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User Topic: Long Term Affairs XI I
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But he's basically stuck in a rather hopeless mode,

And he's unable to really just feel content, even a bit really, not to mention happy!!

Whimsey, my H is also really depressed. His work has now been severely affected (he just doesnt care anymore); he said on a number of times he doesnt feel happy (and cant remember the last time he did). I have pleaded with him to go onto antideps, but he has refused. His IC suggested Johns Wort (he had it a few times and stopped), and excercise (doesnt have the energy for it).

What I will give him credit for, is that he has been taking an active interest in family matters (helping with the kids, supporting with me with my job, trying to sort out our finances). But I cant help but think that he is doing this to punish himself, KWIM?

Would your H consider anti-deps? Is he in IC? I know my H does find venting to IC v helpful. This might help him manage his depression. What do you think would help kickstart him out of his apathy?

now it looks like I'll have to mourn or at least change my expectations of our R in the future. Guess I'm feeling a little hopeless myself

(((((Whimsey)))))

****

FSA,

I have grandchild (looks like a girl maybe)number 6 on the way.

Wow. Congratulations. I am sure you get this all the time, but yikes...you dont look old enough...

****

Shirley

Anybody feel that maybe their H felt the same way?

Hand up again.

He hasnt admitted it though, but I suspect he did feel that way.And does still now too. there have been times in the past after dday, when i would say to him, "You are so f**ked up!" when he would say or do something really awful. And then he would turn around and say, "And how f**ked up are you for staying with me?"

Makes you really wonder about their FOO, doesnt it?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT, I could say the same about your posts--and others as well. I think that's part of the value of this thread--each of us brings some little point of inspiration to the others.

H was in IC and had to stop cuz of a crisis with the therapist--and he misses that--they had a good R and were working on stuff. He so far is waiting to see if the crisis resolves--hard to face finding another compatible therapist, plus starting over with the whole sad story. We'll see. I also don't think he's clinically depressed, in the sense that he would respond to anti-D's, but it's not inconceivable that it's in the future if he doesn't improve. But he still works just as well, and is doing the work of R for the most part despite his basic feeling of hopelessness. Trouble is, the stuff that is so hopeless to him is not changeable--what happened happened, and the fallout is real and everlasting for all of us. Think I would be depressed too--thank god I'm not a WS.

LostHeart, interesting thought about your H punishing himself by doing what he should as a H, and a WS to boot!! Maybe our H's feel they deserve to be unhappy after what they did? That doesn't seem to be a sustainable outlook in the long run, though. Gotta get tired of punishing themselves sometime.

If I really thought that, I'd be even more suspicious and paranoid than I already am!! More just waiting for the other shoe to drop. I prefer to think that it's a matter of working through stuff, time passing and H seeing that none of us is dying cuz of what happened, maybe seeing some glimmer of regular, "okay" stuff happening in our lives--and he could allow himself to feel a little better, bit by bit.

Am I a pollyanna or what?? Can't keep a glass-half-full gal down. Keeps me going though.


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So he just called and I asked him if he thought this was true. He was very quiet and then said "yes". He does believe that my love was seen as weak and needy. But also, because he knew I loved him, he knew he could take advantage of me.

HS - as awful as this answer was I think your H shows that he is very committed to giving you the truth. He had to know that you would get very upset. Also, I believe that this "was" how he felt then, not how he feels now. He has come a long way, don't you think??
He sounds like a man who is doing a great deal of soul searching and is facing some very ugly truths about himself. That takes guts, IMHO. Try not to be too angry and remember, this is not how he feels today. He knows he is damn lucky to have you and your girls.((HS))


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

25Wimsey - I'm with BT on this one. You are a very strong woman and it is to your credit that you are still able to see the glass as half-full. I have always seen things this way but after d-day, it's not so easy for me anymore. If you give lessons on this, count me in.
I also wanted to add that it is no wonder that your H is feeling depressed. I cannot imagine how frightening it must be to know that one day in the near future he will have to sit your children down and admit what he has done and its consequences. I can't imagine living with that and not knowing the outcome of that conversation.
Do you have a timeframe for this? How old are your children? Has your C given you and your H an idea of the best time to reveal this to them? It will feel like d-day all over for him and I'm sure it will be very difficult for you too and he has to be dreading this.
I do hope his therapist is able to resume treatment. Like you said, finding someone that they are compatible with and able to make progress with is a rare thing.
I also feel uncertain when my H seems distant and quiet, worrying and wondering what is in his head and trying not to get paranoid. After all, these guys have been caught having done so much damage to us and our M so is it any wonder they sometimes get down and discouraged. I'd be very concerned if they didn't. As a matter of fact, I get more upset when my H acts as if everything is back to normal. As long as I am suffering and trying to come to terms with his LTA, that's as long as he will be required to travel that road with me.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What I will give him credit for, is that he has been taking an active interest in family matters (helping with the kids, supporting with me with my job, trying to sort out our finances). But I cant help but think that he is doing this to punish himself, KWIM?

LH, I don't think I do know what you mean here? It sounds to me like your H has finally realized what it takes to make a marriage and a family work and if he is trying to punish himself by doing these things then I feel very sad for him.
I repeatedly tell my H that he is very lucky that I have allowed him to remain part of our family. I have seen many times where someone has been betrayed (for a lot less than I have) and kicked their S to the curb and then proceeded to turn the kids against them. Believe me, it was very tempting but I knew the damage that would be done to my kids so I worked very hard to keep my issues between my H and myself. Not always easy either.
I do think that these guys KNOW they are lucky to still be a part of our families. I think to some extent they are trying to catch up on all that they have missed from their years of abandonment. I watch my H with our kids and I listen and I know he is very grateful that they still love him. Initially, after he sat them down to tell them about his LTA, they wanted nothing to do with him. My son said to him, "You're going to be a very lonely man." He was so devastated and hurt by my H's actions and couldn't believe that this was the father he had loved and respected all of his life. A lot of healing has happened between them and I am glad for them and I know that my H KNOWS how very lucky he is. I'm betting yours does too.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyway, I just thought I would throw that tidbit out for all of you to chew on. Anybody feel that maybe their H felt the same way?


Hands up here too. But I might ask him if we ever get a quiet, intimate moment. I know he USED my love for him against me. I know that's how he was able to manipulate me all those years. Maybe that's why I won't give it to him at all now? I love him, but I'll be damned if I'll show it and get used again.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I cant help but think that he is doing this to punish himself, KWIM?

Lost Heart - can I try to put a positive spin on this? Perhaps he is doing this not because he wants to punish himself but because he now sees how much of the burden you carried for all those years and he is trying to make it up to *you*. If you think about it that way does it make you feel better?

FSA - congrats to you. It must make you so happy to watch your extended family grow.

Trouble is, the stuff that is so hopeless to him is not changeable--what happened happened, and the fallout is real and everlasting for all of us. Think I would be depressed too--thank god I'm not a WS.

25W - this is their cross to bear. A few weeks ago I was all in a snit as I wanted my H to be "punished". Then sometime in the last couple of weeks I realized that the remorseful spouse has the worst punishment of all - having to confront what they have done and live with the knowledge of who they were for the rest of their lives. I would rather be on this side of the fence.

FNF- I agree that 1) the WAS is important and I believe that in my heart and 2) yes, he is working very, very hard and it must hurt him to have to look inside himself - but it needs to be done. And, when I realize something like this and he answers it honestly, it actually doesn't hurt!! It feels right. What hurt was all those years of knowing something was off but not being able to figure it out. I remember so many times when I would ask him what was wrong and he would answer he was tired or something about work, etc. I just knew it was more but (for obvious reasons) he wouldn't open up. All that being said, I feel so far away from him right now. I don't know the person I am married to. I know it is not the person I thought I was married to. He has a lot more work to do before I can decide if he is worth it. 10 months and counting...

Weepy -

I know that's how he was able to manipulate me all those years.

Me too. The key is to not allow them to manipulate us now. Take care of yourself. Find the answers for yourself about yourself that you need. Do not let them control your actions. Finally, watch their actions not their words.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Fnf!

LH, I don't think I do know what you mean here? It sounds to me like your H has finally realized what it takes to make a marriage and a family work and if he is trying to punish himself by doing these things then I feel very sad for him

Its like this, Fnf:
For e.g. Prior to dday, in fact all of our M'd life, he did what he want when he wanted. I really had no say even though he often said I was a manipulative controlling game playing selfish...blah blah. There were often times when I thought money was tight, and he would go out and buy himself PC games, software, etc and I would be . He didnt think twice about anything re himself.

Now he seems to have gone totally on the opposite side. He refuses to buy himself anything even when its necessary, he is constantly teling me to buy myself things ( I am still working on this). He denies himself pleasures. He says he is unhappy but doesnt know if he can be happy, nor what will make him happy.
It sounds like he is punishing himself.
Am I being too hard?
This is just so unlike him, I cant imagine it coming truly out of the goodness of his heart.
I hate that I have become such a cynic.

***
Another thought:
We all more or less agree that our WSs used the OWs to escape from the real world, to try to fill the hole.
My H also used work (he was a workaholic extreme) and pc games to escape.

Now, he cant be assed about work, and rarely plays games. There are no OWs. So I am wondering what he uses instead?
As bad as he thought his life was before, its way worse now, right?
Is this why he is depressed?

***

Can't keep a glass-half-full gal down. Keeps me going though

Hey Whimsey, sign me up too?

***
Tribe, a small dilemma please?

What do i do if H promised to do something, and then didnt, cos he forgot?

He knew it was impt to me, knew I would be anxious, even reminded me an hour before, and still forgot.

Of course I am angry, but if I dig deeper, I am sad because he forgot me.

His response to my, "You promised! And you just forgot??!! Not acceptable!"
was, "Yeah yeah.Whatever. I forgot. So skip the drama, and what are you going to do now? What does this "mean" (snarky tone) for me?"

I am not talking to him, becasue I know I will let a whole lot of other hurts cloud any response.

So what do I do?

And you know its not just the not doing it. Its the forgetting. I cant help but wonder who/what made him forget?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost Heart -

And you know its not just the not doing it. Its the forgetting. I cant help but wonder who/what made him forget?

Okay, this is what I would do. Post-dday H and I have done a surprising amount of corresponding either via email or text. It seems to help on a couple of fronts. First, it takes the raw emotion out of the dialogue and second, you can take your time to compose, review, edit, etc. No heat of the moment barbs, can't use a snarky tone etc. Could you take the quote above and email it to him. That you were hurt because he forgot and it makes you feel forgotten by him. Could you text this to him? Is there a way to communicate your hurt to him that won't becoming a shouting match especially if there are coffee cups laying around?

Just a thought...


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

especially if there are coffee cups laying around?

Darn!

I know thats the sensible thing to do, Shirley.
I dunno whats up with me, but lately, I have been avoiding all conflict (and me being Missy Confrontational too!). I am just too tired to engage. I am trying to swallow and just let it go.
Just too tired and sad, I guess.

Speaking of which...the sleeping pill is kicking in.
Before I sign off, I was reading this Meet and Greet session in F&G, and thought wouldnt it be cool to do that here in our new home.
I have my suspicions that there are some oldies and newbies who lurk (who for their own reasons dont post), and thought we could introduce ourselves, with a house warming party?

What does the Tribe think?

See you all tomorrow night.

Goodnight Ma.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hate it that so few of you are on the West Coast--you all go to bed just when I'm getting my after-work/dinner wind!

Sleep well all you Easterners and beyond!


Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now he seems to have gone totally on the opposite side. He refuses to buy himself anything even when its necessary, he is constantly teling me to buy myself things ( I am still working on this). He denies himself pleasures. He says he is unhappy but doesnt know if he can be happy, nor what will make him happy.

Honestly, LH, it sounds like guilt to me. He is finally realizing all that he did to you during those years and how unfair it was to you and your children and now is trying to reverse the wrong he has done. But his guilt keeps him from finding the happiness he seeks. That's just MHO for what it's worth.
This whole issue of happiness is something we, as BS's have to deal with every day. How can we be truly happy knowing now what we know and how can the WS be happy knowing now the damage they have done and the pain they have caused. Each of us, the BS's and the WS's, look at each other with caution and with doubt. We doubt their love for us, their commitment to R, their reasons for staying. They look at us wondering if we can really stay with them, if we can ever love them again. We wonder that too. They have caused such tremendous damage, is it any wonder that happiness is elusive at this point in all of our attempts at R. I am happy on a day to day basis. Today, things were good. My H was attentive, affectionate and loving. Yesterday, he was an assphat. KWIM???? We are going through the motions of married life without the absolute security that comes with knowing that our S's love, care and are faithful to us.
I wouldn't worry so much about your H's happiness. Worry about finding yours.
That's just my 2 cents. That's what I'm trying to do anyway.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 4:55 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I remember so many times when I would ask him what was wrong and he would answer he was tired or something about work, etc. I just knew it was more but (for obvious reasons) he wouldn't open up.

That is what really gets to me at times. That I was so oblivious to the obvious. I NEVER, not once, thought that he was having an A. It literally NEVER crossed my mind. I feel like such a fool. How could I have missed the signs? It's just incredulous to me now. He would even tell me to have an A, he would never divorce me. Even then, I just blew it off and never made that connection. I can get so damn frustrated when I think about this.
All that being said, I feel so far away from him right now. I don't know the person I am married to. I know it is not the person I thought I was married to.

Amen to that HS! I often feel like I need my H to make me fall in love all over again because the person I fell in love with doesn't exist. So, if that is true, let me see who that person is and if I can love this new person that has now decided to expose his true nature. I sometimes think about renewing our vows but I want to be sure that I am in love with this man that I now know my H to be. I will not even think about renewing my vows until I am sure that he is the man I want to spend the rest of my life with, KWIM???


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF -

This whole issue of happiness is something we, as BS's have to deal with every day. How can we be truly happy knowing now what we know and how can the WS be happy knowing now the damage they have done and the pain they have caused.

Each of us, the BS's and the WS's, look at each other with caution and with doubt. We doubt their love for us, their commitment to R, their reasons for staying. They look at us wondering if we can really stay with them, if we can ever love them again. We wonder that too.

This needs to go into some kind of LTA quote library. Do we have one of those? It is so spot on.

And 25W - I am still awake but am opening the wine so don't look for much wisdom from me!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

am opening the wine so don't look for much wisdom from me!


Already beat you to it, HS. Had 2 nice glasses of red and feeling the buzz.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shirley,

My husband never admitted that he felt that way about me, per se. But he did admit he felt that way about himself. That loving someone made him feel vulnerable and he equated that with being weak.

If you think about it, it is a damn sad attitude.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay - here comes the post wine typing..not even going to try to edit!

That loving someone made him feel vulnerable and he equated that with being weak.

BT - I actually think it is the same in a weird way. My H was essentially raised by his sister whom he loved dearly (and had sexual thoughts about
as they bathed together waaaaay tooo long). When she was 18 and he was 13, she eloped to escape abuse by the older brother and yucky old men friends of the parents. He was crushed, devastated. It was as if he mother had left him but she was his sexual fantasy as well and she left for another man. Okay, now that all of his FOO issues are out there, I think either loving or being loved is a threat to the WS. If they are loved, they feel needed and feel threatened by that need (too much responsibility, too much attachment/commitment, fear of intimacy, etc). If they love, they fear abandonment, loss of self esteem, fear of intimacy again, etc. Either way, love is not a healthy emotion for them.

I know in my case my H had a strike first mentality. When we first met and for a few years he was very much in love. I think he was so afraid of being hurt that he had to hurt first to 1) distance himself and 2) to make sure he wasn't the one to be abandoned.

Okay, need more wine just thinking about all of this.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 8:31 PM, June 24th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In case any of you missed this tonight in General:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=241326

I am up later than usual. Actually, having fun posting in *other* forums. Hope that doesn't mean I am cheating!!!!


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
25wimsey
♀ Member
Member # 7816
Default  Posted: 12:26 AM, June 25th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fnf, about happiness, you are so very wise. Thanks for a thoughtful post.

Posts: 695 | Registered: Aug 2005
acreswild
♂ Member
Member # 19371
Default  Posted: 6:37 AM, June 25th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

also posted this in reconciliation forum...

had an epiphany on sunday... 4 months out of discovery..clearly saw that I was dealing with a 28 yr affair.. not just a heavy affair a long time ago followed by some sporadic crap..and that WS was the one that was actively keeping it alive..

while she has been open and honest with some aspects of this, she continues to shade, dodge, claim she doesnt remember(she has an incredible memory for all kinds of other things) and I caught her in several outright lies in a series of questions that it took her 3 weeks to answer...

even our therapist ripped her a new one yesterday and said "you are not grappling with this on your own, you are not searching, if you want to save your marriage, you have to get to work on this"... tough stuff from a therapist..

given the enormity of her affair, her inability to really look inside herself to answer the big WHY question, her continued "lying", I am finding it more and more difficult to carry R forward..

she is certainly remorseful, at least for the damage to us and me, and I do believe that she still loves me and wants to save this marriage ( at least for her selfish sake)... but I find that I am starting to dislike her as a person,I still love her.. but ...

I asked her what our friends would recommend to me if they knew the whole story, and she said they would tell me to "dump her sorry ass"...

I can still see staying married for all kinds of reasons.. but I fear what that life would really be like...

I think I was far too optimisitc about R... believed that she could really come to grips with this... but I think I was very very wrong about that..

any response or reaction would be dearly appreciated...

thanks


BS-Me-59
WW- Her-59
Married 36 years
PA/EA/?A...depends on definition....
She finally admitted an old 3-4 year affair ( over 25 years ago) followed by a very sporadic on-again off-again 8 year PA followed by lengthy EA that would likely still be

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