.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But what really, really helped is learning why I did what I did during those years (and before and after). Why did I make those decisions that I made. Why was I afraid to do more than just voice my objections to things he did or didn't do. What were the fears that limited me or drove me? What were the options I was too frightened or ignorant to consider?

If pride is a sin then I stand guilty as charged. I have always known that it was my pride that forced me to make the choices I made during those years. My H did not want to participate in my life, interests, etc., he did not want to be my companion in this M. Initially I fought this. Then my pride entered the equation. You don't want/need me - I don't want/need you. I don't need you for my happiness. I don't need you to fill a void. I have too many other people who love and care for me to worry about you. I have many interests, hobbies, etc., to enjoy with or without you and I'm not waiting around for you to join me. Join me if you want but I'm going with or without you. This was my attitude for years. I became extremely independent of him. This included my time with our children as well. Two of our children lived a good distance from home and more often than not I would take off to spend time with them on my own.
I remember planning a trip to Europe (my son lived abroad at the time) and my H came to me and said he'd like to go with me. I looked at him and said, "You're not invited." I had gotten so used to doing things on my own that he started to feel like a burden and a spoiler to my lifestyle. When he came along, he complained, or wanted to do or not do the things I enjoyed and I had much more freedom when I went alone. Sex of course was a problem for me. I didn't have a BOB and so when those needs arose I did feel lonely. Other than that, I loved my independent lifestyle and today it is a bit of a problem to me since we have agreed to share more time with each other.
I want to think about this some more. There might be other things I can learn from my actions during this time. I guess I've always believed it was my pride and never looked further than that. Maybe that's all that it was, maybe not. I might just explore that in my next IC'ing session.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh boy, just so much great new stuff here.

Learning to see that ambiguity and uncertainty and not be controlled by the fear of it was a real hard lesson for me.

I can't tell you how long I spent being indecisive about what to do. I stood stock still in my bedroom and living room and kitchen just staring and wondering what to do next, what if I did this, what would happen.

And here's what bothers me about the idea that we can't control the outcome of our decisions.... isn't that what our spouses did? Thought well, I've made this decision to fuck someone else and I can't control it?

fnf, so much of what you write resonates with me. I could have written:

I keep reading and re-reading your post about putting the past to rest. I'm getting better at it but I am 2 years and 3 months out and still tormenting myself with the whys and the hows of his LTA. I also torment myself with questions of why I wasn't more aggressively addressing the problems in our M - the lack of sex, the lack of communication, the lack of quality time together.
Shirley mentioned that she did fight for what she believed she deserved but to no avail. I did too for years and then one day I stopped fighting him and chose to lead a life quite separate from my H. We led parallel lives that only came together on occasion and honestly I felt during those years that this was a satisfactory solution. As I told my MC, I had two choices (assuming of course that D was not an option for me with 3 small children) - one to stay and bemoan my H's lack of attention and care or two, look to myself and see what I needed in order to find happiness and contentment in my life with him simply as an additional asset if and when he chose to engage in our M. Our C told me I chose the healthiest option. And for many years this seemed to work for me. Until d-day! I don't often torment myself with the what-ifs - what if I had insisted on MC'ing, sex C'ing, quality time, etc. But I do torment myself with the Hows and Whys. How could he come home and kiss me and tell me he loved me after fucking her? How could he not see the damage he would do to us and to our children? Why didn't he care enough for me and our children to want to give us his love, care and devotion?
The one question that I continually ask and search an answer to is, Who was this person who was capable of such utter deceit and how can I be sure he no longer exists?
I accept that we can't change the past but I'm not sure that that means we shouldn't attempt to understand the past and to learn from it. I know that's not what you're trying to say but until I can feel that something substantial has been learned from his actions during those years, and from my own actions, I don't think I will be ready to move on.

And I think this is the point I was trying to make with shirley the other day, I did choose a real life, he wasn't in it, but I was engaged with my children, my family, took care of my mother. I lived through the deaths of both my parents, alone. HE brought up the subject of counseling when I found the first motel receipt... mainly because he was hoping to prove I was the crazy one, but I didn't take that route.. I know why, because he had told me over and over how little respect he had for "head shrinkers" and gee, one little motel receipt that he explained away so well, because he was accurate, I was suspecting and paranoid, I just didn't know I had the right to be.

And run, you too honey, we are so alike...

I know that is key to recovering from a lot of things--not just LTAs. As you all know, I'm fiercely codependent (would like to be recovered), and control (or should I say "my illusion of control") is how I function--how I maintain my equilibrium.

How does one learn to stand still and "let" things happen? Yes, even though on is not really "making" things happen, how do you get rid of the "illusion" that you are in control of the outcome?

How do you actually LET.GO?

And it's not just that. I believe that we do have an influence on our environment which then influences the decisions of others in our orbit. We talk about this... how the BS needs to "create and enviornment where it's safe for the WS to give the details and answer the questions." Isn't that CONTROL??? And not just of ourselves, but of the atmosphere of the marriage?

brooke,

I think, to let yourself off the hook for always being responsible for the outcome

My IC gave me a slip of paper the last session which read "It's all my fault". She told me to take it out and look at it whenever I was starting to feel good about something, because I couldn't accept that I wasn't at fault for everything that ever happened to me, to my H to our kids, to my mother.

I get her point, but I still feel that way. I know I'm not responsible for his decision to have the affairs. But I do feel responsible for being me, being a person who would allow someone to treat her that way and basically to deliver no consequences for the actions.... still haven't. In part of my mind and heart, this marriage is over.

shirley,

He actually was envious of me, of my success, of what he perceived to be my talents. Any time in his life he saw someone who was more successful, he secretely wanted them to fail. With me, he was given the opportunity to help that "failure" along. He admits that, definitely, on a subconsious level but also, to some extent, on a conscious level he was competing with me and wasn't above cheating to win (notice how nicely the word cheating turns both ways in this context

Does he still do this? Mine does. He doesn't even recognize that's what he's doing. He did it again this morning, tore down someone that in essence "had something he didn't". I know his choice of partners had something to do with his need to feel better than someone, so he picked humans lower on the ethical, moral ladder than himself. He actually got an ego boost out of being with hookers, because "at least he wasn't selling himself". With the GF, (and this is true, really, he said it) at least he wasn't fucking a married woman. He actually had a line he wouldn't cross. He said he never was with a married woman.

I'm almost finished Facing Codependency. It was a very hard read for me. I could barely get through 10 pages without the pain of the truth being so unbearable.

There's one section that really resonates with me and I think it's what we're all experiencing with these setbacks.

"A feeling memory is a sudden overwhelming emotional experience that also cannot be explained by anything that you are aware of at the moment. Feeling memories surface mostly in the form of four primary emotions.. anger, fear, pain and shame..... A "shame attack" is a sudden, profound almost overwhelming sense of being less than, worthless, inadequate, stupid, bad, ugly" or (responsible for all the bad things in our life or the life of others.)

Their affairs are somehow centered in OUR shame center.

Now I haven't finished the book, and gee, a whole 25 pages of the book are centered on recovery. Somehow THAT seems unbalanced, but we are all carrying the shame of their affairs and the shame of "allowing, permitting, ignoring, and some have even said entitled them to it".

I think THAT's the crux of the matter. But somewhere, somehow along the way of our progress through life, we were "told" that was our responsibility. Our H's behavior, our kids' success, our parent's divorce, everything is under our control.

So, we're on the same journey as our Hs. Sorting out the past, finding what we did and didn't have control over and really acknowledging it, facing it down, putting it in perspective.

I know to my H, the affairs, themselves, are simply irrelevant to who he is today. And maybe someday, six or seven years down the road (like he is) the life I led then will not define me either.


Now on the good side. I got a response to my letter to the Retrouvaille people. I read it to him last night. It completely blew out his whole basis for not even considering going.

Of course he found a new one, which I calmly handled (the money). Then he found another (follow up sessions) and I volunteered we drop seeing the MC while we are doing that program. I told him that "maybe we won't even need her when we're done."

On his last objection (timing)I conceded. We're both in a Stop Smoking clinic which goes on for the next 6 weeks. He said we could talk about it AFTER we finished with this "clinic".

If he thinks I'm going to "forget" he said that, he's very wrong. Damn, I wish I had taped it. Why don't I think of this stuff until after?

Another good thing... he got a ride to and from work yesterday which meant his SUV was in our driveway at my disposal all day. I didn't even REALIZE it until the afternoon, then when I did have the "I should go out and check the SUV" thought, I got myself busy with something else in the house. Wanted to tell him about my "success" yesterday, but I realized it would probably make him paranoid about leaving the vehicle home ever again. SO I'm sharing with you guys instead.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If pride is a sin then I stand guilty as charged. I have always known that it was my pride that forced me to make the choices I made during those years. My H did not want to participate in my life, interests, etc., he did not want to be my companion in this M. Initially I fought this. Then my pride entered the equation. You don't want/need me - I don't want/need you. I don't need you for my happiness. I don't need you to fill a void. I have too many other people who love and care for me to worry about you. I have many interests, hobbies, etc., to enjoy with or without you and I'm not waiting around for you to join me. Join me if you want but I'm going with or without you.

Here's where we part fnf.

I didn't do that. I waited for him and if he didn't come around to what I wanted to do, I wouldn't do it. The only exception were things that HAD to be done, like the teacher meetings, special needs doctor appts. It wasn't that I thought "You don't need me, I don't need you." It was "I need you, but I can't count on you." More disappointment than defiance. I wish I had had some pride.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


He says he never even knew what love "felt" like. God, if I didn't hate him so much, I would feel sorry for him.

Ah the beauty of life after an A. It gives you the opportunity to learn that the two things can co-exist.

Seriously, the further out I get the more I believe that as disrespectful as an A is to the BS, it's an act of utter self-sabotage and disrespect on the part of the WS.

They may not recognize it. They might even feel they're entitled, or need sexual variety, or get off on the adrenaline or attention, but the truth is that there is no way they can come off in the end feeling good about what they've done. In my darkest moments, I found quite a bit of comfort in the realization that I will never have my life being disgusted with my own actions towards the people I love.

I know it sounds weird here, but I honestly do have some empathy for people broken enough to bring this on themselves.


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know it sounds weird here, but I honestly do have some empathy for people broken enough to bring this on themselves.

I don't think that's weird. But what I've found recently is that I am more disgusted than sypathetic.

We were talking this morning about the decisions some business men make, like when they're failing, they'll set their warehouse on fire (this was specifically a car dealership). I asked my H if he would ever do that. He said if we were at a point where we couldn't make the mortgage, were on the brink of losing the house and everything we owned, he'd burn the house down without a moments thought.

I was so disgusted and angry at the thought of someone doing that, I wanted to spit something nasty at him.

Before, I probably would have felt empathy for someone being in such a desperate situation to feel they had no alternative.

I guess it's now I realize that we make decisions every moment of every day. It's up to us to choose the right one. These "men" probably had several forks in the road before they got to the "I have no choice but to burn down my business and collect the insurance".

I can't feel empathy for my H or even pity. I have no understanding of that mindset no matter how much I read. And I think it's because HE doesn't believe it either. He is so shallow that his affairs are still "just a big mistake" where to me they are the result of terrible character/personality flaws.

I don't respect his decision not to deal with them.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


My IC gave me a slip of paper the last session which read "It's all my fault". She told me to take it out and look at it whenever I was starting to feel good about something, because I couldn't accept that I wasn't at fault for everything that ever happened to me, to my H to our kids, to my mother.

I get her point, but I still feel that way. I know I'm not responsible for his decision to have the affairs. But I do feel responsible for being me, being a person who would allow someone to treat her that way and basically to deliver no consequences for the actions.... still haven't.

That's exactly her point, I would think. You are responsible for making yourself into the person you need to be for you. The rest is the stuff that will or won't change around you. And, yes, you can help or support or hope, but you can't make it happen. If it does, take pleasure in it, but if it doesn't, it doesn't.

You know, I'm someone who has always exerted pretty iron control over myself and my world. I'm a total control-freak, perfectionist (paired with some pretty horrible self-esteem), and I know I've always been that way because it gives me the illusion of control.

But I'll also tell you that despite having skated through with what looks sort of like a charmed life, I've had three major traumatic events. (1) My first memory is being there while my infant sister died. I was 2 1/2 and I remember every detail still. Anyone want to guess the psychological foundation of my control freak tendencies? (2) September 11. (3) My H's A.

And the connecting thread between all three is that they were life-changing events that were completely out of my control. It's definitely been swimming against the tide for me to learn the art of letting go and living in the moment, but seriously, if I don't take something from those experiences, something that enriches rather than undermines, then they've been totally useless horrific experiences instead of means to find something good out of the ashes.


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Before, I probably would have felt empathy for someone being in such a desperate situation to feel they had no alternative.

I guess it's now I realize that we make decisions every moment of every day. It's up to us to choose the right one. These "men" probably had several forks in the road before they got to the "I have no choice but to burn down my business and collect the insurance".

I completely agree with you. But I think that feeling can coexist with feeling sad for someone who can't or won't see another way, because ultimately it keeps them closed in a smaller world.

Do you think your H really knows what it is to feel or be happy? I know he knows what it's like to win or be right or prove you can come out on top, but what about real happiness?


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you think your H really knows what it is to feel or be happy? I know he knows what it's like to win or be right or prove you can come out on top, but what about real happiness?

As horrifying as it is to face, I think he's only happiest when he's "won".

Can he experience joy might be a better question. I don't know. He hides so much. And he has the "showing emotions is unmanly" attitude. He's so good at it, I don't even know if he feels them, or just doesn't show them.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know, I'm someone who has always exerted pretty iron control over myself and my world. I'm a total control-freak, perfectionist (paired with some pretty horrible self-esteem), and I know I've always been that way because it gives me the illusion of control.

Boy, did I learn the hard way last August that I did not and had not had ANY control over my world. Talk about the shattering of illusions!!! I believe that is one of the biggest traumas of the A and it is one that all BS (LTA and other) have to heal from - the illusion of control over your life. Now I know that I can't control anyone else's actions. I can set my boundaries, be who I want to be and decide whether they belong in my life because if they aren't in my life that can't fuck with it too much.

Brooke - are you in NYC? Were you close to WTC?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gone 8 here and Iíve only had a banana and a bag of crisps today

Ukg, this is just NOT acceptable!!!

My IC made an observation last week that brought me to my knees. She said that there were 2 people abusing me during my M. Well, I have been opening my eyes to the ways that H abused me, but she said I abused me too. And I still do that. I punish myself. I deny myself good things.I have documented my physical abuse here, but the emotional abuse I have self-inflicted is just horrendous.

It comes back to what BT said about me not loving myself enough.

Why are you punishing yourself Ukg? Cos (please forgive me if I have this all wrong)from what I see, you not eating is a form of punishment.And you have done this before. Please look after yourself.

(((((((UKg)))))))


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gone 8 here and Iíve only had a banana and a bag of crisps today

Ukg, this is just NOT acceptable!!!

What Lost said.

Back in my debutante days I was so caught up in self-image that I ate nothing but carrots and Tab. Yes, I was thin but I was ORANGE!! I know that self-image is one of the areas I need to explore further. Was having a handsome husband worth the disrespect? Was I that vain? The good news is that I started spending time on this topic before I knew about the affairs. Guess who led me to this self-exploration? My daughters because I certainly did not want them falling into the same trap. (Yes, UKG the kids are a gift on so many levels).

She said that there were 2 people abusing me during my M. Well, I have been opening my eyes to the ways that H abused me, but she said I abused me too.

Lost, I am sure you are not the only one here who feels that way and, kudos to your C for bringing it to the fore. As BT said, sometimes just shining the light on it is the biggest part of the healing.

I looked at him and said, "You're not invited."

FNF - please don't get upset but I had a good chuckle at that. I can just imagine the shock on my H's face if I had said that to him before. Now, not so much shock.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:07 PM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy, you are doing so well. The tone of your posts have changed somewhat. I know you have your bad days, but I can sense something different in you, as compared to last year..and I just wanted to say, that I am proud of you.

And I cant wait for you to get that PI PA job!

***

My H did not want to participate in my life, interests, etc., he did not want to be my companion in this M. Initially I fought this. Then my pride entered the equation

Fnf, I was thinking about this and wondered if that was really pride or your self-preservation instincts kicking in? Or something different, as I will now explain.

H was also acutely un-involved in our family life. He admitted after dday that he always felt the spectator and didnt feel the "normal" feelings for us (me and kids) that he should have.

I kept trying to involve him in everything from the pgs to the babies, toddlerhood, bday parties, teething, walking...everything. And he resisted every way he could. And I still kept at it. I even build him up with the kiddos, crediting him for things like treats because he just wasnt bothered.

I build a life, and he wasnt it, not because I kept him out, but because he didnt want to.

It came to a head in 2005 when he refused to go to a party that the kids had been looking forward to all holidays. We hardly went on holidays, because surprise surprise, he HAD to work. Riight.So come holidays, kids and I did day trips everywhere. Anyway back to the party, he refused and my heart sank cos the kids started begging him, knowing that we couldnt go without him, and thats when something snapped inside me, and I packed the girls into the car, got DS to sit in front to navigate (I hadnt driven so far before)and off we went. And that started that trend. After that I would tell him that we were invited somewhere and for him to let me know whether he was coming or not.

After dday, he started wanting to be with us, and we (kids and I) found it strange him being around us so much.

Back to my original thought. IC told me today that part of the reason I "accepted" H's disrespectful behaviour was that although I knew better intellectually, in my heart, I didnt. You see thats how my father treated my mum and us. And thats what I was "used" to.

Maybe Fnf, there was a similar dynamic between your parents that played out in your M?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Topic Posts: 1000
Pages: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · 9 · 10 · 11 · 12 · 13 · 14 · 15 · 16 · 17 · 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 · 24 · 25 · 26 · 27 · 28 · 29 · 30 · 31 · 32 · 33 · 34 · 35 · 36 · 37 · 38 · 39 · 40 · 41 · 42 · 43 · 44 · 45 · 46 · 47 · 48 · 49 · 50

Return to Forum: I Can Relate This Topic is Full
adultry
Go to :
madness  
© 2002 - 2014 SurvivingInfidelity.com. All Rights Reserved.