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User Topic: Long Term Affaris - X
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shirley - I couldn't pass up this opportunity to wish you sweet dreams tonight!
Keep the phone handy!


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Shirley, try not to project other people's shit onto you and your H if you can. I think it's one of the real dangers of SI. On the other hand, it's one of the real strengths. If I hadn't come here and read about all the things WS do I would never have believed that that could have accounted for his actions over the years.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf- fat chance!

BT - you are right but it is so hard when you see someone try so very hard and then get completely shit on by her WS.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HS - my personal favorite dreams are when I'm beating the shit out of my H or the OW. Once I woke from one of these dreams and was so frustrated because I couldn't hit him in the dream so while he was still sleeping and I was still frustrated I smacked him upside the head. He woke up startled and said, What did you do that for? I was so innocent and said, Oh, I'm so sorry, I must have been dreaming! Sometimes I can be such a bitch.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was still frustrated I smacked him upside the head.

Well, if he makes it back into what once was our bed, I will give this a go just for the fun of it.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 9:57 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

At one of the first Al-Anon meetings I went to years and years ago was a lady who talked about standing over her H as he slept wielding a cast iron skillet and wondering just where and how hard she should hit it. The lady was a scream, and I came home still chuckling and told my H that story.

He still talks about that woman. Scared the crap out of him.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, April 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@ BT

Now I know what to do with the cast iron skillet his MOTHER gave me!

(but they make a great steak too)


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Shocked  Posted: 12:23 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT, that is a horrible thing to have had happen to you. I'm so sorry.

Yes, I suffer greatly from abandonment. I'm paralyzed by it, actually. One thing I didn't mention is how many times my mom shoved me away (literally). When I was a teen, she physically threw me out of the house with nowhere to go more times than I can count for reasons that would make your head spin (like eating the last of the cheese ). I know there was something wrong with her, but I don't know what it was.

Also, when I was a teenager, I lost a relative who was the only person I positively KNEW I mattered to. I've never known it again. I still have a great amount of pain about it to this day.

I have always lived in great fear of losing the people I love, and I think that led to a lot of my controlling behavior.

Yep, I agree with this. Actually, if I'm honest with you, that fear is the reason I stayed after the LTA.

It scares me to death to think that if I face that fear I might not want to stay with my H anymore. So, I guess I'm "controlling the outcome"???

<<<shaking head>>>So screwed up.

edited to add: "celibate cheater"? That's a very interesting term.

[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 12:35 AM, April 9th (Wednesday)]


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 6:40 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One thing I didn't mention is how many times my mom shoved me away (literally). When I was a teen, she physically threw me out of the house with nowhere to go more times than I can count for reasons that would make your head spin (like eating the last of the cheese

(((Run))) sounds horrible. No wonder you are afraid of abandonment. That is worse than abandoment - that is torture for no reason.

Actually, if I'm honest with you, that fear is the reason I stayed after the LTA.

yep, this is my fear. Why is he still here? Am I just weak? What message am I sending him if he gets to stay after what he has done?

He is out of town. I woke up early to mind movies and sent him this email just to let him know what a great morning I am having:

You know what sucks? Waking up at 5:40 am and not being able to go back to sleep because all I can think about is "how were they able to have sex in the car". "Did they take off their clothes and climb into the back?" "Did they just unzip and pull up the skirt and do it in the front seat" "Who climbed on whom and was it comfortable?" "How long did it last? Did she moan like he said she always did?" And, now that I am thinking about it, "Did they have sex in the convertible, too? Probably but he hasn't bothered to tell me about that."

Excuse me while I go puke.

We'll see what his reponse is...


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((shirley)))

(asking nicely) so what do you want his response to be?

Do you want answers to the questions? or do you want him to acknowledge that it's his fault you wake up like that?


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

weepy -

Part of it is a vent to him and part of it is me anticipating the "how did you sleep?" question. I know he asks out of concern but I just want to scream "listen, asshole, I haven't had decent fucking night of sleep since August of last year thank-you-very-much". I want him to see my pain, hear it, read it. If I am going to suffer, I certainly am not doing it silently!

But you knew that already, right?

ETA: OMFG, just as I posted this he called and asked "how did you sleep?" I told him to read his email and he would know and hung up.

[This message edited by hurtshirley at 7:30 AM, April 9th (Wednesday)]


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 7:33 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF:

Don't worry too much about your grandchild. You are much younger than my grandmom and in good health. She was 72 and in somewhat failing health and on a lot of medication. You'll be fine, and your grandchild will be so blessed at having your love and attention.

I was thinking about the whole "pride" issue that you raised. Although I had listened all my life to sermons that listed pride as the most grievous of the seven deadly sins, I didn't understand why. I thought people needed to have some amount of pride in themselves to live a decent life.

But I think I was really confusing pride with dignity. When I think about it, the kind of pride that is sinful is that which requires deceit, putting up a false front. It is something that keeps you from doing what you know is right.

I don't think that's the same thing as what you're talking about though. It sounds to me like what you are doing is just keeping your private life private.

Maybe the more problematic part of what you talked about is that your pride allowed you to turn your back on your H during your marriage rather than fighting to get through to him. I know I did the same thing and for the same reason. Talk about biting off your nose to spite your face.

From an emotional point of view, I think pride (or maybe the more accurate term is vanity) tells us that we have an over-reliance on the opinions of other people. Getting validation from what others think, from their opinions of us. As we have learned from our H's, that is never a good thing.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 7:35 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm pretty sure your guy knows you're in pain.

The worst part my H says is that he feels helpless when I am. There's nothing he can do to ease it, it just has to pass. WE have to see what it is we're looking for, what we want them to know, or if it's just a vent to let off some of the pent up anger, like you said.

Sometime (and I'm not saying now or anytime soon) we have to vent in another way, not AT them.

When I was angry at H, pre-dday, I'd clean. After Dday I'd clean and tell him I was cleaning because I wanted to rage at him. Now he just knows that if I stomp upstairs and grab the Comet, he'd better be nice to me!

One poster a long time ago said she took every glass and dish she owned and threw them against teh wall of her stall shower. That it made "great" noise. I don't recommend that!

What tans my ass is that since my H is Emotionally Unavailable and "storming" by me makes it worse, I have to do it while he's not around, if I can.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Run,

Boy, I just had a giant urge to bitch-slap your mother. And mine, who did different but equally hurtful stuff. Most of the time I can show compassion to my Mom and understand that she really did have issues that probably rose to the point of some type of disorder. But every once in a while the ol' bitch slap urge sneaks in there.

I think if most BS's are honest, fear plays a role in our decision to stay post-d-day. That's probably as it should be. The whole purpose of fear is to keep us safe, and there is a culturally engrained understanding in all of us that being alone is an inherently more dangerous position than being paired off. Unless of course your partner is a bigger threat than the rest of the big bad world, which can become the case with a WS.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((Run)))))

Families are sometimes a piece of work, huh?

BUT look at you Run!
Look at what you have endured,(and I know that you made some bad moves in the past)and just look at how well you have turned out. And you dont have ANYONE to credit that to but yourself.

Bravo, my Friend, Bravo!

***
Speaking of horror stories, I just remembered one my mum used to do to my sister. I seldom got in trouble when I was little, as I was Miss Goodyshoes, ever on the alert. But my youngest sister challenged everything and everyone. My mum used to pretend to call the orphanage and tell them that there was a naughty girl ready to be picked up. I used to stand there willing my sister to just shut up and behave.That "call" always worked.

***

He woke up startled and said, What did you do that for? I was so innocent and said, Oh, I'm so sorry, I must have been dreaming!

Oh FNF!!!
And you sound like such a sweet lady on the phone!

***
Shirley, I am great believer in venting to Hs' (as you well know)
We need them to hear our pain, we need to feel that in someway that they might feel some pain, that our anger and hurt will penetrate through whatever fortress they built around themselves to enable them to do what they did.

And yes,it did make me feel better.However when he retaliated, I ended up worse, so my venting was a russian roulette.

***
First day off work for being sick. Came home last night with fever and tummy cramps and chills. I HATE being sick.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will give this a go just for the fun of it.

Oh Shirley - it was fun - believe me! I still laugh at this memory. Trouble is, you can only get away with it once. So please share if you ever do take this opportunity - I can always live vicariously!


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My mum used to pretend to call the orphanage and tell them that there was a naughty girl ready to be picked up.

Agh! That's horrible!

yep, this is my fear. Why is he still here? Am I just weak?

I often think I am just weak. But really, wouldn't it be easier to to quit this? Yes, it would have it's own set of different struggles, but you wouldn't have to try to interweave what he's done with staying married to him--accept the unacceptable. This is hard fucking work and not a bit for the weak.

What message am I sending him if he gets to stay after what he has done?

I guess that he is worthy.

I think like this too though--and about your previous comment that we lose everything and he just gets to keep his family. But when I made a similar comment to our MC (when we went), he said, "So you want to punish him?"

I guess somewhere down in there there is that desire...but I don't want to be a person who wants that. Does that make sense? That's not up to me.

The problem I had for a loooong time is: What message am I sending my daughter?

I can still get hung up on that sometimes.

BT, I liked what you had to say about pride vs. dignity.

[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 8:39 AM, April 9th (Wednesday)]


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 8:41 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

your pride allowed you to turn your back on your H during your marriage rather than fighting to get through to him.

BT - I cannot tell you how many times I think about this with regret but I can say definitely that I tried for a good 15 or more years before turning my back.
There are other ways though throughout my M in the early years where my pride interfered. My H is not overly complimentary (understatement of the year btw). You would think a body part would fall off if he told me I looked nice or smelled good. I was very vain as a young wife so whenever we were going someplace special I made sure to look my best. I hated that he could never notice or if he did, never say something nice.
So when others, particulary men, noticed and commented I would flirt right back and my H would stand there and watch. He had a cousin who I was very attracted to and he and I would flirt with each other (I know, bad, very, very bad) every time we would be in each other's company. I was so needy in this area and this man was overly attentive to me. So one time when he showed up with a date (he was single) my H said to him, "nice girl" and his cousin said, "Anytime you want to trade you let me know." My H responded, "Me, I have to, why would you want to?" I cried all the way home. I know that by flirting shamelessly, I set myself up for this, but I wanted my H to know that other men found me attractive and had no problem saying some very nice things to me. My pride and vanity always interfered with my judgment. I look back on those years and think it's no wonder that we ended up here.
FYI, although I know that my flirtatious relationship was completely inappropriate, I wanted to say for the record that it never went beyond that. Oh, I had my dreams, good ones, but the most we ever did was kiss each other hello or goodbye as I did with other family members. So that is my story of how pride presented many problems in my M over the years. I have others but I think you get the picture.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In fact, just the opposite. I have told my H repeatedly not to stay out of some sense of obligation. I'd rather see him leave that stay out of pity or whatever. That would seriously wound my pride. And it is my pride that I tend to protect at all costs. I think this is one of the major reasons I chose to stay and work on my M. I didn't want others to know what my H had done to me. My pride would have been seriously attacked. As long as others could look at us and see a successful M, I could hold onto my pride. If they saw our failure, then I was exposed.

I can relate to this too fnf, but I do relate it to my abadonment issue. If I'm not perfect, if my life isn't perfect, if I'm not the best wife, best mother, best DIL, then people will leave me. So my "pride" is wrapped up in my low self worth.

Still to this day, I know I will never tell my MIL about her son. Because I'd hear the "I told you so" and "if you had listened to me, been a better wife, not worked, had more children..." and on and on. I don't think my weak self could bear hearing that, even though I know intellectually it isn't true, I "know" in my heart it is.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, April 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Run))) It does sound like your mom was suffering from some disorder. Have you ever asked a family member if this was possible? I know it wouldn't take away the pain, but I think it would help you to KNOW that it was not about you, it was her.
What message am I sending my daughter?

I worry about this all the time - I think most of us do. We certainly don't want this to happen to our D's and yet, if they interpret this as acceptance on our part, could this be possible?
I talk to my girls a lot about this. I try to explain my reasons for staying but sometimes I think they come out sounding like justifications or excuses because I'm still struggling to understand why I'm still here. I agree that staying is not for the weak. It takes a lot of hard work and strength to stay and try to R.
The one thing that my children and my H know for a fact and that I can say with absolute certainty is that the main reason I am still here is because I want to keep my family together and as long as I can have some degree of confidence that he will not repeat this, I will stay. My children do accept this and they want this as well.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
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