[This message edited by KSA2 at 10:06 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday)]
Please read the guidelines in the first post of this thread very carefully.
What is the best way to give a clear indication of what is expected of WH - without it being an ultimatum??
I gave him 6 months to meet my "non-negotiable" demands. He did nothing! I got a calender - and said pick a date to tell the kids that I am filing. Now we are in MC. However now he is dragging his feet and not doing the assignments given by the MC. So now what - should I just throw in the towel & file?
I'm having a bit of a rocky patch at the moment and I was hoping for a WS perspective( especially a WS who has had to have contact with OW post Dday)
My husband works with OW- he has to work quite closely with her and he says that they only discuss work related stuff. I do believe him and he has been making a lot of efforts to make me feel better.... but it still rips me apart that they are working together.
Last night was very hard as H went out to a works do that OW was at too.
They've attended other things but last night there were fewer people and they all sat round one table. He also got back just before midnight - a lot later than I thought. I felt like I had to drag out of H what whey talked about ( all work stuff)
I don't think H knows why I was upset-he got quite defensive and said nothing untoward happened / was said at all. i believe this but I said again I was kept in the dark. If he'd phoned during the evening just to say hello and to explain that he was part of a general conversation that included OW I would have felt so much better.
After working days it's usually me who asks if OW worked more hours/ did they have more conversations etc
I don't think there's anything sinister going on- h feels he's moved on, the affair is over , he's really busy at work etc but i think he forgets the fact that as soon as he sets foot out of the door in the morning I'm completely in the dark about what goes on....
Sorry - this has been really long winded... but I was wondering if other WS have been in a similar situation and how they managed to help their BS to move forward?
I've tried telling my H all this but it does feel sometimes like we're talking in different languages...
So if he is faced with a "make or break" choice, he moves. But if left to his own pace, he drags things out?
I'm curious as to whether or not he avoids conflict the way I did. In my efforts to not get into a fight (that I assumed I was going to lose anyway), I would continually set things back. Most likely it was burying my head in the sand rather than face the truth.
Two things in our case I think made a big difference. The first is I knew from day one that Wells was serious about leaving if I didn't straighten myself out. She gave me some latitude to work through issues in IC, but I think if she saw no progress in six months I would have seen D papers. I'm not certain on this, but if nothing else moves your WS then you may have to actually have D papers written up and placed somewhere your WS will see them and be reminded that the threat of losing the M is real.
The other thing that was important was a sense of Wells and I fighting a common battle. This wasn't a case of "her righteousness versus my transgressions". It was the two of us figuring out what I needed to do to heal myself, and hopefully heal us in the process. That takes away the feeling of conflict, because we are in this together. So it may be a situation where you talk about the MC homework and discuss what is holding him from doing it. Excuses need to be weeded out and set aside. If he says he's too busy, it's countered with nothing he is spending his time on being more important than saving the M (including work). Keep working on "what is preventing you from getting this done" until you uncover the core issue he is facing.
If this is an ongoing cycle, it may be an example of your WS not believing you will go through with D. That he can string things along without consequences. It's like when you tell a child you will take away a toy for misbehaving. Then you tell them again. Then you tell them again. Yet the toy never gets taken away. They learn that these are idle threats and will never be followed through on, so they keep behaving the way they are since there are no consequences.
The fact he is with OW seems like more than fair grounds for filing D papers. It doesn't mean he will just roll over and let the D happen. But at least he will know you aren't willing to let him continue acting the way he has without consequences for his actions.
Just wanted you to know I am sending healing thoughts your way.
I've just sat down and written a long letter to H - I always find this easier so I do hope he 'gets it' more.
I've said that we can't change the A or that they work together ( for the next 6months to a year anyway) but we can work together to deal with the reality that I struggle with their working relationship and come up with things we can both do to make the best of the current situation. I am really hoping that this sinks in and he volunteers more information about work stuff.....
I feel like I have lost a lot because of the A and I see thread after thread about this but I have never seen one about what the WS feels like they have lost.
Since a lot of my anger is due to my loss, and my own WS is not good at articulating it, I am hoping some WS's here will post a list of their losses. I think it would help me to see things from both sides.
‘Nothing we can do can change the past, but everything we do changes the future.’
My story is somewhat different from what I've seen on the forum. Usually there is remorse immediately after or soon after, if the WS wants to reconcile with the BS. But that hasn't happened in my case.
The way my WH has been acting over the last almost eight months, would indicate that he was still in contact with the OW. However, this has not been the case. In short, WH had an affair over a a period of about two months, seeing the OW only twice during that time. Contact continued only because she had developed feelings for him and wanted him to see her again. That contact lasted six months but ended right before I found out about his A due to an email I ran across.
About a month ago, I had had enough of his forum flirtation with other women, text messaging, chats, emails and phone calls all the hours of the day and night. I put my foot down giving WH a list of things that he needed to do in order for me to stay. He did leave the forum he moderated and also closed down his chat programs immediately, but as far as working on helping me, himself or our marriage, that has not been done. I gave up, told him it was over and I was determined to leave. However, due to a legal matter (child custody, I live overseas), I cannot leave the country without my daughter. If I do, I will be slapped with kidnapping charges (very long story). Anyway, WH is aware of all this and still nothing is being done on his part. Even when I was ready to walk, he was as cold as ice.
Over the last few days, WH has told me that he has more clarity of mind and can see all that he has done to me over the last few months. He says he was not aware of what he had been doing after I had found out about the A ,and I never even received an apology for any of it.
Here is my question...Is it possible the he was so fogged up that he didn't know what he was doing all these months? And if so, I have read on this forum that being in the fog is usually something that happens when the WS is still in contact with the OP.
Please help..any input is appreciated
[This message edited by Shotthrutheheart at 9:10 AM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]
I started to make a list, but what I concluded is the I've lost 'myself'. There are many, many individual 'things' like self-respect, trust, innocent selfishness, freedom, joy, and on and on. What it all boiled down to was what I was (or who I thought I was) has been forever slammed. It's the the most terrible feeling I have ever experienced. Recovery (personally) from this place feels impossible at times. I'm very fortunate that my BW wants to come out the other end of this place stronger as a couple. I want that, too, but I don't even know who I am for sure.
The most compelling thing about this site is that I can come here and feel human without having some enraged person tell me I need to be dismembered, or worse. I can learn from other people who are further along in the self-learning process, or participate in helping people, like you, simply understand. It helps me not feel like such a total shit.
I lost me. It doesn't get much worse than that.
Oh, my friend, it's not what they take away from you that counts. It's what you do with what you have left. ~Hubert Humphrey
I am hoping some WS's here will post a list of their losses.
I'm not sure any of us could make a complete list of everything we've lost, because it is so extensive. At the heart of it, bear is right. We lost ourselves.
Pre-A, I thought I could always be trusted as someone as a person of integrity. Someone people could believe would always be true to his word. Now no matter how hard I work, there will always be that fragment of doubt in the minds of those that know about the A.
I had been someone who took pride when others commented on how lucky Wells was to have me and how I was a great husband and father. Now while externally I try to be gracious, internally I am wincing knowing great husbands and fathers do not have affairs.
I had been a strong, outgoing person who would strike up a friendship at the drop of a hat. Now, I recoil to some extent and I'm not as happy go lucky.
Certain connections to xMOW now make me shudder. Certain songs, certain locations, triggery things that I no longer can innocently enjoy. I've taken some of them back, but it will never be all of them.
I've lost the belief that all people are good, just some make wrong decisions.
I've lost the respect of my oldest DD at least. She doesn't know the details, but she doesn't respect either the me from the A (which she shouldn't have anyway), nor the person I am today.
I've lost a sense of "even keel" with Wells. Inside me, she will always be a better person than I am.
I've lost the momentum I had in my career. Workwise I now feel very lost. I've made some great strides with the help of a career coach (which set us back quite a bit of money in the process). But I'm not sure I can get back to the performance level I was at before.
I've lost pretty much any friends I had before the A - at least at the same level. They are now people I can enjoy time with. But there are parts of me they do not know. There is a relationship level loss there for certain.
I've lost the ability to do simple things without having to think about whether or not it might be a trigger for Wells first. Running late from a meeting. Making a cell call after hours. Spending quiet time online just mindlessly surfing. All things that never carried consequences before yet now they do.
I've lost the ability to just be stressed or angry without a need to analyze it.
I've lost knowing where things are headed. I've lost my compass. I have a new one, but I am still learning the settings.
You see? This is long already and it's only a fraction of what I walked away from for a stupid flirtatious comment or two.
I lost who I was. I can only hope the me I'm rebuilding can be better than the me I left behind.
Is it possible the he was so fogged up that he didn't know what he was doing all these months?
Yes, it is possible. My fog lasted for five months past D-Day.
And if so, I have read on this forum that being in the fog is usually something that happens when the WS is still in contact with the OP.
I'm not sure I agree with this statement as written. It was not my experience anyway.
The fog for me was a period of time when what I saw and experienced was not real. If I could have stepped away from myself during that time, and seen clearly what I was doing and what my actions would cause, I would have been screaming at myself to stop.
But we have this drawback within us. We are too close to our own situations and experiences, and don't see the bigger picture of what we are doing.
For me, the fog started as I was online, posting and chatting with a group of people who like me were pretty low on opinions of themselves. As we each stroked the others egos, I grew more and more drawn into needed that feedback to feel good. The fog around me grew as my focus tunneled in more and more on the feelings I had when xMOW would say something good about me, and my vision of all other things around me - my wife, my kids, my work, became more blurry.
That's probably in alignment with how you are interpreting the fog, and thus drawing the connection between being foggy and being in contact with the OP.
However, post D-Day I committed to R and started IC. Yet I was still foggy. Because I was still in contact with xMOW? No. Because our brains aren't always designed to just snap and see things a different way. It took months for me to absorb the pain I caused Wells, our kids and even myself. It took months of self examination to try to make some sense out of how this church going, passionate, heart on his sleeve husband and father could become a selfish, cake eating, lying, fencesitting cheater.
Once I did see clearly, I stepped up my focus on Wells and the girls. On what they needed from me. And I've tried not to look back ever since.
Yes, I do see myself getting to a better place. I may never get to where I was, because I'm not sure that was the right place in the first place. I just don't know yet. Throughout my professional life I have been exposed to countless HR 'assessment' activities that have given me tons of information from which to base a good bit of my current introspection and self-evaluation upon. I have been able to piece together the factors that converged, tearing a gaping hole into my internal flaws. I have been broken, and now I don't even have the external validation of xOMW to prop me back up. What I have is a BS who needs to understand, and to do that she needs me to be a rational, on top of his game WH in order to be capable of delivering...and a shattered fantasy in my wake. I am anything but 'on top of my game'. I'm still trying to figure out who I am. My persona has always been the positive energy giver, the decision maker, the man with the plan, the person in charge who you can trust, a strategic thinker who challenges the status quo, and a man of integrity. I now find myself in a horrible pool of self doubt and an absolute hypocrite about my mantras of trust, caring, commitment, and honesty. My focus and concentration is so poor right now it's hard to make it through simple administrative tasks. I'll get there, but it feels like I'm running in soft sand.
Do I need my BW's help? I certainly need her support, and she's willing. But the work that needs to be done to repair what's inside me is my job.
Could I do it without her? Yes, but I'd rather not. If she would choose to move on without me, I'll still have to fix myself, regardless. I can't even imagine my life without her. It's frightenly clear now.
[This message edited by bear at 2:01 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]
As a BS, I often feel angry because I have felt that my WH did not lose nearly as much as I did. But in reading your replies, I see a lot of similarities between what you say, and how he acts. For instance, bears statement
she needs me to be a rational, on top of his game WH in order to be capable of delivering...
seems to be a reflection of how my WH is trying to behave towards me. And since he is trying to be strong to support me, and is also so happy that I have allowed him to stay and given him this chance, I am getting the impression of less loss for him.
In an odd way, it was a comfort to read your replies on what you felt you had lost. So much of it seems to match in some way the feelings I, as a BS have. And I see so much of My own WH in your replies. My WH often refers to himself as feeling like a POS without elaborating on that. I know that he feels horribly ashamed and remorseful. Both of your replies helped me so much to see how much deeper it does affect a WS.
I know that the WS must fix their own brokenness, but are there some concrete things that I can do to help, rather than hinder this process?
As long as you keep letting WSinKS know that you are in a team effort to heal together, and that you are both after the same end goal (being happy together with each other), that in itself can be a huge boost!
Sorry - this has been really long winded... but I was wondering if other WS have been in a similar situation and how they managed to help their BS to move forward?
I worked with xOP...and I know it also tore up my BH. I would only talk to xOP if I absolutely had for work related things...I told my BH of all interactions with him....I think that it helped him some. I have been some what fortunate as he as since left the company and there is a noticable difference to my BH. If he wouln't have left I told my BH that I would...
I think that it is very important that you tell your WH that he needs to report any interactions to you. And if he has to attend work functions then he should contact you...as often as he can. That is another thing that I would do as well...there were a couple of dinners that I had to attend with our department so I made sure to sit as far away from xOP as I could and sent text messages to BH...I also left as soon as dessert was served.
I hope that this helps you some.
D-Day (2) 4-2-08 (finally told the full story)
Forgiveness does not change the past, but it does enlarge the future. ~Paul Boese