In my experience they don't even feel like others have feelings at all and they have very limited feelings so there would be no guilt (or very little and then only a reflection of someone else's emotion).
The loving things others do just to fit in works but then when she was "found" out to have lied about her experiences she would likely have hid that and blames some else (it was a bad day, I have a different way of doing it and mine is better etc.) Likely fight into a huge rage because the mask might just be slipping.
They tend to have huge and noticable extremes, to the point of being scary.
The thing is that the disorder is very hard to diagnose and often these people can fool the pros so for us to say someone is or isn't is really not accurate at all. I have never had hard proof mine is but the Doctor aluded to it as mich as he professionally could saying that my ex has serious mantal health problems (more diagnoses than he had already told us about directly) that he was not going to get better, I need to get away from him because he was abusive and was escalating because of his mental health issues. Very few disorders don't get better and after 5 years of therapy and all the theraputic help they could give him he got worse instead of better.
My concern with you communicating with the OW's H is that it still connects you to the situation. He needs help and friendship from someone other than you expecially if you are attempting to save the relationship and yourself. These people are nightmares and they really mess up those around them as well. In a word RUN
[This message edited by lied2 at 1:53 PM, October 14th (Tuesday)]
The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.
A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.
I do think she is trying to blame the A on my H. She is painting herself as victim to her H.
Just like any disorder NPD ranges from mild impairment to severe. She may be a milder case, but again, I realize I am not a psychiatrist.
[This message edited by Recoveringwife at 2:06 PM, October 14th (Tuesday)]
Mainly, she was forced to reveal the details of the affair, because if she didn't my H would. ... It was not like she fell apart because of the letter, but more held up against a wall with no where to go.
That's what I'm saying: for an NPD, there's always somewhere to go. She could have done nothing and waited for her husband to confront her, which would be a typical NPD reaction. Even so, she could have lied.
She acted like she was unaffected by the letter...saying that "the voice fell flat".
All that means is that she doesn't believe he wrote it because apparently, it's a huge aboutface from the things they talked about and agreed upon back then. I don't know your husband well enough to say yay or nay, but I can see where she might get that impression. There might still be some denial. That doesn't mean NPD.
My advice would be to go back and actually read some of the histories of people here. See what NPD's do when they are "backed up against the wall." They definitely don't roll over and concede. Your husband's letter would have been like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Negating everything she said, taking away her fantasies, and making her look like a fool? Those are fighting words to a narcissist.
And like lied2 said, if she really is narcissistic, you don't want to keep a connection with her. Even if it's through her husband.
I'm no psychiatrist either, and my husband has not been formally diagnosed, mainly because he has quit every therapist that he has gone to, but like lied2, I was "warned" by the MC that we saw once.
[This message edited by veritas at 2:11 PM, October 14th (Tuesday)]
Seems to live in own self-created reality. Lies to self.
Her H told me she has always been very selfish and self-centered. My H said this also.
She was ALWAYS complaining. She never got enough recognition. SHe never got her shot. She should get somewhere faster because she was older...etc. She didn't get enough credit for her ideas...and on and on. Meanwhile her performance lagged behind others.
She used my H as a vehicle to complain and to get whatever she wanted at work (because he was in power position). And he's very sensitive...good target for that.
She has a sense of entitlement and lack of empathy. She started hitting hard on my husband a few weeks after I gave birth to a child. Coincidence? I think not.
Envy. Told my H people were just jealous of her because she is pretty and talented. (His jaw dropped at this even while in the fog)
Brushed off others achievements, even my H's, while trying to promote her own ideas. Tried to kiss his ass to get what she wanted. Wanted to associate with him because he was successful in the field.
Was obsessed with wanting to leave HER mark on something/anything. Was always complaining about not getting her shot. (She was right out of school but didn't go to school until her 30's)
Told my H, her daughter has big brown eyes so she'll be able to get whatever she wants in life. Talked about using her looks to manipulate others.
Requires excessive admiration. Constantly looking for validation from others. This is even why she started the affair. Said she wanted her H to fight for her and to see her pulling away. Her H told me she seeks attention from anyone, even street people. Her H has always been afraid she'd have an affair.
Show arrogant, haughty and patronizing behaviors.
Believes she is 'special' and tries to associate with others who are in positions of power. Her H told me she has always been drawn to men in positions of power. My H had success that she wanted, so she sucked up to him.
Has no sense of humor. Can not laugh at self.
Always talking about how pretty she is and how people always say she's so 'put together'. Would tell people how she was a cheerleader and beauty queen like she was embarrased by it..and then go tell the whole office..
I could go on...
Also, she was totally backed up against the wall by her H. She had been confronted over and over and lied over and over. Her H had started to uncover some details starting in 2006. It wasn't until I phoned her H in the beginning of 2008, and we ganged up on them together that we got the truth.
The lying stuff with Affairs is normal though so I don't attribute that to NPD necessarily.
But I do think the remorse she expressed in her letter to her H is in part a 'mirroring' of the remorse from my H's letter. I went back to read it...she said my H's letter 'lacked depth', which is laughable. I understand the 'voice fell flat' reference, and I could see how she felt this, but I guess from my perspective the letter seems so heartfelt and sincere that I feel like she's choosing not to see it or can't see it, like a narcissist would.
Veritas and Lied to, I appreciate your input and am not trying to argue with what you say. Just trying to make sense of it all in my mind.
I will take your advice and RUN from the situation (not contact her H). I'm sure he's well aware that she's narcissistic anyway so it's kind of pointless to re-engage conversation over that.
[This message edited by Recoveringwife at 7:25 PM, October 14th (Tuesday)]
Some people are just insane and noone really cares what the cause. They mess with people and destroy lives. Beyond that the diagnosis doesn't matter.
Moving on from infidelity is hard for anyone and to have to deal with someone who has serious mental disorders makes it all the worse for everyone.
I do agree with the others about her "forced to reveal the details" situation. A true NPD would continue to lie EVEN faced with a seemingly NO WAY OUT situation. It's just part of their make up. They just don't stop. It's like "lie to the death." They come up with conspiracy scenerios to try and convince their spouse that the OP and the OP spouse are really "out to get" the WS for some crazy reason or another. They completely BLOW UP in the face of confrontation.
Don't ever think that there is a no-way-out situation for an NPD.
My XNPDH had an affair for several years, got his OW pregnant, had the baby and hid it all for most of our marriage. Not only did he deny the affair, but he also denied the paternity test. Then he flipped the whole thing around and told people that I was "seeing things" that I was "on drugs" and "probably mentally ill" because I was saying these things.
The lies never stop.
As for the OW's H. I'd let it go. You don't need to stay in touch with him. He knows what he's dealing with. It really won't matter if he knew weather she was, might be or could be NPD. He's not going to leave or do anything about it until he's good and ready.
You need to think about you and your healing.
[This message edited by sadtoo at 10:48 PM, October 14th (Tuesday)]
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001 (I didn't know)
Remarried 2008 (Happy!)
I think these freaks always try to have a connection with us, it is part of their ownership issues.
RW - you need to think about why it matters to you about ow. You are trying to make sense of a crazy situation but I would direct all of that energy into caring for yourself. Who cares if she is npd? Let her ex-husband deal with her. You are the important one here, yes, we all try to make sense of these types of people but think of yourself now. The past is exactly that, look forward and look after you. It is a tough journey but you can do it. I hope I don't sound harsh here, but I spent a long time thinking of ow and ex, trying to understand the disordered!, until I realised they were no longer important. I was.
I see what you're saying about an NPD never backing down, EVER.
I can't even imagine how horrible it must be to go through life, let alone infidelity, with someone who's NPD. The lying and deceit takes on a whole new level.
I guess I've gone through life thus far naively thinking that people are basically good (what the hell was I thinking), and I just need to process all of this new information and find answers for myself. All of the bits and pieces I've learned about the OW seemed to come together when I read the NPD website.
But I won't try to fix anyone, other than myself.
[This message edited by Recoveringwife at 12:07 PM, October 15th (Wednesday)]
NPD folks cause more trouble for more people, even if they are but peripherally in one's life.
They are fine to deal with, as long as you are not close to them, do not need anything from them, do not need to rely on them, have no need for honesty, openness or genuineness from relationships with others, etc.
They WILL f**cksh**t up. Give them time. You WILL pay the price, in some way shape or other for their follies. It is what it is. It is not what it is not.
If your this far removed from her, even without a diagnosis, keep far away. Even if she isn't "NPD", she's still a flaming, self-centered, self-focused, manipulative, etc. BIOTCH !!! LOL.
So in other words, she still suxass. LOL. You, me, others, do not need folks like that in our lives.
My 2.34 cents.
I think he may be going off the deep end. A few months ago I was going to take a second job and even got hired somewhere but he did not know that I had decided not to take it. Well, he tells me today that last week he was sitting at the other end of the parking lot making my car alarm go off, he has my other set of keys.He said that he seen me come out several times to turn off the alarm. I told him that was funny as I don't actually work there.
Then he got started again about how my best friend and I are lesbian lovers. Oh and now my attorney is a lesbian. He seen my attorney with her girlfriend at the state fair supposedly. I told him that even if she were it really has nothing to do with this divorce and that the only person that is bisexual is him and I have printed documentation of that and to bring all this up in court if he wants but he's going to end up the fool in front of the judge.
I had a lovely conversation over the phone with my NPD STBXH today. He was calling to bitch at my for his paycheck getting garnished because he hasn't been paying child support.
Ain't it always the way... How dare you take what is rightfully your children's!
He said that he seen me come out several times to turn off the alarm. I told him that was funny as I don't actually work there.
I wonder if he's really been buzzing someone else's car, or if the lie just popped out of his mouth and he hoped that you would believe it. Either way, I'd almost be afraid to talk to him. One more crazy call and he might have to be relegated to voicemail/text message status.
I told him that even if she were it really has nothing to do with this divorce and that the only person that is bisexual is him and I have printed documentation of that and to bring all this up in court if he wants but he's going to end up the fool in front of the judge.
Maybe you'll luck out and get a lesbian judge... what a loony!
[This message edited by veritas at 1:04 PM, October 15th (Wednesday)]
What a complete freak.
Oh and son was home early from school and called to ask ex if he wanted to go to a cadet dinner with him. He didn't even answer the phone just picked it up and hung it up. No wonder my kids have a hard time with decent behaviour. Their father is clueless about how to treat people as well.
[This message edited by lied2 at 6:17 PM, October 15th (Wednesday)]
mine has been emailing me wanting to know if he gives me the phone number if I will have and more "A$$hole demands" for him.
"No thank you, you're a big enough asshole as it is."
He wants me to promise to not bring up any other "issues" if he starts seeing the kids again.
What a complete freak.
What the hell does that mean? That unless you cosign all of his behavior, he's going to recuse himself from visitation???
Oh and son was home early from school and called to ask ex if he wanted to go to a cadet dinner with him. He didn't even answer the phone just picked it up and hung it up.
I am going to ask my brother if he would like to go instead.
That might be a good alternative; that way you don't have to worry about the psycho canceling at the last minute. ((lied2's kids)))
My NPD is acting nice. You all KNOW what that means. Something is up. He was called by DS's school about a braces emergency. He actually offered to take DS to the orthodontist. A civil phone call, no raised voices, no accusations, no other agenda. Weird. Creepy. Scary.
Now, I just discovered that he has recently registered at Matchdotcom, so maybe things aren't so great in paradise... Please, God, give me the strength to deal with him if he is going to start trying to reel me back in. There isn't enough "niceness", not enough anything he could do/say/give to even begin to make up for what he's put me through. And I ain't havin' him back... NEVER.
Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson
Please, God, give me the strength to deal with him if he is going to start trying to reel me back in. There isn't enough "niceness", not enough anything he could do/say/give to even begin to make up for what he's put me through. And I ain't havin' him back... NEVER.
And I hope you don't even entertain his nonsense while he waits around for his matches to come in! No cozy chats, nice talks, nothing!
O, and I found out why my freak dropped the harem -- he didn't. The harem dropped HIM. One is married, and the others have serious boyfriends, and, well, they apparently believe that once you get into a serious relationship, you need to have a more casual relationship with other men! Can you believe that? These women who used to let my numbnuts buy them things, and come over and hang out for hours now have morals and principles. Unbelievable.
Of course, it didn't stop his meat-and-potatoes self from going to eat fish tacos at a restaurant he hates just so that he could talk to one of them and impress her with his cosmopolitan tastes ( ).
INSURANCE/ SEX ADDICTION ?:
HOW did you all deal w/ the doctors for meds, therapy, etc. We can't tell our insurance KAISER) that he has SA! And they don't have help for thay anyway.
BUT. We think my WS needs anti-depress. etc...to see the psychiatry wing of Kaiser...as he has ADHD also...(& prob. NPD!!!)
WHAT did you share w/ your med. insur?
I need info ASAP please...thanks!
The ADHD is likely partly driving the impulse control issues (SA) but the NPD makes them so selfish and self-centered that they think they are entitled to their behaviours and can act any ways they want. Usually therapy can help some with the bad behaviours ONLY if they are on track with that idea that they have a problem and they want to change. It is usually a very long a difficult process and the councelor needs to know how to work with the issues. Many of the regular councelors will just make things worse.
I think that the depression and the ADHD should be treated. At times the ADHD can cause the depression because it makes focusing and impulse control so difficult.
Where I live we don't have the issues that I have heard of other places with coverage and diagnosis. I really can't answer that part.
Well, I had to endure a school event last night. The Freak and OW in attendance. Also OW's XH in attendance with SO (who is OW's stepsister). You gettin' all this? Jerry Springer, I know...
So, lots of the old "friends" were there too. Painful reminders of my old life. I'm glad I have the San Diego meet-up to focus on today. Last night was a rough one for me.
Hope everyone is doing well. The thread has been quiet for a few days now. I'm noticing a few of our regular posters seem to be missing. I hope everything is calm for them.