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User Topic: N. P.D Thread - Part VI
throttled
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Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, August 12th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What about the beginning of the separation, where you tell him that you are done with the marriage, that you need to move on. Is it best just to stay factual?


Trust your hunches. They're usually based on facts filed away just below the conscious level. - Dr. Joyce Brothers

Posts: 191 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: hell would be an step up
Ron7127
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Member # 10145
Default  Posted: 8:09 PM, August 12th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it best to just serve the N without warning, if possible. If not, then simply tell the N you are done and seperating. No discussion. They are masters of turning the tables and we are accustomed to engaging and defending ourselves. Just do it and don't look back.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
throttled
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Member # 20582
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, August 12th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've already spoiled the element of surprise. I couldn't take any more of the blameshifting and I left to go stay with my mom and dad with our children. Right now I am just mentally exhausted, not sure which way to go. It is financially beneficial for me to stick it out at least one more year. I don't know if I can do that unless I decide to repress, placate and plan a better divorce.

Also since we have children together I thought that we should be able to work out something amicable. I fear it is not going to be possible. How could I not know that I was married to this type of person? I'm so afraid he is going to use the children against me.


Trust your hunches. They're usually based on facts filed away just below the conscious level. - Dr. Joyce Brothers

Posts: 191 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: hell would be an step up
itsabattle
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Default  Posted: 2:10 AM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My experience in divorcing an npd freak is as follows: I kept everything secret when he was still living in the house. I had post from solicitors sent to a close friends house. When he did eventually leave I spent a fortune on a red-hot solicitor. I took it all to court as this was the one thing he did not like. He wanted a "quiet" divorce with no solicitors involved! He never told me where he lived so I had to go through a long process of finding him so the divorce papers could be sereved on him. It was a long, difficult process and I had to dig deep many times to find the strength to keep fighting him. However, I did not budge because I quickly realised that there could be no reasonable negotiation with a freak.
I cannot stress it enough that you have to have decent legal advice to get through this as well as the strength to stick to your guns. It is not easy but you have to remember that you cannot negotiate with this people because they are NOT NORMAL!! I read somewhere on here that divorcing an npd feak is the hardest thing to do. It is but so many of us on here are proof it can be done.
Believing in yourself is difficult as we have had years of abuse but you have to. Otherwise they have won and we don't want that do we?? Because if you give up the tribe won't be happy!! Keep fighting.

Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
cielo
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Member # 13248
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Throttled -

In my opinion, you cannot successfully reconcile or live with a true NPD. I've tried. We are divorced.

If you are making a separation or divorce decision, here is the stuff I think it is important for you to know. The first post is from CatWoman (another poster who divorced a diagnosed NPD) The other post is mine (again, XH is diagnosed NPD)


**
I divorced a narcissist. To say that it was its own special ring of hell is an understatement.

Keep all correspondance to between him and your attorney. Costs more, but it is much more preferable.
Be prepared for him to try and destroy you on every single level. Nothing is sacred to the narcissist. Nothing.

Keep everything to e-mail. Everything. Do not have a conversation with him and do not meet with him. Let your attorney handle that.

Divorcing a narcissist is extraordinarily difficult, but it has to happen in order for you to lead a fairly normal life. I never realized how abnormal my life was until I divorced the narcissist I was married to.

--Cat

**
I am late getting into this as far as responses go, but I've been reading all along.
My XH is also a diagnosed NPD (there are a few of us here who have x-spouses with literal diagnoses... it's a different world than most). He is also a big-shot attorney. Our divorce took 15 months. I read your H's latest text and it brought back lots of triggery memories.

May I make a few suggestions and/or comments?

No contact is absolutely the way to go. None whatsoever. He is already following the pattern of NPDs. In all cases, what the NPD wants is information. They want to know what you know, how you know it, what you're going to do with it, and how they can disprove it or dismantle its damaging effect on them. So they set out to get the info and hide their motives at the same time: First contact is friendly, couched as "helpful" (hence the weird emails after being served). When that doesn't work, next comes the "I'm disappointed in your behavior" approach. It is meant to "shame" you into defending your position. In defending yourself from shame, the hope is that you will offer up information that supports your claim of "reasonableness" or "goodness". When that step doesn't work, the next one will be false blame. They will blame you of one thing (that they know you haven't done) in the hopes that you will respond with, "I didn't do THAT, I did THIS." (It's the details of the "THIS" information that they've been after all along.) Side note: it took me awhile on the learning curve to realize that was what he was doing in my case. Example: he wanted to know if I was dating who he suspected I was. So he accused me of introducing our kids to so-and-so when we were going out and telling me how upset my kids were about it. My response, of course, was, "I'm not dating so-and-so. He's a business associate and the kids know that. I'm dating "different" so-and-so and I haven't even introduced them to the children yet." Here I am defending that I'm a good mother that doesn't put her kids in stress by introducing them to her boyfriends during early stage dating... when what he wanted to know all along was who I was dating. It took me a little longer to wise up to that approach. But now I can sniff it out a mile away.

Your WH is doing that with his comments about what people know... when you defend yourself by telling him what you have NOT told people, what he really wants is for you to elaborate on what you HAVE told others and who all you have told. STAY SILENT. Say nothing.

Finally, when those approaches don't work, and the frustration continues to peak... they get just plain aggressive, rude, nasty and cutthroat. I'm afraid that may very well be the next step. Expect YOUR reputation to be trashed throughout the common community you share. Expect wild accusations and assertions in his counter-claim. Oh, and expect a counter-claim for divorce. He won't want to be the defendant; he'll want to be the plaintiff. (it's an ego thing).

Katherine41 is right. No attention. None. NPDs are attention-junkies. Obviously positive attention is their favorite. But regardless, they'll take negative attention over no attention any day.

Stay removed, distanced... and if at all possible... unemotional. Get a lawyer to handle ALL communications. (Sounds like you're doing that.)

Word of advice: my NPD XH got so vicious that I finally had to ask another person to even read the emails that came to me from him. It's a good thing you have a rule sending them to a specific folder. But, if things get really bad, and he is able to undermine your confidence by the pot-shots he takes at you, find someone else to filter through the emails. The ones that you should see, the ones you should ignore, the ones that you should forward on to your atty.

I know there were plenty of really ugly things said to me the last four months of the divorce (when XH was in the death-throws of losing in the divorce... and was just determined to take me down with him), that I never saw... because my friend read, saved, forward, and deleted for me. It helped my emotional health at a time that I was emotionally drained.
Just a thought.

Final note: If you do feel like you need to react to something he says/does... give yourself the "3-day rule". Since most knee-jerk reactions are caused by surprise or pain, I learned to wait three days before I actually DID any of the things I considered in response. If three days later, it still seemed like a good thing to do, I did it. If after three days, I had calmed and could see that it was more baiting that substantive differences, I had saved myself from engaging in what was really nothing more than a bid for attention so he could continue to attack.

I'm sorry you're going through this. It will be a long haul. But, you have lots of support and a good, rational head on your shoulders. That rational head will serve you well. The one thing NPDs lose as they lose control is their power to be reasonable. Once that starts, they WILL make mistakes that you can capitalize on to show them for who they are and to get what you believe you deserve as you dissolve this marriage.
Best of luck
Cielo

I forgot to add...
when they get to the cutthroat stage, they will tell you it is YOUR FAULT that they have to treat you this way. If you had just been reasonable back when they were asking X, Y or Z, or needing A, B, or C, then they wouldn't have to do what they are doing now. But, alas, you have brought this on yourself by your bad behavior... and must be taught a lesson.

Again, this is all for them. The reasons are two-fold: one, to be able to kick you when you are down because they simply want to... you've spoiled their fun. You aren't doing what they want you to do. And two, they are tenacious as trying to get you to weaken or slip in the future. They may have lost the battle they are now angry about, but they are determined to make you feel so bad (or afraid of their wrath) afterwards that the next time you'll hesitate to fight so hard when they pull you into another conflict.

It's exhausting. But, over time, you do develop somewhat of a thick skin about it.

Also, you must go in understanding that there is NOTHING they will not do. You cannot think you can count on anything about your past relationship, your previous meaningful or bonding times together keeping them from doing whatever it takes to get to you. There will be nothing sacred. NOTHING. You think they "would never" involve the children in this or that? Wrong. They will if they think it helps them or simply hurts you. They will not care whether or not it hurts the children.

The metaphor of the onion is applicable when dealing with an NPD. It doesn't matter what layer they pull off that makes you cry. You can NEVER say, "okay, yes, they did that... that I thought they would never do..., but they'll never do "this" (the next level deeper of pain or maliciousness or sneakiness or betrayal. They will.
Trust me, I know. So does Catwoman. In fact, she might be another one to give you some good advice.

[This message edited by cielo at 12:38 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)]


1st D-day: July 2005
14th D-Day: May 2007
If there is a 15th D-day, I'm done.
"Keep on beginning and failing. Each time you fail, start all over again."
The only way OUT is THROUGH.

Posts: 1765 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Not where I want to be
veritas
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Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Break out the tinfoil hats, boys and girls; Paranoid Pete is back!

Yes, Paranoid Pete, that Paragon of the Paranormal, has returned for another psychobilly freakout.

The Russian-Georgian conflict, which has been going on for years, is just now freaking him out. This is going to be the next World War.

As usual, the backstabbing, cutthroat people he works with are freaking him out.

But what has him most up in arms is the fact that frogs are disappearing from the planet due to global warming! What the hell is up with that! Maybe the rays are bouncing off the tinfoil and heating up the globe? He can't do anything about it, and it just KILLS HIM...

So I got a rant last night about how broken I am because I come here, and if I'm so damaged, then he's just at the point where he needs to find someone less broken and find happiness in breaking them instead... I suggest he begin with The Troll...

*and now, back to your regularly scheduled broadcast*


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
throttled
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Member # 20582
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cielo, your post is very helpful. I appreciate this is what I need to during our trial separation.

He brought home a separation worksheet, which was where we decided on child custody, property, etc... I told him I wasn't doing anything without speaking to a lawyer first. He DID NOT like that, said I didn't know how a divorce was supposed to work. Guess since I'm wife number three he is right!

when they get to the cutthroat stage, they will tell you it is YOUR FAULT that they have to treat you this way. If you had just been reasonable back when they were asking X, Y or Z, or needing A, B, or C, then they wouldn't have to do what they are doing now.

I recieved a taste of this a few days ago and it drove me out of the house. It was my fault he had to hurt my feelings because I kept pushing him for the truth. WTF???

veritas, if you are married to paranoid pete, I am married to perfection pete, he can go on for 20 minutes about why a coffee filter is not shaped as effeciently as it should be. I don't have the tolerance to listen to his nonsensical bullshit like I used to pre-A.

I'd get some kids to trap some toads, put them in his shoes... Really freak him out...


Trust your hunches. They're usually based on facts filed away just below the conscious level. - Dr. Joyce Brothers

Posts: 191 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: hell would be an step up
veritas
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Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

veritas, if you are married to paranoid pete, I am married to perfection pete, he can go on for 20 minutes about why a coffee filter is not shaped as effeciently as it should be. I don't have the tolerance to listen to his nonsensical bullshit like I used to pre-A.

Oh honey, there's only one right way to do things. We have a double set of cabinets next to the refrigerator. Apparently, when I packed the house by my damned self because his job had sent him to Puerto Rico, I did it INCORRECTLY. I put the plates over the microwave in the first set and the cups in the second set. I should have put cups in the first set because the cups should always go next to the refrigerator... EVERYBODY knows that... except his parents and mine... the rant about that went on for a few days...

I'd get some kids to trap some toads, put them in his shoes... Really freak him out...

Or maybe just get a frog screensaver and sneak it on his computer...


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Posts: 6023 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
scout
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Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, August 13th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Scout, you got sand. ~DS

Posts: 11741 | Registered: Apr 2004 | From: Solitary refinement
woundedby2
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Default  Posted: 12:24 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey, Tribe! You all have been busy while I was away.

I had a great trip with my kids. We were gone for 4 days on a mini-vacation. It was very fun, and we ended our trip at my parents' house. It was nice since today is my B-day. Good to be with loved ones on these days. They bought me a new gas grill (Asshat took our beautiful stainless grill). At least my new one is all mine.

((((throttled))))
So sorry you're going through this with one of the NPD types. This is a long, horrible battle that you are in for. You have gotten some excellent advice. I am right in the middle of divorcing my whack-job NPD. Some things I learned (some the hard way):

You cannot negotiate with them. What is "fair" to them is exactly what they want.

When you do not bend over backward for them - you are "inflexible" and "unreasonable".

They will use the kids against you. They will put them in the middle. Quiz them. Tell them details of the business end of the D. Then they will accuse you of doing these things to them.

They will expose your kids to their affair partner way too soon. The kids will be so confused and hurt. They will blame you for putting notions into their heads.

They will make you look bad/crazy to everyone they can. Do not expect to be keeping any of the "friends".

They will resort to doing really crazy shit. Mine was stalking me, making sexual advances, calling at all hours, snooping through things at the house when he was there. Do not be surprised by the bizarre things they can and will resort to.

You need an attorney to get away from these people. It will cost you a lot of money. They will drag things out, cause you to have to file extra motions, request special orders, etc. Then they will blame you for running up the attorneys' bills.

It will get worse. It will likely get very, very ugly. It might even get scary for you. Be prepared for anything. Do what you have to do to protect yourself and your children. Again, I'm so sorry that you are dealing with one of these freaks. Hugs to you.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7635 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
Heartless Bytchh
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Default  Posted: 12:36 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WB2, my FOTY has done all of this.
They will expose your kids to their affair partner way too soon. The kids will be so confused and hurt. They will blame you for putting notions into their heads.

They will make you look bad/crazy to everyone they can. Do not expect to be keeping any of the "friends".

They will resort to doing really crazy shit. Mine was stalking me, making sexual advances, calling at all hours, snooping through things at the house when he was there. Do not be surprised by the bizarre things they can and will resort to.

Just like the deal at Christmas when he told everyone I stole the kids' xmas money.

Don't get me started.


Woodchipper pretty much trumps everything.-Rufus Turner
Sometimes I feel like SI is that person who says... "if you can't say anything nice... come sit by me!"-rumorhasit

Posts: 6061 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: Another day in Paradise
itsabattle
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Default  Posted: 12:53 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is some brilliant advice on here in the last few posts - a lot of which I followed and it proved to be really really helpful.
It really is a case of "anything goes" with an npd freak. There really are no boundries. I found the comments about the accusations during a divorce to be interesting - my ex accussed me of mental cruelty!! The irony!!

I had counselling yesterday and we talked about how he depersonalised me. How he made me an object with no feelings as it enabled him to be so cruel. I know I keep looking for answers about npd and I probably won't get all of the answers, but I feel that this goes some way to explaining his treatment of me.
We also talked about my triggers and she thinks the things that freak me out are reactions to the past. I feel comforted to realise I am not going mad!
It really is a long old road to get over this.
Does anyone have any idea what the stages of emotions you have to go through? The counsellor thinks I am getting beyond anger, onto loss. I was wondering how many stages to expect?

Vee - Could you cook paranoid pete a french meal? Some lovely garlicy frogs legs????


Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
Heartless Bytchh
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Default  Posted: 1:01 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it's like the 5 stages of grief.


Woodchipper pretty much trumps everything.-Rufus Turner
Sometimes I feel like SI is that person who says... "if you can't say anything nice... come sit by me!"-rumorhasit

Posts: 6061 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: Another day in Paradise
dreamlife
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Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 4:24 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The 5 stages of grief:

Denial

Anger

Bargaining

Depression

Acceptance

(((((hugs))))


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
Heartless Bytchh
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Default  Posted: 7:13 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Dreamy.
I couldn't remember all five of them.

I also think a person can hit more than one at the same time.


Woodchipper pretty much trumps everything.-Rufus Turner
Sometimes I feel like SI is that person who says... "if you can't say anything nice... come sit by me!"-rumorhasit

Posts: 6061 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: Another day in Paradise
woundedby2
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Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Tribe)))

Itsa, I'm glad you were able to get to your IC. Your comment about the depersonalization - spot on.
It's not until we're free of them that we can really see this. I was totally objectified by my NPD.

HB, the strange NPD behaviors -- weird how they all do so many of the exact same things, isn't it? I was going through the stalking episode when I first started posting here on the NPD thread. I got great advice on changing the locks, etc, but one of the most memorable and to-the-point pieces of advice was this from jj:

Padlock the damn back gate too if you can.

You know, that just about sums it up. You just cannot trust them at all. You never know what kind of whacky they will come up with next. That reminds me - I need to take the padlock off the back gate so DS can put the trash out today.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7635 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
lied2
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Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just like the deal at Christmas when he told everyone I stole the kids' xmas money.

I mentioned that line to my oldest and he said "yeah dad said that to you too"

Divorcing these creatures is difficult if that is what they don't want. Even if they do want it they will fight you tooth and nail for everthing when the realize that it is going to cut into their future fun to not have everything they had in the marriage (remember they think everything is theirs and that you own nothing. All the assets of the marriage and everything you had before marriage are theirs from their perspective so you should leave with just the shirt on your back and the fact that you can leave with that should make you cry with gratefulness that they didn't take that from you too)

They will do anything to make you look like the vendictive one. If you stand up to them they will terrorize you in hopes that you will back down like you did in the past. They will use everyone around you to manipulate you and harrass you. If family and friends can't be manipulated they will move on to aquaintances, new friends and strangers, anyone they can.

As fro any children, they don't want to have custody but will expect to have full custody just because it is what you want. Heaven forbid that they actually should pay support of any kind. They have already given you a free ride for years, (because they feel that being married to them and mutually supporting each other in marriage is you getting a free ride, even if you supported them). They should not have to support their children, that is your job and you should provide THEIR children with the absolute best even if you have to debt yourself into poverty to do it, obviously with no help from them. If the courts order anything it is because they are horrible for expecting a parent to care for their children and court orders are only suggestions; aren't they? How dare the courts make them do anything!!!!

My divorce was long and expensive and would have been far worse if he had not list custody because of child abuse before I filed anything. He felt he owed me nothing, tried to sell the house out from under us because he deserved to live in a new house (who cares where the children and I live). I should go and work, care for the kids and get nothing from him. Oh and more than 1/2 the contents of the house was not enough, he wanted it all and kept asking the courts for more 2 1/2 years after he left even though he was living in a rented room and anything he took had to go into storage.

NC and go through the lawyer. If it is anything like my divorce every small step in the settlement will have to be forced by the courts but eventually you run out of things to settle and it is finally over. Mine came to being settled 2 days before trial. I had to make quite a few sacrifices to keep from having to go to trial but it was worth it in the end.

Oh and get the best lawyer you can. preferably one who is a tough nut and can't be rattled. The N will definitally try. my lawyer was screamed at berated etc. his lawyer was as well. It was horrible for them as well.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
Heartless Bytchh
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Member # 12347
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

weird how they all do so many of the exact same things, isn't it?

I was thinking the same thing as I was reading everyones posts.

That has to be a weakness we could use to our advantage.

L2, I think my stbx wants to stay M so he won't have to pay CS or any other M assets to me that we shared or built up together over the yrs.
Granted, they don't amount to much, but it's better than a kick in the ass.

I feel like he wants me to stay in this limbo hell on the sidelines while he pursues his R w/ those OW.
And for me to just accept anything he does.

That ain't happenin', gf.


Woodchipper pretty much trumps everything.-Rufus Turner
Sometimes I feel like SI is that person who says... "if you can't say anything nice... come sit by me!"-rumorhasit

Posts: 6061 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: Another day in Paradise
sadtoo
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Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, August 14th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

throttled,
You cannot negotiate with an NPD. I strongly urge you against even trying.

NPD's are so self-serving and self-centered that they are only thinking of their OWN outcome. They don't care if you or even their own children walk away with a dime or a place to live. Any little thing you get will be considered a "slight" against him and he will resort to what ever it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.

If you enter into any sort of negotiations with him, be prepared for him to lie, make phoney offers, make you promises (that he swears are true on the lives of his children) that were never true, and most important be prepared to get screwed BIG TIME.

I remember mine calling and trying to convince me that he had spoken to our judge personally and said that the judge told him blah, blah, blah..... At first I was scared thinking "what if that's true??" But then my common sense kicked in and I KNEW that no judge is going to have a direct conversation with a defendant or plaintiff without at the very least opposing counsel there too. But this is an example of what they are capable of doing.

The best way to deal with them is through the element of surprise and through an attorney. I know it's more expensive, but you will come out of this in much better shape both financially AND emotionally.

Good luck.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 2:58 PM, August 14th (Thursday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


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