|
|
|
|
 |
- |
| - |
|
|
|
|
User
|
Topic: Long Term Affairs XI
|
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053 |  Posted: 11:29 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 |     |
That is bizarre Weepy. First, that she didn't see anything wrong with that and secondly, that she is concerned with your snooping.
I, for one, frequently snoop. How else can we know whether or not these FWS's are continuing the habit of keeping secrets that just might threaten the M and our R? Did you ask her why she saw nothing wrong with his behavior?
There is nothing more I'd like to do than feel so secure and be in that place where I can trust my H so completely that I no longer feel the need to occasionally "snoop." But we do this for our own piece of mind and for confirmation of their commitment to R.
Where do you plan to go from here?
(((Weepy)))
D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride
Posts: 1876 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light | Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515 | | Posted: 11:47 AM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
I think I may be in the minority here, but the idea of floating in the middle of a huge ocean, makes me nervous<shiver>. I cant swim either. I like the idea of visiting different ports though... 
***
O/T Do you guys think this is inappropiate? I went to this meeting today and one of the directors was doing a prsentation, and he hands out these flyers for the calendars they were selling to raise awareness of testicular cancer. It was a "girly" calendar but full of naked men. Some football/fire brigade team or the other. They had their bits covered not very discreetly and he gave me a couple of flyers to "give to the ladies at the office". I just thought "Eewwhhh".
Really poor taste IMHO. But the "ladies at the office" thought it was hilarious and kept them. Either I am a prude, or I am gone supersensitive about this. 
***
She was more concerned that I snoooped!
What?? 
Weepy, this is tormenting you. You should have just asked him last night. NEvermind, do it tonight, otherwise its going to get bigger and bigger.
***
Have you guys read Stepbuild's posts?
He wrote this:
I too, made some "mis-steps" and assumed that some boundaries were "flexible". It always caused a world of grief , stress and anxiety for my wife and always had a negative effect on our R. So, I have had to internalize one major rule. ALWAYS communicate with my partner and agree before I do something that would change a boundary or modify it in any way. Its tough as my "ego" wants to get in the way, but the results in doing it for a while is that my wife now trusts me to do many more things and I feel more confident in myself.
Sitting down every month or every 2 weeks if necessary to have a "no blame" conversation is a good thing. Things get even more crazy when we are busy but the time MUST be carved out to talk and be each other's support. My wife always says to me that she feels safe when she feels that " I have got her back" and support her. Trying to keep my sensitive ego and pride and sometimes "clulessnes" in check when we hit a bump in the road has been the most difficult thing for me in recovery.
****
Have you ASKED him what he wants?
Ukg, yes I have, and so has MC and IC.
He says he doesnt know.IC told him that he needs to have a direction to work towards, and for him to think about what he wants in life. That was a few months ago, and he hasnt made any headway since. However he knows he wants us (me and kiddos...
Riiight. 
Not knowing what you want is so foreign to me. I know what I want. I always have. It changes at each life stage, but I work well if I am heading somewhere. Aimlessly drifting is SO not me.
Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine
Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London | brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581 | | Posted: 12:05 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
However he knows he wants us (me and kiddos...
OK. That's a good start. I think the problem is that he still has reason to believe he can have that on his terms. Do you think there's any way to make it clear to him that's not necessarily written in stone?
BTW- I just came off the treadmill. Can you guys believe George Clooney's the towel boy????
Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005
Posts: 1409 | Registered: Feb 2007 | weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790 | | Posted: 12:09 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Thanks LH, it is tormenting me. And yes, I think it was inappropriate. Apparently even having one of those calendars in the visual field of a member of the opposite sex can be construed as sexual harrassment, if it makes that person uncomfortable. Who CARES what the reason is we're uncomfortable.
And fnf, everybody seems to think that if he's not cheating on me, I have no reason to be snooping. Well, with everything that he has under his belt, snooping should be the least of his worries.
I know he knows I know. I'm too tender for it to just be the no smoking thing... which by the way I've had 3 today because of this.
He's just not going to get "there". I know it. Here we go again, risking his fragile marriage over a nothing nobody.
Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA | Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515 | | Posted: 12:24 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Do you think there's any way to make it clear to him that's not necessarily written in stone?
I am open to ideas, Brooke.
And the thing is, it really isnt cast in stone. If he just thought it through, and analysed everything that he has seen and heard me go through this last 2 years, he should KNOW that the one thing I am DEADSET against, is becoming my mum again. Sometimes I wonder myself if I would just end the M, so as to avoid that.
****
Hey Weepy.Dont get caught in the spiral now. Stay level and focused. For all we know, he could have a legit reason...I cant see how, but he could.
Stay level and calm, Weepy. If you cant wait till tonight, call him on his lunch break, and get it out. I know its preferable to deal with it person, but if waiting is going to send you down, then I say call him now.
Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine
Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London | forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053 | | Posted: 12:30 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
LH - not only does this appear to be totally inappropriate but it is also totally unprofessional. It's so odd that something so serious is being treated in such an offensive and unprofessional manner. I would really question the director's handling of this assignment.
It reminds me of the movie Calendar Girls - but if my memory serves me right, these women were trying to promote the idea that women of all ages are beautiful and it was not with the intent to shock or titillate (no pun intended - well maybe  ).
Did he make any reference to this? Just a thought.
Weepy everybody seems to think that if he's not cheating on me, I have no reason to be snooping
I can guarantee that NOBODY here feels this way. I'm with LH - deal with this tonight even if your D is around. When I have something that I HAVE to discuss, I let my D know and ask her to make herself scarce. She understands and is happy to be warned in advance.
D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride
Posts: 1876 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light | weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790 | | Posted: 12:40 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
For all we know, he could have a legit reason...I cant see how, but he could.
He can have legit excuses, but no reasons. I read uni's post over in recon I think and she printed out a bunch of stuff about excuses vs. reasons. There are types who use excuses to cover up behavior, and those that own their behavior and have reasons for it.
Example is someone oversleeps and tells their boss they had a flat tire vs. the person who goes to leave for work and finds they have a flat tire and tells that to their boss. One is an excuse, one is a reason.
The reason he did it could be many things... he feels smothered and wanted to break out, use this to prove he's still a man with control over what he does and who he does it with (Totally anti-R, but a reason). Or he wanted to see if I was still snooping on him.
An excuse will be that he was afraid I'd be all angry and stomp around while he was on the phone with her. Or that he knows I knew he called her and wanted to see how long it took for me to confront him about it (playing a game). Neither of which addresses his behavior.
Of course there's the OTHER reason... that he's discussing our M with her, having an EA with her or wants to or he's lied about their relationship all along and didn't want me to find out the truth... what I don't know, can't prove, he doesn't have to own.
But I can only control me and what ME wants to do is confront, listen and if I get excuses, leave. If I get honest reasons, discuss it.
But I can't leave, I don't have a job or anywhere to go except the no tell motels in our area where HE frequented.
Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA | Steelergal
♀ Member
Member # 13113 | | Posted: 1:41 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Orlando and David and Colin...Oh My!
I hope no one throws out a life vest!
No worries. That tiger shark made quick work of her. 
She was more concerned that I snoooped!
Are you kidding me. I can't possibly see me not ever being vigilant. Hyper-vigilant not any more, but I will always be aware of what's going on. I wish had been moreso from day one.
Posts: 699 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: No Cal | So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801 | | Posted: 1:47 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Hi all!! i cannot even begin to kep up with you all but wanted to stop in and say hello.
((((Weepy))))))) You just seem to be having suc a hard tim ecrackin ghis shell lately.
I feel a bit in a different place all of a sudden. Nothing has really changed, adn maybe I am being crazy or naive. I just don't think he is going to cheat right now. I think he is committed. With this usrgery, he has stepped up to the plate big time. I am less mother, he is more partner. We are a team, and he is doing most of hte work right now which is relly great.
So now I want to know how to move on with R. I want to know how to have fun when you are in R, how to learn to love each other againadn learn to like each other again adn how to even relate to each other. Ithink we hve forgotten how t do those things.
We skippedMC today. I am having such a bad day recovery wise from surgery...lots of pain...and it was an early appointment. We both lay back down for a few minutes and decided as a team to cancel. lol. e called and then curled back in bed behind me and we snuggled to sleep for 3 hours. It was way better than MC woudl have been...I wasn't sure how I was even going to walk in to the building. He has IC on Friday adn will reschedule us then.
Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens
Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007 | lovinlife
♀ Member
Member # 17863 | | Posted: 3:02 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Steelergal,
Thank the Lord for that tiger shark!!
SoLost,
I am sorry that you are in pain today, but I'd stay in bed and cuddle, or sleep, anyday versus MC.
I know what you mean about putting the fun back into the M. My H and I have date nights most weekends, and go away together at least once a month. We have a 5th wheel camper and love to go. We have created MANY new and FUN memories.
UKGirl,
Old flames = cold ashes
LUV IT! 
Sure wish the flame would just die out already.... but it just keeps sizzling under the surface! 
LostHeart,
It really amazes me what our H's say and do.... how much do they think we can handle?? I am sorry that things have been so rough for you, it's just not fair. What does your H mean when he has the nerve to say he doesn't know what he wants?! That would SOOOOO piss me off. Does he really think that you will wait around forever? Perhaps you should give him something to think about...???
FnF,
Gonna xheck out the post in R about trust issues. My H understands why I don't trust him and that it could take as long if not longer than his A to get over. This past weekend out of town and the XSOW reared her ugly self, and I know he isn't breaking NC, but Damn, it still makes my heart beat hard and my stomach to lurch!! 
Well, off to take a really long walk and then to start dinner.
Together more than half our lives.
I am woman, hear me ROAR!!
What you accept, you teach!
Me 53, WS 54
Reconciled for life!
DD 24, DS 27
Posts: 1159 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: Missouri | lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706 | | Posted: 3:07 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Thanks everyone who posted their support for me (and those who just read my message but didn't post).
No talk yet but he sent an ecard and is on his way home. Actually coming in the door.
Posts: 797 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada | Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515 | | Posted: 3:22 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Hey Weepy, thinking of you.
***
Fnf, I dont even hear how he introduced the topic. I am afraid he had been so boring that I must have been daydreaming. I assume though its going with the Calendar Girls theme.Just one thing confuses me though..this is aimed at raising awareness with blokes right? So why use naked guys? Its like giving women girly calendars to promote cervical cancer awareness.Men!
***
SoL, I am so pleased for you that H has been succeeding. Way to go Mr Solost!!!
I agree with Lovin.Its almost like courting again - go on dates, dress up and talk about everything except kids and the A. Rediscover each other...you will be surprised how much both missed out on during the A years.
Sending you both good vibes.
***
Lovin, I think my H is a very lost man. And I believe that that started even before he met OW1,( although living that lie with her from the time he was 23 till he was 35 when OW2 took over, really destroyed parts of him that will be very difficult to heal.)
You know I asked him once if he really got what he did to me, the kids and himself...and he said he cant and he wont. He is too afraid to look at it too deeply, because he knows it will destroy him. Although a part of me insists that it is necessary for him to do that, another part of me, is also scared. I dont think he is that strong. That sounds condescending doesnt it, or maybe I am still protecting him.
I just realised something. As much as I want him to hurt for what he did, it pains me deeply when he does. Makes sense?
Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine
Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London | lovinlife
♀ Member
Member # 17863 | | Posted: 3:44 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
LostHeart,
I do understand that his pain is also yours. And I truly don't wish our pain on anyone, even our H's.
I think that in some ways you are protecting yourself as much as your H. If it would destroy him to look that deeply inside hisself, than that would leave you to suffer right along with him. It's not a crime to love someone, even if it's not in them to return that love back in the same way. My concern would be for you... and if you can live with that. If so, than more power to you. I think your H is a VERY lucky man!!
Having hope is a wonderful thing, and those that are lost... even for a long time, can and do find their way back home!!
Together more than half our lives.
I am woman, hear me ROAR!!
What you accept, you teach!
Me 53, WS 54
Reconciled for life!
DD 24, DS 27
Posts: 1159 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: Missouri | forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053 | | Posted: 4:24 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
SoLost - so happy your H is giving you what you need to heal, physically and emotionally. Take it easy and don't rush the process. Enjoy the spoiling I know I do when I get a turn at it.
Lost - I think maybe by giving these calendars out they are intentionally trying to get the females interested because they know that the men will ignore the warnings and need their women to do the encouraging. Do you think that's possible? Otherwise, it is a totally whacky idea to give sexy, inappropriate calendars to men. One other thought is that since this poster features real macho men, maybe they are trying to appeal to the male ego. Who knows? Either way, it's very strange indeed!
Lostsoul - I'm hoping you and your H had a productive night together. Post when you're ready. We'll be here waiting if you need us.
Lovinlife - I would hate any contact or attempt by the OW. I am 2 plus years out and have yet to bump into the b----. I will totally freak if I ever am unfortunate enough to have that happen. Sounds like you handled it pretty well.
Hurt Shirley - where've you been today? Is everything ok? I hope by not posting today it means you are finally up off that sofa and enjoying the beautiful spring weather. BTW, has your H returned? If so, how did his return go with you?
Hope all is well with the rest of the tribe.[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 4:28 PM, April 15th (Tuesday)]
D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride
Posts: 1876 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light | hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197 | | Posted: 4:42 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
Hey all - Sun is out and I spent the whole day NOT ON THE COUCH - wooo hooo! Bad news is that I am waaaaay behind here again. I had some work stuff to make up and then had to do some quick last minute shopping as a girlfriend and I are flying to Miami on Thurs for a long weekend. Staying at the Ritz Miami South Beach. Anybody want to come by for a drink IRL?
So I have been in a better mood the last few days and I wonder if being sick and then getting better has taken some of my focus off of my situation. Yes, it is still there but sure is nice to have my health back, KWIM? Also, on the sage advice of the tribe, I have been doing things for myself. Some are little (manis, pedis, etc) some are, shall we say "more substantial" (like this trip). But, they are things I have either wanted to do or talked about doing for ages but I always made an excuse why I couldn't do it. Most of the time the excuse was because I had to do something for somebody else. I may have to be careful with my newly discovered self-spoiling or I may end up NPD! 
Lost - Do you think your H would post here? The reason I ask is that my H has peered into that very dark place. It scared the crap out of him to do it. Honestly, when he first started he had dreams of being bound with duct tape including his nose and mouth, unable to breathe. But now, as he is making progress, it is like he is working on his own freedom. He is so much happier. I am sure EmptyOne would be willing to PM him if he would join.
On a lighter note, don't worry about all that water. We have Matthew Mcconaughey on constant guard for you, standing by with his trusty lifeboat. Please try to make us believe you don't want to get marooned with him! Oh,and can I get a copy of that calendar!
So Lost - I am so glad to hear your H is stepping up to the plate and helping you through this. Sometimes it is really good for them (and their egos) to be forced to help us. They learn that they love us. I agree wholeheartedly that 3 hours cuddling in bed is much better than MC.
Weepy - Honestly, I do not know what to say about both your MC and your H. Your MC needs a slap up side of the head. Can we tatoo "trust but verify" backwards on her forehead so she can read it in the mirror?! I think you need to have another discussion with both your H and your MC and explain (again) why this action is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
eta: hit submit by mistake...
lostsoul good luck tonight. let us know how it goes. [This message edited by hurtshirley at 4:45 PM, April 15th (Tuesday)]
"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu
Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007 | hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197 | | Posted: 4:52 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
FNF -
I hope by not posting today it means you are finally up off that sofa and enjoying the beautiful spring weather.
Are you watching me? Or having me followed? That was just weird that you wrote that just as I was posting!
Thanks for asking.
"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu
Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007 | forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053 | | Posted: 6:30 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
That was just weird that you wrote that just as I was posting!
Geez, HS, if only I had that psychic energy working for me years ago.
So glad you're up and about and the Ritz - now that's a vacation. I'm jealous.
D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride
Posts: 1876 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light | BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435 | | Posted: 9:55 PM, April 15th (Tuesday), 2008 | |
You know I asked him once if he really got what he did to me, the kids and himself...and he said he cant and he wont. He is too afraid to look at it too deeply, because he knows it will destroy him. Although a part of me insists that it is necessary for him to do that, another part of me, is also scared. I dont think he is that strong. That sounds condescending doesnt it, or maybe I am still protecting him.
I don't think it sounds condescending at all, I think it sounds realistic and compassionate.
He's only been in IC a short time. If you can find it in you to give him time, his IC may be able to bolster him enough to do what he needs to do.
D-day 7/29/04.
Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003 | UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062 | | Posted: 6:35 AM, April 16th (Wednesday), 2008 | |
Weepy, I’m with the others on this “snooping” crap. You are right, she is wrong. Until trust is proven, you have every right to snoop and to ask why he is behaving in an underhand way. And why would you consider leaving? And as to excuses vs reasons, he has neither when it comes to clandestine phone calls. As for me, he now has a Blackberry for work, but it’s company owned and I know he’s carefully with texts, but calls…..? At least he doesn’t have a company credit card this time.
LostH. Calendars. It’s all a matter of taste. Personally, I would rather see George Clooney in a state of partial undress (his tie loose, shirt undone, pair of boxers, you get my drift ….. ) than with just a small hand towel to cover his embarrassment. I bought a charity calendar from our local radio station and the guys and girls are covered sufficiently for it to be perfectly okay. No one would be shocked, the shorts are v short, the girls shirts undone by a button or two than would be okay in the street, but nothing worse than you see walking by a nightclub. Just say it’s not your cup of tea.
As to your H,
However he knows he wants us (me and kiddos...
In that case he has to work out what he has to change in himself to make sure he doesn’t lose you. And it has to be real and it has to be permanent. And I think that it may not be pain but guilt that you feel when you see his pain and discomfort. But whichever, don’t be that way. If it hurts him to face what he has done, then so be it, it means a certain realisation on his part. Take it as positive.
SoLost. Wow. Major steps forward! And superwelldone to Mr SoL. He CAN do it!! And snuggling is better therapy than a threesome with your MC any day.
Shirley,
a girlfriend and I are flying to Miami on Thurs for a long weekend. Staying at the Ritz Miami South Beach.
Lucky you!! Which airport can we drop you at? Anyone know the travel schedule? Hey, Captain?
Meantime, I am trying to process last night’s MC. I have always slept pretty well and not been troubled by bad dreams. It wasn’t good the first few months after DDay (from what I can remember), when therapeutic sleep was elusive and punctured by distressing dreams. Understandable. But lately I have had dreams of abandonment (for want of a better word) and they have moved on to being abandoned (by him) in places I don’t know and being left carrying a child on my hip (usually my youngest but aged between a baby and about 4) and no money. So most of last night was about that. And OW features quite a bit too. She didn’t use to. Apparently it’s all to do with PTSD and it is finally coming out in my dreams. MC wasn’t surprised. But it was good to talk about it. And we talked about trust and the rewriting of boundaries.
Hugs to all, buzzing off out now. Check in later. After I’ve checked out the towel boy in the gym …..
[This message edited by UKgirl at 6:38 AM, April 16th (Wednesday)]
D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 55 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.
Posts: 3178 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK | So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801 | | Posted: 6:58 AM, April 16th (Wednesday), 2008 | |
SoLost. Wow. Major steps forward! And superwelldone to Mr SoL. He CAN do it!! And snuggling is better therapy than a threesome with your MC any day.
That had me cracking up! It acually woudl have been a fourome....lol...we each bring our counselor!
I really, really appreciate all teh support you guys. It i so hard to trust again, but to feel like maybe I can is just such an enormous step. And to hear that other people do things together and are trying is so hepful. I am going to bring up a little weeken thing when I start feeling better (rough couple days-I hate steroids!).
I have found that I resent him so much less though. He is helping around the house and I do't have to be the nagging bitch, i can be the partner in crime that doesn't want to wash the dishes either and let's complain about it together for a minute. It has lways been more of a mother/child thing and that just gets massively cylically and very hard to stop. I wonder if he feels it too? I may ask him. I have felt so crappy that we have not had any kind of 'talk' in over a week adn that hasn't been that bad of a thing. I think I needed a break from t without know ing it.
OK, I don't get teh snooping thing. Isn't that part of being accountabl? Isn't that what you do after yourspouse has an affair? Shouldn't the MC be talking about ways that Mr Weepy can be more transparent so maybe Weepy woudln't have to snoop. I mean, no one wants that pressure. I don't want to have to check cell phones and emails. But that's the situation I'm in. So fiugure out how Mr Weepy can fix that and be open as a book. Ugh, that just makes me so mad! Any chance he woudl switch counselors or you couls explain your view point to MC?
Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens
Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007 | | Topic Posts: 1000 | |
|
|
|
|
