And then the next month, he did exactly the same thing, minus the puking after, etc. He said that the build-up was intense every time--lots of promises of mind-blowing sex, talk about taking him to an orgy when she thought he was "ready", hints of kinky sex ("maybe I'll bring my bag of tricks and a friend this time"). And the sex varied from awful to fine. He told himself every time that he had just done it for the last time.
They played each other. She started to say she loved him. He told her he loved her because he realized that a true affair was what she wanted and he was willing to manipulate her in any way necessary to get to his goal.
He says it became an obsession very quickly. She never delivered on the promises, although once she invited him to a "party" over a weekend in another city and he said no, that it would be too hard for him to get away for a weekend, which, of course speaks volumes-that he'd spent ages trying to get there and then couldn't quite get himself to go through with it. I'm guessing she had that figured and that there was no "party."
The A went on like this, build-up, once a month or so rendezvous, promises to himself that it was over. He says he pushed her more forcefully to bring him to something but other than that one offer she kept saying he wasn't ready. He started to think more seriously about ending. There was one time he says he remembers leaving on a trip back to the old city, knowing he would see her (she was still working for him) and he thought, "why do this? it's not getting me what I want." and then, "why not?"
So he was now pretty much inured to the awfulness of it and was becoming an entitled jerk. He had his life nicely separated with a monthly fuck in another city, always scheduled so he wouldn't have to spend any time with her afterwards, and a nice wife and family and a good sex life in another place. The only real drawback was that he couldn't seem to get to that orgy.
I was never able to understand why he made her this sort of mysterious gatekeeper to this world. It doesn't take much common sense to figure out that you can go on the computer any day of the week and find overweight middle-aged couples swinging in some suburban club somewhere and get yourself invited along, but that never occurred to him. His orgy was some magical, fantasy Eyes Wide Shut world and I don't think he really wanted to sully it with the reality. Needless to say, his IC has had a field day with this.
I called my old IC and started doing phone sessions with her. I was ready to kick him out the door. I felt like I'd gone from a nice, safe, normal life to a Lifetime movie of the week. I simply could not believe that my H had essentially had a secret life. It didn't fit anything I knew or understood about either of us or our life together. It was so bizarre I couldn't even begin to think about telling anyone IRL. She actually gave me real, hard advice for the first time and it helped so immeasurably I can't even say.
She said that unless there's abuse, she doesn't think people should ever make quick decisions in affair situations. She counseled patience and IC for him. I still remember her saying, "don't just tell yourselves it's an anomaly and will never happen again. He has *got* to figure out why it happened." And she was obviously concerned by the addictive-sounding qualities of the A, as was I. She said it sounded more like prostitution with no money exchange or a series of ONS with the same person more than a real A.
We found another MC and she was all right. Making him tell the details seemed to advance things a bit. I got tired of her "this is a no blame zone" stuff. I was ready to apportion some serious blame, but really worked at staying reasonable and supportive and encouraging. My IC kept telling me that part of my H's job was "to take my anger." But the MC wasn't into that. I will say that we didn't make too much progress in MC, but did have some of our better discussions after our sessions.
We talked and talked and talked. The farther away from the A he got, the more he seemed to start to see it in clear focus. He was completely focused on keeping the marriage. He was transparent, doing everything he could to help me, in NC, taking responsibility, but I was just unable to find my balance. He went through 3 ICs but couldn't seem to click with any. They were all very gentle and sort of silly (one I remember in particular spent an entire session telling my H that he was too repressed, that he needed to "let his anger fill the room.")
I was terrified that it was still going on, that he was a sex addict, that a normal sex life could never satisfy him, that he'd figure out in IC that he didn't love me, didn't want to be married, we'd married too young, etc. He was as reassuring as he could be, but since he didn't really know what had driven the whole thing, it wasn't much comfort.
I came from the other side of that equation . . . he had risked everything for someone he barely even liked. My children and I had been gambled with for someone with essentially no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's taken me all these years to even begin to come to grips with that part.
He had told me there was none of that. It was essentially a sexual transaction, nothing more. I called him. After a lot of discussion he admitted that as the A went on, it started to take on the trappings of a real A, dinners before the hotel where they played footsie and she took off her underwear and gave it to him under the table etc. That while it wasn't loving and romantic, it was a "real" A.
I went pretty nuts. Now I was angry. I felt like everything we'd done for the past 6 months, all the agony and work and anguish (and HB) had been under false pretenses. The move, everything I had put in to the marriage, it had all been under false pretenses.
I asked him if there was anything else he wanted to tell me and he assured me there wasn't. The night before he came home from the trip he called me and said that about 2 years before the A, he had been on a trip to Thailand. The client had essentially bought the team stripper/prostitutes (yes, this still happens ). He had gone with her and then freaked out and left in the middle. The fact that he had left in the middle did not make me take it in a more kindly way.
I'd finished being the nice wife at that point. I told him to get serious or get out (I sucker punched him in the face one night, which was my lowest depth, but if I'm being totally honest, I don't regret it all that much). It took a long time for things to begin to get better again, but, strangely it was also when the real healing began.
It was when he started to see that the continued lying hadn't been to spare me but to spare him. That while it hadn't been a great love affair and he would most likely have ended it on his own, he probably would have gone on to be a serial adulterer if he hadn't been caught. He found a serious, tough, IC and started sessions twice a week and started getting to the real, deep stuff.
Forgot to insert quote:
I came from the other side of that equation . . . he had risked everything for someone he barely even liked. My children and I had been gambled with for someone with essentially no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's taken me all these years to even begin to come to grips with that part
This kills me too. While the A was going on with OW#1 we would talk about her negatively all the time- We couldn't stand her and never wanted her around. WH says now that he didn't like her personality...he wasn't lying when having those conversations but that didn't stop him from having his A, enjoying sex on a weekly basis, and doing "fun" activities with her while working.
Ow#2 presented as trashy- tatoos, piercings everywhere, bright bright red hair, smokes, thongs hanging out, boobs drastically hanging out.....Yet, WH and time convinced me that she was an okay person who was looking out for our family. She started babysitting, spending more & more time together with all of us, and then eventually moved in. THIS ^^ has totally killed my instincts. I allowed myself to look past "stereotypes" and look where I ended up.!! I actually asked WH really early in their working/friendship if they were having an A (it was more of a joking question)....but based on their interactions together which were never flirty, she was just as interested in me or the kids (I thought)....I never saw anything to question it so let all suspicions go SO early on. Looking back- there was 2 or 3 instances where something felt off but I always attributed it to the fact that they had worked together in a group home so some boundaries were already crossed that I wouldn't be aware of.
I haven't heard the "cheat down" phrase before but WH certainly did. Just the other day I found a partial picture of her w/the boobs hanging out and I was in a shitty place so sent it to him and said, "Seriously??, you are attracted to THAT?" AGH, the hurt & pain is nonstop.
[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 11:48 AM, August 21st (Thursday)]
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
I don't know tat H cheated down. I finally saw her picture on facebook and while not beautiful, she's okay. She has a okay job and I know some of her friends who are pretty nice. She is probably what most people would call pretty normal.
So when he says she was easy to talk to and he was attracted to her and that's how the affair started, it is sooo hurtful. I know he could have been in a relationship with her that was not an affair given the right circumstances for it. She wasn't someone you had to hide in the closet (if you weren't married that is). Although, just the fact that she started an affair with a married man with small children just months after her husband left her for another woman speaks volumes of her poor character.
But do you make stupid mistakes like that when you are hurt and alone? Not excusing her, just trying to figure it out. The thought that it was so real just kills me to the core. That it wasn't just sex. That he wasn't in love with her but says he must have felt some love for her to spend so much time with her. That he bought her presents in Disney and had me and my family help chose them. The fact that he could have left me for her and my kids could have that as a stepmother. It is all just too much to handle.
H is at IC today. I was very grumpy this morning. lack of sex, lack of oust plain interst from him leaes me this way after a few weeks. He doesn't seem to pick up on that and to be honest, I am tiured of complaining about the sex. He can lok at porn 3 times a week but sex, not so much. I can' ask for it anymore, it's too humiliating to know your H has no interest in sex with you, in making love with me.
I honestly don't know if I can or want to do this anymore.
H is at IC today. I was very grumpy this morning. lack of sex, lack of oust plain interest from him leave me this way after a few weeks. He doesn't seem to pick up on that and to be honest, I am tired of complaining about the sex. He can look at porn 3 times a week but sex, not so much. I can' ask for it anymore, it's too humiliating to know your H has no interest in sex with you, in making love with me.
You are doing really well.
I don't want to D at all....and I think WH has potential to become "better" but what about me?? Where will I be left in 5 years? Do I want to doubt everything forever?
Seeing as your dday was quite recent(??), it is generally advised to wait at elast a year before making serious decisions.
You are perfectly in your right to end the M now. Remember, its always your choice. The doubts you mentioned...all of us i am sure have had them.
For now, just take care of you.
honestly don't know if I can or want to do this anymore.
All I have are understanding and hugs, Kat.
He watches porno..alone?
Have you both brought up the sex issue in MC yet?
I had tremendous financial, personal and social freedom when my H was involved in his A. ............ and spent whatever I thought was necessary and reasonable to get the job done right.
He couldn't even be man enough to do it himself.
Except that he never mentioned it to me
Spent the night lying awake, thinking about confessing, but decided it was over and to put it behind him.
the continued lying hadn't been to spare me but to spare him.
WH always nicely reminds me that he did not "risk" everything for HER, it was selfish and for himself.
I now have friend with same name as me (LostH called her UKg2) with now serious marital problems. And her H is my Hís BF. Why do some people live their lives in such turmoil when things donít have to be, this business of self harm that just hurts so many others around them? And when did they get to be so selfish about their needs?
And MC has brought me right down. I know I will not ever rely or trust my H again. I ended up having to do everything on the home front because he was elsewhere. So, I donít need him, but I am choosing to stay right now for probably the wrong reasons. A bit where you are FNF. And Shirley. Et al. And thatís very sad.
A few of us seem to be really struggling recently.
I know why I am. HOWEVER, I do find it very telling that every time he leaves the room I mumble "asshole" under my breath. He is, what can I say?
I just ordered two books "Too good to leave, too bad to stay" and "can this relationship be saved?" A completely different direction than the "I need to understand him" books I've been reading. RIght now I'm in teh middle of "Why does he do that?" It's about angry, controlling me. I sure have one of those. Anyway the author just labels it as abuse. On like page 5 he says "trying to understand, trying to change the way you react to him, learning new communication methods WILL NOT WORK. All that will work is for them to enter abuse counseling. And he goes on to say that they won't do that because they don't see themselves as abusers.
H called his sister to see if her shore place was available for Labor Day weekend. She got back to us today and said it was. So he says to me "are we still interested?" I say "I am". Then he starts to TELL me what I think. That I think it's too small, it's not on the beach" and starts quoting things I said when he was talking about all 4 adults going down at the same time. No. A 1-bedroom tiny suite is not big enough for us and our adult children. They can't sleep together on the pull out sofa! So I say to him "I want to go. Now it's up to you." "Well, I don't want to go with you being miserable the whole time, so forget it."
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
My DIL is in the hospital, 28 wks preg and having high blood pressure, could turn into preclampasia. I have my 3 year old grandson with me. Along with my 7 year old son. Getting my 16 DD and my 7 year old ready for school next Monday, so I'm a little snowed under. My DS and grandson have to compete for my attention. Just one of the draw backs about having kids and grandkids close to the same age. DIL is preg with a girl this time. This will make 6 grands. We're praying that she can hang onto baby long enough to give her a good chance. Dr says we'll be doing great if she can make it to 36 wks. When she gets out of hospital she will be on total bed rest. They live about an hour away from me, so with my kids in school I will not be able to go to their home on a daily basis to take care of them. I imagine my grandson will be with me most of the time until the baby gets here.
Everybody take care. Later.
If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 6:18 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]
Prayers are with you.
FnF: I'd probably have a GREAT time without him there. He wants to go to Wildwood, me, Ocean City. There's the problem. But hey, I'm researching Wildwood places right now.
They all look like trashy motels to me, that's why I don't like Wildwood. Anyone have recommendations?
(sorry for typos but bottle of wine 1 just finished).
I am realizing why I am struggling and it is what everybody has always said but I misinterpreted it. Take care of yourself and do something for yourself is not about material things, it is about my soul. I have had to admit to myself over the last few days that I took a bigger part in the destruction - nope correction - the lack of construction in our marriage. This revelation starting around HTs post in general with speaking your own truth and was continued tonight with truthsetmefrees post in general about BS owning their part.
I have to stand up and say I should have shut this marriage down in year one. I should have shut it down during the engagement. But we had a large wedding planned and I couldn't embarress myself or my parents that way (especially since they were anti his family anyway). I tried for years to ignore the obvious which is that he didn't love or respect me. He was gorgeous, he was smart, he was funny, he made a great "mate" but he wasn't my husband.
The few times that I was so pissed (mad) that I packed a bag and put it out, I always took him back in. Why? I don't know for sure yet but I know that I will start exploring this even deeper. I think I knew he could give me at least the charade of what I wanted. I never understood the cost. We had a long talk about this and I think he was shocked to learn this.
I am going back to the 'truth serum' - wine to find more truth. Again, sorry I haven't been here but the posts in general are dragging me, pushing me, to a place I needed to find. I don't want to allow myself to do this to me again.
ETA: Shit, FSA I just read your post ....((((FSA)))) I can't imagine trying to handle all of that. I am wishing the best for your DIL and her unborn baby girl. I am thinking of your family.
[This message edited by hurtshirley at 9:03 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]
You certainly have your hands full. Can you get your 16 year old to help out with the younger ones?
I am with FSA on this.
Forget Wildwood. Go to the beach. Do whats good for you.
My DD (8) wrote to my sister asking for help; that mummy and daddy are fighting all the time and are getting a D and she is sad. My sister sent us both a mail blasting us to get our stuff to together or split up.
She also chatted to me later on saying that we were being selfish and not a good parents by exposing the kids to all this, and basicaly if we are still like this after 2 years, what is the point of staying? That she cant understand why I am so desp to hang onto him after he has treated and continues to treat me so badly. Why indeed.
I had earlier on spoken to an elder in our community about D. I am starting to think that there is no other option; that I am clutching at straws, that I seem to find myself in this position after every few months, and that this is detrimental to me and most of all to my kids.#
I am going to follow this up further this weekend.There are so many other implications that whilst not life threatening, will affect me badly, and I feel abit foolish even thinking of it, I wish I had a stronger spine, but this is where I am. If anyone had any kind of advice, pls help. PM or post.
1. I am reliant on him to live here as we are on his work permit. If we D, kids and I have to go back to South Africa. I dont want that. I could apply for my own permit but the govt has limited this and this will be a lengthy expensive process
2. As we have a SA M,not sure whether local laws apply re maintenance. Hav to check
3, THe new house.We can only afford this with our joint salary. We were in the last batch to be given a loan (in fact we received a refusal letter by mistake 2 days ago..thats how close it was).I will not be able to afford rent on my salary, let alone buying something. The housing market in London at the moment is in crisis. We would have to move, meaning new job, uprooting the kids schools, friends etc.
4. I dont know if we can coexist in the same house without either winding each other up or falling into bed. I dont know how to keep my boundaries. You would think after that practice before dday, I would be an expert. But he has grown in my heart. I dont know how to turn him out of there.
Can you imagine..I am feeling sorry for him.Bet he is too.
I dont know whether he still reads here. HE told me he stopped a long time ago. Maybe I should play my cards closer to my chest, but I have never been a sneaky girl. I want to do this openly and honestly and with a clear conscience.Prob not v smart, but I am not going to change who I am now.
Our D religiously is a process that spans a length of time.But can be over in 4-5 months if we are dead certain. After that, we will be forbidden to remarry each other. Thats how seriously D is taken. It is said that the heavens shake and the angels weep, whenever a family is broken up.
I have tried my best. I know I have at the time. I could have said and did many things differently. Maybe that would have altered where we are now. Maybe not. H has made many changes that I think even he didnt know he was capable of. He comes out of this a Father, not as an empty noun, but as an active verb. By agreeing to R after dday, I have given the kids their father.
I want to thank all of you so very very much. For everything. I am tearing as I write this. You lot have been my family when I was all alone.
I feel like I have let down so many people, most of all my kids and msyelf.But I know if I carry on like this, it would be worse. The fact that I was contemplating S again last week should be a slap in teh face for me.