I am convinced that my WS is deeply saddened by what she did to us... she truly loves me.. and I believe that she always has... people are indeed weak.. god knows there are some things I have done that I wouldnt want broadcast about.nothing like her shenanigans however..LOL
I thought she was going to lose it this week when I hit bottom.. I was out of the country on business and she could do nothing to help me.. when I returned we just cried ourselves silly..
yes each story is different.. but I am looking at 34 years of a remarkably fine life.. yes... much of it sullied because of her lies.. but she broke it off now a long time ago.. end of blather...
and I also posted the following in the reconciliation forum today....
yes Reconciliation is very tough.. had an epiphany when I hit hot rock bottom earlier this week.. although I was working hard to uncover "truth" about the mess, I wasnt really working to free myself from the hurt.. I was wallowing in this shit.. feeling good about being a victim and "enjoying" what it was doing to WS... if I am serious about making this work, I need to get on the stick...and start working on the fix much more so than investigating the past.. there is still much to know esp about her real motivation... but that will come in time.,. now is the time to start building the foundation for the future.. if anyone thinks I am a total sap after reading my story.. feel free to slap me upside the head.. but I dearly love this woman... sentimental fricking idiot...
any reactions would be most helpful.. esp from this group
It sounds as though she has dealt with her issues and has painted a pretty picture on them, one so sweet that she can say she all she has are happy memories even though it is now over. What you want to hear is that she was somehow forced to continue the relationship by OM holding one over her and threatening to tell you, when in fact she thought, as they all do, that no one would find out and so no one would get hurt. That is the WS mantra that enables them to continue doing the unforgivable. Then suddenly the Knowledge is out, the wave hits and the primary relationship is devastated. But they still continue to say things like “I never meant to hurt you”. No they didn’t, but they never gave any thought to that because it would mean ending the A and they didn’t want to do that. It’s almost blameshifting by saying that the one who has been hurt has no right to be hurt b/c they weren’t supposed to know. And this will go on and on until your FWW can see her “happy times” in a true light. If she was that happy, why didn’t she leave? It was an escape, a fantasy, unreal. You can read a book or watch a film and feel involved in some way that makes you feel good while you are reading or watching. But when you shut the book or stop the film, you step back into real life. The affair was the same thing.
The WS does not like examining what they have done, but to reach the level of understanding and acceptance you need in order to move on, she has to do it and she has to answer your questions. Try to keep time limits when going over facts, feelings, assessments, questions, etc. Easier said than done. It’s all very exhausting, so you must look after your health at this time too. Bear in mind that your FWW is constantly waiting for the next 2x4, slanging match, meltdown, and is in a watchful state, which in turn makes her alternately sorrowful and defensive.
This is a long road. One step at a time. Obviously this is just my take on your situation, but I hope it helps.
Their relationship was kind-of dormant. They hadn't had sex since last Nov, but continued their 'friendship' (as they call it. ) I mentioned in an earlier post that a few months ago, he began suggesting that we try a summer apart b/c our marriage was failing. Hmmmm.. doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize now that this A would have continued while the BS (me) was oblivious in another state. He says they have no contact now, but I wonder if it's just that he's scared to death of losing me and the life he knew. You also mentioned hitting rock bottom. Both my WS and I have hit what I thought each time was rock bottom. Did you experience these during the post dday time? I find myself comforting him a lot.
UKg thank you for your post. While it was intended for Acres, you made really really great points. Some I've read before in other contexts, but needed to read again.
It's interesting, I've received a few posts that I need to work on a 180. Back a few weeks ago, I read the beginning and dismissed it, b/c he's the WS and I'm the one that he was trying to win back. But now that I was smacked in the head by my friends here at LTA's I realize that I have been hip deep in behavior not consistent w/ the 180. In other words I didn't think it applied b/c he was the one BEGGING for forgiveness, claiming he'd do anything and everything to make things better. But his fog hasn't lifted and he's still not being honest. God, I think I just confused myself.
I struggle with the fact that I rely solely on the version of reality that my lying WS leaks to me
I have told my H that although I now believe 90 of what he's telling me now, I believe on 10% of everything he's told me about 'then'. It's his nature to be deceptive and although he's made strides that way, I know he's hiding a LOT and I will never know.
I'm still struggling with the 10% of the present I don't believe.
It's one giant mind-fuck.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
I believe on 10% of everything he's told me about 'then'.
I know he's hiding a LOT and I will never know.
Why, why, why, why, why??? There are no answers for me. I want to slide my old marriage (life even) out of the dustcart and onto the tip, off the griddle and into the waste, out of my heart and into the black hole, all diseased and dead. That marriage is gone and he won’t see it. I can’t move on until the matter is dealt with. He wants to drag the decomposing segments into the now and it all stinks too much for me to even contemplate it. The illusion was what I had, that is what I wanted, but it is gone. Smoke and delusion. All memories are tarnished but I want them cleaned up as times that mattered. Our 25th, DS1’s 21st, WH’s 50th, that Christmas. His parents golden wedding. Other weddings. I want the sewerage cleaned off. And that would be whether we were together now or not. I want those moments back as they were. But he has covered them with the slurry of his affair. Five years of meaningless memories. I hate him for that.
Vent over. I’m going to bed. Sorry to those looking for inspiration. This is the down to go with the ok times and the good. Tomorrow is another day. I think I may need meds. Finally.
[This message edited by UKgirl at 3:57 PM, May 17th (Saturday)]
One of the things I will never get out of my mind is my husband's answer when I asked how often they saw each other at the height of the affair. He said "whenever we could".
To me, that told so much. His yearning for her, the lengths he went to be with her, the lies he must have told me, the intensity of his desire. My God that hurts still so very much and I can't imagine a day when it won't.
But I also know by the end of the affair that he no longer felt anything like that. And I believe him when he says he was glad to have it over.
That is the one benefit of a LTA in most cases -- it has burnt itself out. The WS doesn't carry a torch forever for a "love cut short." They've had the chance to fully understand who and what the OP was. They know and they still don't choose them. If the WS sticks around in the marriage, it is because they have looked around with clear eyes and a clear head and realized they want to.
If we stick around, it should be for the same reason.
Anyway, we were sitting in a park and talking and he said to me... "thank-you for staying". And then he asked if I heard what he said and repeated it, and said that he was never gonna leave and he loved me!!!!
It made everything we've been thru worth it.
OK.. now it's time for some HB, and ALOT of it!!
I am woman, hear me ROAR!!
What you accept, you teach!
Me 53, WS 54
Reconciled for life!
DD 24, DS 27
If the WS sticks around in the marriage, it is because they have looked around with clear eyes and a clear head and realized they want to
Aha. Herein lies one of my dilemmas.
One of the things that H told me last week during that open conversation, is that he has realised, through IC, that he has been lying his whole life; that he only tells and shows people what he thinks they want to hear (whether its true or not)...and he did it so well, that he cant now distinguish between what he really thinks/feels and the lies.
To which I asked, "How then do you know if this M, this family is what you really want? How do you know you love me? What if you are staying because thats whats expected of you?" and to which he honestly answered, "I dont know."
HE doesnt know if he wants all of this. HE thinks maybe he does but said he wont be sure for a long time, and that he could well wake up in the future, and realise that its not. HE said what he does know is that he cant not have me or the kids in his life.
So where does that leave me?
Its 3:30am, and I cant sleep.
Tried to have a talk about the upcoming dreaded June, but it was dreadful.
I just managed to calm down, and I apologised to him for the mean things I said.
I am angry with myself for getting upset with him, when all he was being was honest.
God, that is if he was telling the truth.
Anyway he said he really cant understand why I would get so upset about June. I should see dday as a positive event, where I got some truth about my life (and I can see that point), instead of reliving all the bad.
Regarding our baby, he said that he never really acknowledged the days before, but if I wanted to, we could plan something with the kids. How did he manage to get through the last 10 years w/o acknowledging these days? How? How do you shut away your baby like that?
And re the anniversary, he said it never meant anything to him ever, except as a marker of time. HE said ditto for the wedding. When I got upset, and asked why marry then..he said cos thats what you were supposed to do, that he didnt really think of M through properly.
And he doesnt understand why its such a big deal with me.If I say that I was never married (since he was cheating the whole time), then why do I even want to acknowledge the day?
I tried to explain that for me getting married to him was a HUGE deal...that I truly thought we were entering an important union of body and soul...he said he didnt see it that way.
YEs, he was being honest. So how does he see our M now? He says that he can see his relationship with me has improved, his relationship with the kids has improved, and his relationship with himself. But re M itself...not so different thoughts.
I know I should not get upset with him for telling the truth. But dammit, I really thought he would feel different now. And it hurts so fucking much that I gave myself 13 years ago to someone so cold and hard. And I wonder...what has changed so much since then?
[This message edited by Lost Heart at 9:39 PM, May 17th (Saturday)]
I have so much to say to you but have company with me here now. My friend, the struggles you have right now with dday approaching are in line with what we go through- part and parcel of the LTA aftermath. "Anticipatory grief" I think is what we call it- the days leading up to the event, part of the PTSD and replaying the trauma in our minds. Often the day comes and it wasn't nearly as bad as the days leading up to it. Please, please give yourself a break here. Feel those feelings, lean on those who understand. Your H may not have come to the point yetwhere he can be that person for you to lean on if he hasn't really and truly addressed his own issues.
I will talk more to you later about the aniversary of the loss of your sweet baby. This is something that I, unfortunately, know all too well. And I have some thoughts to share about this, also.
Hugs for now,
But. I do know how he felt about her, even if he says his “poetry” meant nothing. He wrote most of it after he’d been with her, so I reckon it meant everything
I hate to quote yourself back to you, but you said it so well:
It was an escape, a fantasy, unreal. You can read a book or watch a film and feel involved in some way that makes you feel good while you are reading or watching. But when you shut the book or stop the film, you step back into real life. The affair was the same thing.
CAn you see that in your sitch too, Ukg? Just because your H wrote some bad poetry about her, doesnt make anymore real. My H wrote her documents, fantastic cards and even threw in some romantic powerpoint presentations (to each their own, I guess )...but that was all part of their delusion. Just because they wanted to believe in that delusion for that time, doesnt make anymore real or believable. They were all a bunch of sorry asses...off in some fantasy lalaland, whilst we were holding the fort down in the real world.
I can’t move on until the matter is dealt with
Ukg, how would you like it to be resolved?
I am sorry you are hurting today, my friend.You are in my thoughts.
My God that hurts still so very much and I can't imagine a day when it won't.
Those BSes whose husbands/wives didn't think they loved the WS at some point during the affair are the lucky ones, I think. I wish I were one of them.
BT, you are so right. I'm almost 3 years from d-day, and it still hurts to remember H saying that he "loved" her (but never stopped loving me ). And I can't imagine a day either when it won't.
I can only look at his behavior after confessing, and his behavior around OC--he may always have "concern" for her as he says, but he's not acting on his feelings anymore (and he has said that he is not "in love" with her anymore--whatever that means). I agree with you that LTA's do burn out to some degree--if they wanted to leave the M, they wouldn't be having LTA's, they'd be gone! I think??
But because it was infidelity, and secret, and sporadic, and all that, I think the intensity doesn't burn out as quickly--or if it does, the memory of that stays--how could it not? That worry may be part of my own paranoia, and part of the deadly mental comparisons I make. But what long term marriage, grounded in reality and day to day living, is ever as intense, except maybe is spurts or special occasions?
It's sad, but the memories of that intensity and the occasional surfacing of it (after 30 years!) was what I had expected in my marriage to be part of our later years--intense affection untainted by the limerence he experienced during the cheating.
I know what H has chosen and I know what I have chosen--still working on accepting the huge difference between what is now and what I had thought and expected it would be.
Am having a nice, if unseasonably hot weekend--and looking at the photos people are sendng of middle son's wedding. Hope all the tribe is hanging in there.
or was it the clandestine nature of things, the risk, the thrill, some grand ego boost that she got from the attention...she still doesnt know or wont say... any thoughts???
On our side.... strike 3 is about to happen. First he called the old GF secretly, then it was the MB after weeks of no sex with me, blaming me for it, and now, I found the phone number of the affair conspirators on his phone. He has had NC with them for almost 3 years.
Today is our D's graduation day, in 3 days my birthday. I'm going to watch and wait. This call was only 1 min, could be there was no answer, certainly there was no long discussion. I'm watching and waiting. The number turns up again and he's opened a door he doesn't want open.
I told him I wouldn't contact those people to ask questions as long as he kept them out of our lives forever. Now that he's broken that, and I feel calmer, I can call the bitch and ask her anything I want. (The bitch was OW's friend, or should I say the OW was the bitch's drug dealer).
So after my birthday, the question to him will be "did you talk to E or to L when you called there on the 17th?"
Damn stupid man.
I think if they are honest, every WS entertains exactly the thoughts that your husband is struggling with. Some do it before they begin an affair, some during it, and some after d-day. The only difference is, your H is acknowledging it to you and working his way through it openly and logically rather than slip sliding his way through it in a WS fog of limerance.
Honesty hurts, but if you ask for it, you need to honor it. I'm glad you were able to apologize for your "mean" comments. The one thing I did right after d-day was to thank my husband for finally telling me the truth and to keep on thanking him for his honesty all the way through. Of course, I often had some degree of a fit before I was able to thank him, but I always eventually thanked him.
I know it's difficult to wait while he "decides". But the truth is that you are decdiding, too, aren't you? It took me a long time to make the commitment to stay in my marriage because I wanted my marriage, not simply out of inertia. I suggest you take as long as you need to make that decision, too.
All relationships have the risk of falling apart in the future. To not understand that is to keep hold of a naivete that is dangerously reminscent of the BS fog that allowed a LTA to continue so long without detection. Relationships require us to make the decision to commit to them every single day. As soon as we take them for granted, they begin to degrade.
One of the biggest shocks I have had in recent years came in the divorce of a neighbor. These people really had the ideal marriage, and I say that having seen a lot of them, having their kids in my house often and speaking to the wife many times. Four years ago they did a big 25th anniversary vow renewal in church with a wedding gown/reception and the whole nine yeards (they had basically eloped the first time around.) The toasts they made to each other were incredibly loving and talked about their complete dedication to each other and their kids. I vividly remember the husband saying that his heart had been hers and only hers from their first date.
He is now married to someone he began an affair with 18 months after that vow renewal. And she remains devastated.
I know it sucks to have never really been married -- remember I am in the same boat there. But even those who had a long period of faithfulness from their spouses have no guarantees. Think of how many of our tribe had spouses who became WS after 15-20-25 years.
There are no guarantees. Your H could decide he doesn't want to be married, but so could you. Or you could both decide to be really married for the first time in a true partnership that will last a lifetime and be among the greatest joys in your life.
If that is what you decide you want, work for it, trust in it, have faith in it. And until you decide that, continue to focus on becoming the person you want to be. You've come such a long way, Lost. Keep focused on what you can control and don't let what you can't slow you down.
BT, I was fascinated by your post. It really made me think. It started with
Those BSes whose husbands/wives didn't think they loved the WS at some point during the affair are the lucky ones, I think.
I have been struggling with this whole concept. I even asked H again about saying he loved her b/c he has always insisted that he never said it. And that just seems so strange to me in a 5 year relationship where she was madly in love ad you talked every day and had sex every weekend and it just didn't make sense. He is adamant that he always said "I can't say that". On Friday I told him I didn't trust that and he explained that in his head he felt like if he said I love you then he was deciding to leave me and be with her and he just couldn't commit to that. He really seemed to be being sincere when we were talking.
So do I feel better that he never said he loved her? Yup, I really do. Although he now admits he must have loved her in some way to have stayed with her for so long. That hurts, but I think is being really honest and he only said it after several MC appointments.
I also think what you said about the LTA having one good point in that the A burns itself out is so true. I believe with all my heart that if I had confronted the affair in years past that i would be divorced. And I knew, in the back of my head, I just chose not to admit it. I even wrote as much in my journal from years ago. But even H said that he was getting very stressed at the end of the A b/c she was putting a lot of pressure and it was just needing to end. He said he was almost relieved when I confronted, after he got over the shock and thought there might be a chance I was staying.It is so interesting how the dynamics play out.
((((UKgirl)))) I think to have to read the things H wrote to her would just be the end of me. I read two emails from him to her and they were very short but clearly an A and I was distraught for days. i think poetry would be in my head until the end of time.
I have to agree with thanking WH. I had a very hard time with that in the beginning. But my IC/MC was really insistent. She said they have this pattern of lying to avoid confrontation. If you attack and gt angry when he tells you the truth, he will never tell it. There's no reason to. So I have learned to thank him for being honest and dwell on it a little and talk about it later.
My H had the nerve at MC (Now, this was when asked what he would like to happen when he tells me something he has done or did do) and he said he wanted me to ask no more than 2 questions about whatever situation it was. This was after having looked up the ow on an Internet dating site to "see how low she had gone". The MC was appalled. Said no way, I get as many questions as I need to feel okay with it all. H said well, you asked what I wanted, not what I thought I would get! lol
They did tell each other they loved one another and H explains it as a "different" love and more of a caring nature than real love. From things we've talked about- H also seems to have done x, y, or z because that's what she wanted ie: more cuddling after sex whereas he says, I was mostly interested in the sex and wouldn't have cuddled if she hadn't pestered me to. He says he didn't totally dislike it either but that wasn't what he was attempting to get out of the relationship. They started as PA/co-workers and developed into a stronger friendship/saying I love you's/ and then the bitch moved into my house.....
My H is good at lying & deceit in that there is no proof- He only wrote 1 letter in 2 years and it was destroyed...and she only wrote 2 letters to him. I did see pics (sadly) on her camera but they were destroyed by WH within minutes. But...they worked together in a group home and then she moved in so there didn't have to be much behind the scenes texting, letters, etc. All the phone calls were seen as legit because we were all friends....
Anyways- the other strange thing about my H's A is that he says the sex was never great- Usually it was just quick sex and honestly little attention was given to her. She actually says she could have cared less about the sex- she wanted more of a friendship/relationship. So...somehow the lack of affection, letters, great sex is comforting. I could give you a million non-comforting things too but that's a few of the things I hold onto.
(I'm rambling now....)
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
From my heart I will share with you in hopes that you feel you are not alone & maybe even to give you some hope.
Regarding our baby, he said that he never really acknowledged the days before, but if I wanted to, we could plan something with the kids. How did he manage to get through the last 10 years w/o acknowledging these days? How? How do you shut away your baby like that?
The obvious answer to this is somewhat the same reason they were able to have an A. With my H it was obvious-part of his coping mechanism was compartmentalization. For me, our stillborn baby boy came along when H was in the early throes and romantic part of his A. An additional part of my grieving was coming to terms with the fact that while I thought my H and I were grieving together, he had an additional outlet with his A partner- an additional someone to give him support, a boost, a high. To this day, he still insists that he "never shared" that part of himself i.e. his feelings about our son with "her/it." And I somewhat believe him on that front. She obviously knew about it, but I do believe his ability to compartmentalize was soooo great at that point. To be honest, even though we have a pretty good R and are this far out, when it comes to my son it is still a sore spot in my heart. I truly will never, ever look at my H the same way again about our son. Hard to explain, but that's just the way it is. It's like BT said, who I thought my H was at that time to me and to our son was not who he really was. And he really can't "make it" up to me now, no matter how hard he changes.
Another point I wanted to bring up to you, though, is that men grieve differently than women. My H also felt no need for "rituals" or "ceremony" because he said our son was always in his heart. Mothers have that incredible and overwhelming sense of needing to nurture, to "mother," and that doesn't go away just because our babies are in heaven instead of here on earth with us, my friend. Every year we have a heavenly birthday party for our son- and now it is just part of what we as a family do.. I know other moms who bring things to visit at the cemetary, you might want a special time for just YOU to light a candle, look back at those memories of ultrasounds, the birth, whatever. IF your H wants to share that with you and YOU want him to, it sounds like he is willing. And that's a FIRST step, since you said he had no interest before. And I found that with time my H actually started to participate in these rituals more and more. With my H, I think he had a delayed grief process anyway. I think the A set his emotional growth back.
Anyway, you can not make your H "feel" the way you want or need him to. But the fact that your dday and your sweet baby's death are so closely related, you are getting the tidal wave of grief wrapped together. My IC explained this to me, because I had separate grieving going on but they toppled onto one another. And with any loss that you have, later losses can re-stir the emotions from your earlier loss- a cumulative effect.
I know this was long, but I just wanted you to know that it IS a long road. It DOES hurt when our H's can't act or feel or be who we need them to be. But in your case it is pretty early in the process. Does your H fail you when you tellhim what you need, or does he deny you that? Look to see what the effort is that goes into it. And please, please continue to lean on those who will support YOU through this. I don't know if you had anyone to relate to with the loss of your baby. I had a support group and it was invaluable, and after I found out about the A I leaned on them for the aniversary days. My H wanted to be a part of it, but other than the birthday party (which the kids always know abut) I was not ready to open my heart and let him in with respect to the tender spot of my heavenly little one. For you, it may be different. But again, if you feel he can do something, then ask him and let him. And even if he fails, if he makes the effort you can praise him and let him know gently how things can be better next time.
He's with you for a reason.... he may not be able to express it well yet. Just proceed cautiously, giving a little bit of trust at a time as he shows you himself.
Oh NO, I can't believe another cell phone incident. You are wise to wait and watch. I am so sorry you are going through this
Keep us posted...
Anyways...if he goes ahead with it I will be impressed for his motivation to "make better" of the situation and owning his mistake. I hope he does it...we'll see. He's just talking about it right now.