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User Topic: N.P.D. Thread part VI
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Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

chriscross, that was a good reply. Now, go no contact. You do not need anymore drama in your life.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
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Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know, Tribe, I was wondering about NPD and alcohol and drug usage...and if any of you folks have been around your N's sans their alcohol/drug usage for an extended period of time?

What were they like "clean and sober"?

Was it the booze/drugs turning them into *assholes* AKA "The Mean Drunk", etc.?

I get a fairly clear catch view & insight of my N because he has never really gotten drunk, etc.

It would be wholly confusing to me if he did. I'd be trying to understand if it was NPD or the substance abuse!

Just sayin'.....

~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My ex-husband is a nasty bastard without drugs or booze. I would not like to imagine him using either substances to fuel his personality disorder!

DD10 is in a right old mess at the moment, she keeps saying she is not sure if she wants to see dad anymore. She said 75% of her does not want to see him and 25% does. She asks me questions about him that I truthfully answer but I think my answere are turning her more against him. I don't think this is helping her very much.
We have just had a fight and I lost my cool with her which I immediatly regret. I know she is taking it out on me but it is so damn unfair!!

I have still had no contact with the freak about the money he owes. I wonder if he will have the guts to pick them up tomorrow? I doubt it. I am working like a dog at them moment to make ends meet - lots of extra work that I can't refuse because I need the money. I am exhausted. He always still seems to be the root of all of my problems. Even now when I have been divorced for six months!!

Chris - a great reply. Keep your distance from her and you will be just fine? How old is your child? Boy or girl? I really admire blokes like you who take on the role of both parents. You are the absolute opposite of the man I used to be married to .

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
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Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Substance abuse and PD's go hand in hand. The incidence of comorbidity between PD's and alcoholics or drug users is astronmical.
My dad was an alcoholic, big time. He was tremendously abusive, esp, when he drank. He said things about me I would never say to a child, or anyone, for that matter.
Now that I know about PD's, I wonder if that was the root of the problem. He could berate and abuse my mom like nothing I have ever seen. He gave her $50 a week to run the house(6 kids) and he bought a new cadillac every two years, had a country club memebership just for himself(no spouse or kids allowed) and bought all his clothes at the most expensive stores.
I went to bed countless times in tears after he ripped me a new one as a kid. I tried to run interference for my mom and get his attention focused on me. It was an incredible mismatch, as he was a skilled litigator, educated at Harvard law school. He knew just where to hit someone to cause the mostdamage.
He sobered up the last 25years of his life, but we still walked on eggshells as he could be brutally mean. He also could be nice, which was really confusing. Never owned his shit. Never apologized.
I expect this background may explain how I wound up married to who I did.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
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Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Chriscross, I think that was a good message for you to write therapeutically. But please don't take this wrong--I just try to be really honest when it comes to the NPD's--I think if you had totally ignored her it would have really stung her. I truly believe the absolute only way to hurt them and get rid of them is the No Contact rule.

Oh, it IS hard to apply the No Contact rule because we need to have our say, I know.

Balancing Act, I'm with you. I don't think the NPD ever truly sees the problem or feels bad. That's why they really can't be helped. If they show some kind of emotion, it's only motivated by something they want or to polish the all-important image or because the image took a hit or they didn't get their way. Waah. Big babies.

This is a very bitter thing for me because I feel like there is never any justice and they just sail through life leaving devastation in their wake. No consequences for them, no siree. When I'd get after mine for something awful he did, he'd get angry and say, "I shouldn't have to hear about it." And he believed it 110%.

It pains me but I think the only satisfaction we get is the little bit of indifference we get to show. If you are indifferent, they will run.

[This message edited by OutFromUnder at 4:29 PM, May 20th (Tuesday)]

Posts: 79 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ron, what you just wrote above sure sounds familiar to me. My dad had a bout with alcoholism as well. Did the same type stuff. He did quit but he's still pretty much the same person--just not as out of control at times--no DUI's. The booze just made him more extreme.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine is also brutal w/out the drugs or booze. No comorbidity.
If anything - I would be more likely to have been tagged with that problem - & I was, by her - when I was in self-medication mode.

Maybe her substance was sex. Nymphomania.

Interesting that this makes me remember her peculiar attachment to pets. She once angrily exclaimed that she loved her dog more than any human.
They (pets, & dogs especially) tend to be servile that way.

I'm floored by the poem.

I don't think I'll ever be able to express how grateful I am to have you as compadres.

Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
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Default  Posted: 7:12 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Your words were excellent, and all of us here on this thread know exactly where you're coming from. Try to resist saying anything further to her. No contact - she is toxic. You can write the perfect words, and it's like pounding them into the wall; the NPD cannot see our pain. They do not understand what they have done to us. They only care about themselves and getting whatever is they want from us. If you have the urge to express to her, post it here. We will all give you hugs and validate your feelings -- and then tell you not to send it. It helps to write it though, I know.

I think I agree with Balancing. They don't see what they're doing. When anything goes wrong in their worlds, they find a way to twist things so that it is anyone's fault but their own. Looking back, I can really see this with my STBXH with job losses. He's had about 7 jobs in the past 8 years. He always had some reasonable explanation of how the boss was crazy, they didn't have enough employees, unreasonable expectations, poor communication, etc. Thinking back, I'm thinking maybe there was more to it.

Substance abuse -- No, my NPD enjoys alcohol, but he is not an alcoholic. Doesn't smoke or do drugs (I don't think anyway!) I will say that when he is drinking heavily, his mask seems to slip a little off to the side, and the sarcasm and bully-like behaviors come out more easily. The need for sex (and often deviant sex) came out more then too. It was all even more about him. It got to the point that I would drive separately to parties and would gather the kids up and leave when they were begging to go home because he would stay until 3 or 4 in the morning playing poker.

Ah yes, Poker -- Anyone else's NPD into gambling? Thinking they're the Best in the West? Superiority complex and the whole lot?

Maybe they all have at least one unhealthy/immoral addiction?? More deviant than what normal people would have?

Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson

Posts: 7636 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
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Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Substance and abuse and PD's go hand in hand. My H was under Dr.'s care for years. He had to have his pills! However, he did not abuse illegal drugs or alchol.

Now, he has yoga and seems to be free of all drugs. However, that has not changed who he is.

Me: BS
Him: WS
DDay 7/14/05
Married since 73

Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: Northern Kentucky
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Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am trying to realize just how much pain a NPD must be in to act the way they do.I know they damge others and make us angry. But, I can't imagine living my life as they do. It's like they are on the run all the time, lying, discarding folks that get to know them, living knowing, on some level, that what they do is so wrong

Ron... I did this for a loooong time. I realized that, at some level, my WTFH did not *create* his wacked-out self. He was/is a survivor(?) of extreme child abuse, and I know *without a doubt* that this history has EVERYTHING to *do* with who and what he is.

The trouble with PD's is, that this is who they ARE ~ not a treatable chemical imbalance, not a slight "off" way of thinking... This is the PERSON they are.

As I have watched WTF's downward spiral over the last couple of years, it is absolutely AMAZING to me to watch the complete and all-pervasive INABILTY of him to look *inward* and take ANY responsibilty for ANYTHING negative in his life. NOT ONCE has he EVER had the ability to think "hmm, that didn't work out so well, maybe I shouldn't do that again." Nope. Everything is someone elses' fault, and life simply *happens* TO him...he carries no responsibility for the direction of his life. Incomprehensible for me. And probably all of you here.

BA...I've kinda realized that your statement could very well be truly truth:

Ron - I sometimes wonder if the NPD even realizes what they are doing - the running away, the discarding. I think they see it as everyone else's problems that ruin the NPD's life.
I know it must be miserable not to be able to have a successful relationship of any type - no real friends, no real love, etc... but I don't think the NPD ever sees that THEY are the one constant in all of their misery - they will NEVER see that.

I am trying to imagine if they even feel that pain and I just don't see that they can - they can feel anger and rage at the person or thing that they blame for their pain - but they will never see that they are the root cause...

I've thought many, many times that WTF just doesn't GET IT ~ the only common denominator in his failed relationships (no friends, kids (7 of them) barely speak to him and yet another divorce) is HIM. He lacks the insight or the desire to be introspective. His thought-processes may not even allow this (insightfulness) as a possibilty in life!

And yes Ron, they do keep you guessing. They *know* that the compassionate side of those they have chosen to be "with" will not likely abandon them on a whim. We stay, we try, we hope, we wish, we get kicked just one too many times, and we get out. For ourselves.

Because the thing *is*, they will never ever SEE us ~ and will continue to try to GET from us what THEY need. It will truly and absolutely never, ever be a real partnership.

Its weird about how they lack the ability to *see* things in a more realty-based view. My WTFH is very intelligent (book-smart), but his emotional intelligence was so low it didn't even register on the scale. How could an otherwise INTELLIGENT (cerebral) person be SO utterly clueless?

dreamlife... WTF is naturally snarly and dickish, but throw in some alcohol and I never knew WHAT he would do. He became absolutely enraged when drinking (especially stronger alcohol ~ like vodka or tequila ~ as opposed to beer). The CRAZY ass crap he's done when drinking...... I would guess that it is during *those* times that he acted in a way that he genuinely IS ~ outright mean, spiteful, aggressive and hostile. Very. Yikes-o-rama.

[This message edited by cjonesjag at 8:42 PM, May 20th (Tuesday)]

Me (BS):50
Him(WTFH):51 Married: 05/26/2002
DD#1: 09/2005 (EA) DD#2: 09/2006
Mini-DDays: Many. Mostly online
DIVORCED 10/20/10
It's not what you've got, it's what you give.
It ain't the life you choose, it's the life you live

Posts: 6400 | Registered: May 2006 | From: Michigan
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Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

cjones, when you said "it's who they are", mine would actually say that. If I had any complaint about something he was doing, he would arrogantly and proudly say, "It's who I am." Oh yeah. He was right.

Mine was totally neglected and ignored as a child and his only parent was not a role model for sure. Part of why I felt sorry for him. He never took any responsibility and he never seemed to be able to learn from his mistakes. He totally could not go within, not at all. The counselor said he was oblivious and that she couldn't get anything out of him. Boy, can I believe that.

Sometimes it's just downright spooky how much they all have in common and how consistent it is.

Posts: 79 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Default  Posted: 11:00 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My ex didn't drink often but he did get drunk at times. He is very depressive when he drinks and he did attempt suicide atleast 2 times after drinking while I knew him.

The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.

A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.

Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
Balancing Act
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Default  Posted: 6:25 AM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Mine did not have the rages or the substance abuse that so many of you have experienced....

When he got angry he would completely withdraw. I don't think I ever saw him drunk - I've never seen him gamble...

He's just an odd duck...but he's still a duck...

Me - a wonderful new beginning and giving love another chance

Tulsa Area Coffee Buddy

Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: in the middle, somewhat elevated
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Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I sometimes wonder if the NPD even realizes what they are doing - the running away, the discarding. I think they see it as everyone else's problems that ruin the NPD's life.

I'm not sure if they really don't realize what they are doing, or if they feel so damned ENTITLED and justified at what what they are doing that they have somehow made it *okay*.

The NPD is so self focused that he/she can't think or see past what the impact/situation has on him/her. They cannot put themselves in another persons shoes, they cannot EMPATHIZE at all. It's all about them and how they feel, how they look, how it effects them, etc.

Not ONCE did I ever hear my XNPDH admit to doing ANYTHING wrong. Not even if he had completely screwed something up and it was OBVIOUSLY his fault and it was GLARING that he'd brought it on himself. Nope. It was somebody else. He didn't know, he was confused....somebody lied to him....somebody tricked him....etc.

Alcohol and drugs?? Geesh. Throw that in and you've got a raging maniac who's now not only normally unmanagable, but also drunk and out of control.

That was never his fault either.

It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)

Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
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Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to agree with Sadtoo. They really can't look past their own bellybutton.

If you look at how a person becomes extremely self-focused when they are in a crisis and have a hard time looking past the pain of the situation to other people who are hurting. This seems to be similar to the kind of behaviour the NPD have. Given that the disorder is a result of trauma in very early childhood, it is as if these people live in a constant crisis and thus focused only on themselves. They seem to need crisis to feel comfortable possibly because it allows them to be self-centered and in a state of familiarity with the world they live in (like the state they grew up in ). They are unable to move beyond it.

They don't take accountability for their actions because that would change their world view in uncomfortable ways. They are damaged so much that they can't look inward without alot of support and real help and even then the damage is a real part of who they are so even then there is no hope that they would be able to really function like healthy people.

This population has not been studies intensively (other than sociopaths) and it seems that not all that much is known beyond identification and professionals not wanting to deal with them (for good reason).

I think the addictions and the raging etc. all create a high for these people and they are addicted to anything that makes themselves feel good. They are always looking for the next high. Mine was addicted to raging and he seemed to need to get angry. It was seriously freaky.

The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.

A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.

Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
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Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, May 21st (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Talking of raging - I want to rage at my ex-husband. It is of no surprise that he failed to put the child maintainance money into my account today, even though last week he said he was now paying weekly!
I want to rage at him and call him all of the names under the sun even though it would do no good. What shall I do? Be calm and collected and politely ask why he is not paying anything towards his kids? Or shall I rage back at him?
I am not frightened of him anymore so I think I can choose whatever approach I like!

This is a typical example of how they only care for themselves. The kids tell me that he is having a new bathroom fitted, he has been on holiday twice this year, he smokes twenty a day etc etc. He is not short of money but he is choosing not to take financial responsibility for his kids. What on earth can I do about that? The child support agency already have investigated him and got nowhere because he lies to them. He also has a claim from his first ex-wife!!! This just brings me down and I know it is all done so he can have attention from me but I am not inclined to let this one drop, seeing as I have another twelve years of financial support due from him. My solicitor cannot help me with this one apparantly.
I hate this personality disorder. I feel pity for them that they had such a hideous childhood but they choose to live like they do. My ex knows that he has to pay maintainece. He paid for his kids from his first marriage throughout our marriage, but he won't pay for my two. I guess its because they belong to me and I am his latest punch-bag. The one who has ruined his life etc. etc. These people make me sick!

Sorry for moaning - I'm just a little tense this morning. And sad. And upset. The usual emotions when dealing with the freak. Excecpt I'm not scared anymore!

Have a peaceful day folks!

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
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Default  Posted: 12:16 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In its simplest terms, these NPD's did not love us. Makes it easier to accept what they did and how they are. Once you come to grips with that, it's not as painful or bewildering.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
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Default  Posted: 2:58 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can accept this but it is hard to explain how this works to a ten and seven year old child.

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
north of nowhere
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Default  Posted: 5:23 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H never touched drugs, is a social drinker. But it's ALL about him, and his wants. The need for the adorationa and adulation of women, to stroke his ego.

Posts: 80 | Registered: Mar 2008
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Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In its simplest terms, these NPD's did not love us. Makes it easier to accept what they did and how they are. Once you come to grips with that, it's not as painful or bewildering.

I agree. Once you really accept the fact that your NPD ex does things strictly for show, that yes, they will probably treat their current flavor of the month very well and do things they told you they would never do, and that neither their being nice nor being nasty has anything, ANYTHING at all to do with you, it's much easier to let it go.

Meanwhile, in NPD news, our daughter is having surgery next Thursday. They schedule surgery by age, and she's one of 3 kids, so it's basically a sit-and-wait proposition. My NPD wants to know exactly what time she's going in because there's a meeting he wants to go to and bring a fruit tray or something. This is not a work meeting; this is a meeting that the only reason why he can attend at all is because he's taking off for Lola's surgery! Then he was asking me if he should take off the whole day. This means that he'll take off the whole day and will spend hardly anytime with her; he's got other stuff planned, but he needs me to say the words to legitimize him. When I said, "Whatever," he called me stupid. I told him I didn't have any meetings or any other plans to schedule around. My daughter was having surgery and I was off. Period.

Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

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