OK. Another similarity. The "list of demands" as I refer to it.
Here was mine issued via email to my work It was a 2 page letter outlining my every fault. Here are the highlights:
1. Not enough sex. Not enough and not interesting enough. This indicated to him that I didn't love him anymore - that's what he said.
2. Too much clutter in the house and garage. Yup, all of it is mine.
3. My personal health issues, which at the time were back and neck pain due to a 3 car accident that I had been in in December, chronic allergy and sinus issues, and depression. I think the frequent visits to the chiropractor for the back stuff really bothered him - like it was taking away from his time.
4. Differences in parenting / discipline styles. We needed to be on the "same page". As if I'd jump over to his page on that!
5. The kids are tardy to school too much. Now, I admit that this was a problem, but enough to end a marriage over???
6. My eating habits. I had to clarify this with him because it was so bizarre. I said, "are you talking about my weight??" I am overweight, but he is too. His reply? "No, you always like to have a snack or dessert at night before bed. That is too late to be eating. It's not good for you or the kids. WTF?? This was the first I'd heard him even mention this "concern".
Honestly, this list was so bizarre, that I basically dismissed it after talking with him about it. About a month later, I got a follow-up email. This time, he said that since I refused to make the changes that he asked for that he was uncertain of the future of our marriage.
Of course at this time, I called him out on an EA with our friend. He denied. They were "just friends".
So about a month later he decided to start looking for an apartment.
Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson
oh, honey....I'm so very sorry...
Another way they 'use' us for their own needs.
I think every single one of us feels 'used' by them and especially, it seems, there is a sexual component in there somewhere. I know that I felt very used by him in many ways. Sexually was just one of them.
I'm so sorry that he did that to you. He's sick.
Tulsa Area Coffee Buddy
Oh, HB, first off let me say that I'm so sorry that you had to experience what you did as a young girl.
I admire the inner strength that you obviously possess. It always comes through in your posts.
Now, on that fucktard NPD....
There are no words for the depravity of him getting off on horrible, painful memories of immoral acts that were perpetrated on you as an innocent child.
I am so mad at him for you, HB! That he would lure you into discussing this, presumably under the guise of helping you, and then to use your words and descriptions for sexual arousal? That is truly unthinkable.
I wasn't getting my hair cut because we didn't have the $$$ because we were paying off a killer monthly back CS payment on his kids from a previous M.
I wouldn't go to the Dr. when I was sick because we couldn't afford that either.
I cut back on our monthly expenses as much as I could to make ends meet.
I bought the kids' clothes at thrift stores.
I didn't buy clothes for myself because the kids came first.
I didn't mind doing these things so much except for the resentment I felt for my kids having to do without so we could pay the CS.
So now, all this is excuses for him to use for him not being happy in his M.
This part really got to me
like it was taking away from his time.
My WH, when he was not traveling to clients, would work from home. There were days when he would ask me if I could stay home and spend time with him and, early on, of course I wanted to spend time with him, so I would make sure that I planned days to spend at the house. On those days, what do you think happened?
He stayed upstairs, working, conference calls, etc... If I was fixing lunch for myself, I would ask him if he wanted any and he would say that he would be down "in a minute" to eat lunch with me....it would end up being HOURS. So, I ended up arranging my day and my time to spend with him and he would never acknowledge that I was even IN the house.
I talked with him about this one time (his chronic lateness - sometimes DAYS later than he led me to believe) and I explained that (in an absolutely horrible analogy) that I felt like Princess Leia chained at the feet of Jabba the Hut. I know, I know...bad example...however...
The point was, that he created certain expectations and, based on my expectations, I would rearrange my schedule, the schedules of my kids, turn down invitations with friends or put off things that I needed to do in order to accommodate him. And then he would not follow through!!!!!
I felt so jerked around and resentful that it all just spilled out one day in the Leia/Hut example....
There was actually an entire WEEK when he said he would be home on Monday evening - so I fixed a nice dinner for him (see Mom? I'm trying) and he ended up not showing and not calling me to tell me that he had decided to stay in the city at the apartment until the next day.....did he show up on Tuesday? No...said he'd shoot for Wednesday. Why don't we meet for dinner Wed. night? Great...oh, wait! 10 minutes before I leave the house to meet him, and having turned down other dinner invites for that night he says he got caught up on a conf. call and now is too tired to drive up to our house.
Thursday, the same shit....Friday...he decides to come home and all I have in the fridge for dinner is rotting food bought at the beginning of the week......
So, when he finally DOES get home (on Friday night) I tell him I need to go to the store Saturday morning for groceries...and he gets pissy and give me the silent treatment the whole weekend because I was AVOIDING HIM!
sheesh.....ya just can't win...
You know how you always think it's you?
Yep. It takes a long time to crawl out from underneath that thinking and breathe the air that says "its NOT *you*".
Oh, HB...you have endured so much. It makes me almost IRATE that he made you question your own self-worth and "thinking." But I totally know how it happens and how horrible it is to REALIZE that it happened, and then to begin the long crawl back to yourself.
I posted something in S&D that makes sense now that I read it ( that obviously doesn't happen very often!). I have lived WITH my STBXWTFH (and still do) this entire time. It feels like I've endured open-heart surgery without anesthesia. Honestly.
Your ex(?) is sick. Plain and simple. To become aroused because of the violent attack of his beloved WIFE, as a CHILD, is seriously sick. There is no other way to say it, and you should NOT be embarrassed because of his behavior.
But I know that it takes a LONG time to get past feeling "embarrassed" or humiliated by THEIR behavior!
Sometimes I am embarrassed by what I have TOLERATED. I don't even TELL people in real life about all of this. They wouldn't understand half of it, and the other stuff? They would question MY sanity!
YOU, my dear, have all that times twelve. You're dealing with the ultimate loss (Niki), the overwhelming responsibility of maintaining being a parent to your son during that time, and recovering from the aftershocks of living with an N.
You are the epitome of *strong*, but don't feel like you always HAVE to be (strong)!! Give yourself to permission to feel the things that you *do* and live through it. It is the ONLY way that I have survived!! Acknowledging the hurt, the pain, the agony, and THEN, realizing that I am still standing....I will survive, and that is empowering.
I think what he was doing when he was getting 'off' while hearing of your violent attack was SICK, sociopathic behavior. Narcissistic or not, he was seriously SICK for getting aroused because of it. I am going to go out on a limb here, HB, and bear with me. Lots of women have those kinds of sexual fantasies (of being forced to have sex, etc), but it is VERY different from the violent rape/attack of an eleven year old girl. Normal sexual fantasies do not involve children, nor do they involve the hurt/pain of loved ones.
If nothing else, it should have SICKENED him. This absolutely infuriates me! My daughter was sexually abused by my ex-husband from the age of 6-12. I almost PUKE when I think of your ex...
This was never you, it will never BE about you. Its HIS to own, HIS to live with, and HIS to excuse.
The sexual aspect of N's are so varied. Some use it as a form of control, some use it as a form of supply. Whatever, its not healthy in any meaning of the word.
HB, I hope you REALLY know someday what a great person you ARE. I know that the N's *take* from us, and I know what it takes to hang on and rebuild what we *were*. I hope you do this, because the world needs more people like you. And your son does too. I know that Niki would be proud of you, knowing that you lived a happy life like she did. You are a strong person and need to remember that every single day. You need to remember that you are worthy, that you enjoy living, that you enjoy your son, that you are a person with feelings, thoughts and desires. You need to be okay with wanting "more" from life. Its okay!!!!
((hugs from jonesey))
I was also going to school during all of this and taking care of our kids. Everything was always my fault and everything he did was because of me and of course that was my fault.
He has never taken blame for anything. He even told me before he walked out that he was not sorry for anything,even said that several times since then.
What cjones said - x12!
She's exactly right. YOU have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about. We all admire the hell out of you and just wish that we had an ounce of your strength!
Hang in there!!!
(ETA - damn right I'm hotter than Leia!!! Too bad he's just like Jabba the Hut)
[This message edited by Balancing Act at 11:05 PM, July 12th (Saturday)]
Stop it. Stop blaming yourselves!!
These people are seriously screwed up and their biggest defense (against themselves) is the alloplastic defense system of blaming YOU for everything.
The A, the weather, the AID epidemic, their gray hair, their unhappiness..on and on and on.
Of COURSE its all YOUR fault!! (in a *not* sorta way!! )
It was NEVER your fault, and it never WILL be!!
Isn't it amazing when you think about all the things that *we* did to try to appease them? Isn't it freaking AMAZING when you think about all the things we did to try and live WITH them?
yeah. So stop it.
Real people work together without the blame. There is give and take in relationships and problems are dealt with in a healthy manner. Even if it occurs with screaming matches, the problems will be worked out. There is no sulking, no silent treatment, no "punishment"...
If any of you have *not* read Sam Vaknins book, please do. Yes, he is an admitted narcissist himself, but his book is awesome. EVERYTHING is explained. EVERYTHING is covered.
And the most notable thought? You cannot change them and you cannot make them *normal*. Run. Do not look back. Mitigate the damages to yourself and your children when your realize what you're dealing with. There is NO dealing with or living with these people.
Do not EVER blame yourself. Do not EVER take responsibility for THEIR behavior. Do not ever be embarrassed by the way they treat you (like I was).
They are no reflection on *you*.
I hate it when I realize how they make you all feel so badly about yourselves. I HATE it! You are all so awesomely awesome. To have someone come into your life that tries to tear you down ~ can you IMAGINE feeling like doing that to someone you love? Even to your N that was so utterly abusive its not funny? Hell no!
Real people don't *try* to hurt each other.
You are all so awesome and deserving of much better. Go get it.
I've seen your sense of humor at work here and you've made me laugh and brightened my day many times when I was deep in the pit of all the A and D anxiety.
No, ok, seriously...I have avoided his book BECAUSE of his confessed narcissism! That's how scary these people are to me now.
I know I probably should read it...does it give you a list of names of all the NPDs in the world so that we can avoid them like the plague they are? The only things I'm reading now are books that help me learn to identify them so that I can get far, far away....
Jonesy, I don't blame myself.
I was just listing his excuses he used to justify what he did.
I don't drink his Koolaid anymore.
I know what he is and what he's done to me.
And he's not gonna do it anymore.
I don't care anymore that he talks to his OW's on his 2 cwelly phones.
In fact I'm to the point I'd rather he talked to them instead of me.
does it give you a list of names of all the NPDs in the world
BA, you crack me up!
I want that list too.
Wonder how often it gets updated.
I've even got a *confession*. I've exchanged correspondence with Vaknin!! No lie!! I wrote to him about a couple of issues, long ago, when I was first starting to realize what ta hell I was dealing with (and didn't really want to digest). I was in denial for quite a while ~ suspecting is one thing, knowing for sure is another (basically, a *death sentence* for any relationship).
He offers the unusual insight of actually BEING a narcissist himself. I find that his words mean much more to me than a Phd, simply because he KNOWS the thought processes. He has chosen to receive his N-supply from the world by being an "authority" on the subject. Okay. Thats fine. At least its someone who lies inside the brain of one!! Seriously ~ his book is expensive, but worth it. It will take you an hour to read, simply because it is almost captivating. You will see yourself in almost every situation.
It may not give you a list of all the N's in the world, but it certainly gives you the power to *understand*. To make it real, and to make it understandable. It makes it much more NOT your fault.
Seriously, you should read it.
I read it and then re-read it. I couldn't believe the similarities. I also had to put it away for a while because I focused too much on the "stuff" of it all. I felt like I was trying to explain all of his behaviors by understanding them (through the book). To hell with that, I was FAR more educated that I ever WANTED to be on narcissism, I needed to work on gaining my SELF back!!
HB..you are not the first person to say that they would be in 'jail for murder' if they had to live with him!! Thats too funny because I've felt only a minimal amount of real anger or rage towards him. Most of it has been hurt. Seriously. Hurt because of his words, actions or behaviors. I was angry for a while, just until I discovered what I was dealing with. A completely dysfunctional human being. And its not just me ~ everyone who knows him, all of his kids, his ex, all of my friends, my family, etc..they ALL say he is beyond nuts.
Maybe thats what makes it easier ~ I don't have to deal with other people thinking he's a "nice guy." They all have SEEN him in action!!
If nothing else, I figure what doesn't kill me gives me bigger boobs. Ta hell with character, I've got enough.
You all are the best ever. For real.
ETA: The "s" to boob because yeah, I've got two of them puppies...
[This message edited by cjonesjag at 11:35 PM, July 12th (Saturday)]
I had to go put that in the quote thread becuse I thought it was so funny.
I just went and looked ~ please add the (s) that I edited in my original post because I DO have two of them.
And they are freakin huge and growing every day...
Thirty six double dee's. Yeah, I've even considered reduction surgery! But I am tall (5'8") and can *carry them*. I'm not skinny and not huge either. Kind of average ~ size 9/10, give or take, depending on the stress level.
OH! And I'm not a BLONDE like a lot of people think I am here! Long brown hair. (nothing against blondes, I've just had MANY people tell me that they are surprised when they see my myspace.com page and see that I am a darkhaired person).