Cheating Hurt by Infidelity
Betrayal Wayward Donations lying
Welcome

Forums

Guidelines

Find a Local Counselor

The Healing Library

Media

Contact Us
lies
cover
In Association with Amazon.com
Support
Infidelity -
-
Find a Local Couselor
You are not logged in. Login here or register.
[Register]
Newest Member: northeasternarea (43214)

I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HappyMaskOn -


Was there anything that just jolted you out of the fog?

Lots of little things happened during my fog, but there were two major jolts. The first was, clearly, D-Day. Knowing the pain my BW felt was a pretty big shock to my system.

The other was about five months later. My BW was scanning a cell bill and found multiple calls during non-work hours to a number in the same city as xMOW. She challenged me on them, and to prove that the number belonged to the coworker I was helping through a rough time (part of a KISA issue I had not yet focused on). Having to scramble to find a company directory with the coworkers name and number was enough to make me see how my foggy behavior was continuing to hurt my BW.

Being challenged to prove there was nothing more going on was what shook me out of the fog.

What kept it away was giving more selflessly, and experiencing the extreme positive feelings that come with giving to my BW and our kids in that manner.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokendreamz -

How do WS justify that behavior?

While my online activity wasn't originally based on an "active search" for an A, I can see how it can happen. It's all about not seeing the slippery slope, because our boundaries are too weak.

It starts with curiosity. Finding a site and poking around. Wondering what kind of people are there and what they are like. Of course, to look into the site you have to register. Hey, it's free and I'm "just looking around" right? So you convince yourself that you aren't looking for an A, just looking to see what kind of people are out there.

So you register. For many like myself, we have a low opinion of ourselves at that time. That no one really would be interested in us, and even our spouse is only with us out of "obligation to the M". Then wham, someone responds to your ID, acting interested in you. And the ugly slippery slope begins. First you convince yourself you are just "chatting with a friend". Then you convince yourself that cyber or phone sex isn't "real sex" because there was no contact. Then...well...it pulls you into a very dark place very rapidly.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:48 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TO -

Sometime after I caught my h I told him he was a very bad person and he answered very sadly, "I am not a very bad person, I am just a person who did something very bad." I actually felt sorry for him when he said that.

The most difficult part of recovery for a WS is reconciling that we could do what we did, and not fall into an abyss that we are evil people who will never be worthwhile. Self esteem is already at an all time low, and having an A just drags it down even more.

I have had to, over time, figure out a way to define myself in terms of "seasons of life". During my "A season", I was horrible. I lied, I withdrew from my family, I obsessed over another woman - I was a pretty bad person. But that season does not define all of me as a total person. Since emerging from my fog, I'd like to believe I have returned to the good person I should have been all along.

To believe anything less subjects me to reverting to another A, believing I don't deserve anything better.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
hereigoagain
♀ New Member
Member # 19480
Default  Posted: 8:12 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH and I are trying to R. He is having a very difficult time even looking at my face because he sees the pain he caused there. When I trigger it also causes him such pain that he thinks that he can't go through the R process anymore. That it would be easier on the two of us to just D and get on with our lives. I have tried to tell him that everything we are going through is normal and that we both have to work through our pain to get to the other side and that it is just going to take time.

Is there anything else that I can do to help him. He isn't a reader (although I have been reading Not just friends to him) and doesn't feel comfortable in a forum such as this so he doesn't really have anyone to talk to. He is in IC but that is once a week at best. He is so down on himself and thinks that the A defines who he is and I just can't convince him otherwise. I tell him that he just has to choose R day by day, hour by hour, or minute by minute just like I do. Is there anything that I can do as a BS to help him get through this stage. I told him that if he has a hard time now, just wait until I hit the angry stage, the thought scares me.


Me BS-43
Him WH-43
Married 2 yrs together 7
D day 1 Sept. 21 EA or so I thought
D days throughout final confirm of PA 6-22
Yet another D day in Aug. 08 (she tried to kill herself, yea right)
Final straw--broke NC again 3-09 heading for D

Kno


Posts: 26 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Ohio
brokendreamz
♀ Member
Member # 18436
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Listeningclosely

Okay so he ends up in a very dark place, goes and meets AP - How can he justify continuing. Where is the initial "OH MY GOD I SHOULDN'T be doing this"?????IT was a concious choice to continue - that is not an accident or mistake - it is a choice.

He gets caught & is given every opportunity to reconcile.

Where is the urgency to do whatever it takes to keep his wife & sons???

He claims he wants to stay married - I say prove it.

Does he really believe that I'm just supposed to stuff it and pretend the affair didn't happen. I really don't care what anybody calls it (fog, arrogance etc) the bottom line to me is if he wants to stay married he needs to do "whatever" it takes to humor me.



Posts: 1077 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: SouthEast
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hereigoagain -

Is there anything that I can do as a BS to help him get through this stage.

If your WH is self limiting the places to turn for support, it can be tough. If he's not a big reader, you may want to get audio book versions of Not Just Friends, After the Affair, The Five Love Languages, etc. Things he can listen to, and then go back and review at his own pace. Makes the work commute go by quicker.

While he may not be comfortable posting on SI, maybe you can edge him into just lurking in the Wayward forum. He can take some time getting to know who we are, and to see we are dealing with many of the same issues he is.

And he has an open invite to PM me in private. I'll be happy to share my story and help him in his journey.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokendreamz -

Okay so he ends up in a very dark place, goes and meets AP - How can he justify continuing. Where is the initial "OH MY GOD I SHOULDN'T be doing this"?????IT was a conscious choice to continue - that is not an accident or mistake - it is a choice.

I agree totally with you. I made a series of choices that were completely wrong. What happened with me was as I made each choice, I found myself clinging more and more to the "wrong side of the fence". Decisions weren't made because I consciously wanted to hurt my BW. They were made because more and more I was addicted to the positive feedback and ego stroking I was getting from xMOW. It becomes a rapid downward spiral.

He gets caught & is given every opportunity to reconcile.

Where is the urgency to do whatever it takes to keep his wife & sons???

This is the heart of the matter for both sides. IMHO, a WS becomes a FWS when the impact shifts from what they lost when they gave up their OP to what they almost or did lose in their BS and family. The amount of time this takes for each WS is different. I didn't experience full on impact for five months after D-Day. I wish I could give you a definitive answer on what would shake up your WS in this area, but it's different for each of us.

He claims he wants to stay married - I say prove it.

This is going to sound a bit weird, but sometimes you have to "retrain" your WS. Remember, for many of us we have withdrawn from our families for some time. We've lost perspective on household routines, that DD's favorite band is different or that DS is now eating veggies. We also have not clearly understood the language of love that resonates most with our BS. So early on, you may have to tell him exactly what "prove it" means. I know it sucks having to say it specifically, but our perspective is so screwed up we need that kind of feedback.

Does he really believe that I'm just supposed to stuff it and pretend the affair didn't happen. I really don't care what anybody calls it (fog, arrogance etc) the bottom line to me is if he wants to stay married he needs to do "whatever" it takes to humor me.

No, he doesn't in all likelihood. First, we know we can't go back and erase the past. So while going over the details with a BS is critical for their healing, it's agony for a WS because it keeps us rooted in our asshat selves and doesn't allow us to focus on the part we can change - how we act from this day forward.

Second, as stated before you need to be very specific about what "whatever it takes" means. And yes, I mean ultimatums and lists. Otherwise, we try stuff and it misses the mark badly. If you appreciate contact (touches and hugs) and your WS tries doing more errands to take them off your back, you see no effort while they are busting their hump. If you appreciate apologies over and over and they buy you flowers, again there is a major gap.

It's perfectly fine to list what you need and to expect it. But if you are hoping your WS will just "get it" and suddenly show you remorse and love in a way you will appreciate, you may find yourself disappointed.

[This message edited by Listeningclosely at 12:44 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday)]


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
hereigoagain
♀ New Member
Member # 19480
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC

Thank you. I have relayed several of your posts because I think that they could help him. Hopefully he will be willing to go the PM route. I appreciate your openess and willingness to help both other WS's and BS's.


Me BS-43
Him WH-43
Married 2 yrs together 7
D day 1 Sept. 21 EA or so I thought
D days throughout final confirm of PA 6-22
Yet another D day in Aug. 08 (she tried to kill herself, yea right)
Final straw--broke NC again 3-09 heading for D

Kno


Posts: 26 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Ohio
tryingtwo
♀ Member
Member # 19717
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I posted a letter to my WH in Reconsiliation asking for SI opionions. I have now received some opinions from BS which helped me.

I am very nervious and shakey about this letter and would appreciate a WS opinion on it. I don't want to bump the other post. So maybe a WS can take a look at it and post a reply for me here. Thank you


Innocent people generally want to get to the bottom of things. Guilty people usually want the discussion to be over as soon as possible.

Posts: 10311 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Oregon
bear
♂ Member
Member # 19859
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hereigoagain, I can second LC's suggestion to have your WH 'lurk' on this site. He doesn't have to sign-on to get some very valuable insight into this entire process. It opened my eyes, and got me headed in a direction. Being stuck is terrible for you both.


WH (me): 59
BW: 56
M: 34 years
Together: 38 years
2 DDs: 21 & 25
d'day: 2-11-2008
A: EA & PA 6 months


Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: South
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryingtwo - I read your letter, and it is indeed heartfelt. It raises a few questions for me:

Are you in MC? It seems like this would be a good launching point for work with an MC to get through the conflict between your need to know the past and your WS's need to move away from the "bad person" they were before. Both are needs and both need to be considered in the process.

If he tells you details, will you believe him? This is one of the great challenges. To sit and go over questions with the thought that your BS won't believe you because you have lied so much in the past anyway. If you won't believe him, then is the conversation going to produce any benefit for either of you?

What do you want the outcome of this to be? What do you want your WS to do after reading the letter?

These questions have an impact on whether or not it can do what you want it to do.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
SickInMySoul
♀ Member
Member # 19945
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[This message edited by SickInMySoul at 4:29 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday)]


BS (me) 44
WS 51
two amazing girls 22 & 23
one year PA with a 22 yr old "friend" of ours.
Dday 4-7-08
Looking forward to being one of the R success stories!

5-09**seriously wondering if I can get past this...
9-10**still struggling..


Posts: 216 | Registered: Jun 2008
tryingtwo
♀ Member
Member # 19717
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Listeningclosely,

1-we are not in MC. We have went to two different ones. The last one my husband refused to go back. WH canceled the appt. on the day I was to bring in my list of questions and refused to go back. I have went to 2 differet IC and he has went to 1 IC. We just cannot afford to keep going, going through the preliminaries, pay out the nose and get nothing helpful out of it because my husband will not be open and honest, if it gets too close to the truth he gets angry to shut me down. Or calls them all idiots.
2-My WH is very close to a pathological liar. Something he admits and yet he cannot seem to stop the lies/small or large. Recently there has been another incident with lies. Not earth shattering, but a lie to protect something he did that he knew would anger me. It put me through hell again dragging out the truth. It let me know that I can no longer live without honesty in my life from my husband.
3-I know much more than he thinks I do. I have kept a few pieces of info in my back pocket to be able to measure his truthfulness with. I have told him this. I did so because even though he is now sober, the dry drunk has some issues and I was not going to risk my life/health/mental health to him unless I can varify he will tell the truth. So far, he has failed in this.
4-The outcome? It would be for him to drop the tactics of conversation he has used thus far to avoid any hard questions or answers.(included in my post). That I could trust him again. I do not ask complicated questions and haven't asked any for a long time. I don't need to know details of the A. I am talking about giving me the number of women in total. I am talking about answer to the question-When I was in the hospital recovering from the car accident did you have sex with other women? Did you ever bring any women to this house we are living in now? We have been in limbo. I have no answers and am suffering the questions in silence.
5. If he is going to continue to lie to me if he does something that he knows is a breach of trying to R or to our marriage, then I cannot be married to him. No matter how much I love him.
6. What do I want him to do after reading the letter? To decide. He can have me, or he can have his secrets and his private life he protects with lies. He must choose. I am not waiting any longer.

You have probably not read my profile, but our marriage has been full of crap, not just this A. He is a better person now. If what you are saying is that I should just forget and forgive all those years of pain blindly just because he has made some changes now, I cannot do it. He has not changed the lying pattern. I have done that thorughout our marriage and I cannot survive anymore. I know that sounds dramatic. It is the truth. It is time for the rest of the story. You have no idea how hard it will be for me to hear it outloud. I am offering to be strong enough to hear it from him. I am asking that he be strong enough to say it.
The final thing you ask. What do I want it to do? To end this once and for all one way or the other. In my father's words, it is time to shit or get off of the pot.


Innocent people generally want to get to the bottom of things. Guilty people usually want the discussion to be over as soon as possible.

Posts: 10311 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Oregon
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tryingtwo -

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not suggesting you forgive and forget. I was just trying to indicate why a WS might be reluctant to go back and provide full and honest answers about the past.

Based on your situation, it seems to me that while the letter you wrote makes every effort to soften the blow (acknowledging the good things he's done, etc.), the reality is there is a hard choice he has in front of him. One he needs to make on the spot. If that's the case, I would shorten things up. Drop the stuff said to "ease the blow" and give him the situation directly and clearly. He is to stop hiding, tell the full truth and face the consequences of his actions head on, or things are done.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
tryingtwo
♀ Member
Member # 19717
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for your input LC

I don't want or expect an answer on the spot. I am giving my WH the letter next week and then I am going to leave for the day. I am going to ask him to not only read the letter, but think about it. I have also said in the letter that he can choose not to reply to it at all. I think I will leave in the softening factors. It is who I am, wordy, sentimental prose. He will hear my heart by those words. He too is wordy, sentimental prose.
Again, thank you.


Innocent people generally want to get to the bottom of things. Guilty people usually want the discussion to be over as soon as possible.

Posts: 10311 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Oregon
soheartbroken
♀ Member
Member # 19307
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is there anything someone can suggest to improve communication between me and WH? Biggest problem in R right now. We are 6 months from d-day, and he still trys to avoid anything relating to the A. What happens is that we get into arguments then neither will speak to each other for days. Drives me crazy.

I asked that he write down what he is willing to do and what he has to offer his wife and family. I want him to come up with a plan to get us out of this hell. Have not received this yet, and glad I wasn't holding my breathe.

Things he has done is changed cel number, I have all access to phone records, statements etc. He calls when he leaves work, except when we are not speaking.

I am at the end of my rope, and giving up hope. I know he has always been a quiet person in the past, but I think if you are at the point of losing your family, now would be a good time to speak up. Any suggestions would really help.


If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything.

Posts: 671 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Houston
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:17 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

soheartbroken - Tough one for me to answer, since our communication has gradually improved from D-Day and feels very positive right now. But there may be a few alternatives. One is maybe you could both journal your thoughts, and then allow each other to read them on a regular basis. Taking away the opportunity to cut each other off before you have made your full point might help.

I will say that Wells came up with one of the best communication tools she could have offered early on. We read After the Affair together (we each had a copy). After we had both completed a chapter, we would discuss the chapter and the summary at the end. We would talk about places of agreement and disagreement. Somehow, I think it made our conversations a bit more clinical and therefor a bit more safe.

And of course if you can find and latch onto a good MC, they are great at finding ways to break through communication barriers.

Hope one of these might help out in some way.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
soheartbroken
♀ Member
Member # 19307
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you LC. This is so frustrating because it is keeping us from moving ahead. He said he was open to MC, and may try that route. He did say he was worried that the MC would tell me just to leave him because he had a LTA.

I may see if he would like to join SI. I know he does not have anyone he can talk to about this. Thanks again.


If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything.

Posts: 671 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Houston
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He's most welcome to join. If he needs a "safe haven" to talk he can always PM me.

And as for his fear about MC, good MC's don't tell either party what they should do. They ask key questions that lead each person to come to their own "right conclusions".


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
soheartbroken
♀ Member
Member # 19307
Default  Posted: 8:52 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks again. As soon as we are both at a point where we can sit down and talk, I will suggest it. I feel like I am doing all the work sometimes, but I know he is lost and not sure what to do to make this right. I know we are both really scared that we may lose each other.

LC, you are so great to help others. This is hard for both WS and BS.


If you don't stand for something, you will fall for everything.

Posts: 671 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Houston
Topic Posts: 1000
Pages: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · 9 · 10 · 11 · 12 · 13 · 14 · 15 · 16 · 17 · 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 · 24 · 25 · 26 · 27 · 28 · 29 · 30 · 31 · 32 · 33 · 34 · 35 · 36 · 37 · 38 · 39 · 40 · 41 · 42 · 43 · 44 · 45 · 46 · 47 · 48 · 49 · 50

Return to Forum: I Can Relate This Topic is Full
adultry
Go to :
madness  
© 2002 - 2014 SurvivingInfidelity.com. All Rights Reserved.