She may have been really impacted by the hurricane, and I'd like to make sure she's OK.
FSA, if you're looking, give us a shout and let us know you're OK.
Do not fear competition "in bed"
Whatnow: That's exactly where my fear of competition lies, so it is appropriate for my fortune.
On the OW in "love". My H's OW wrote "I love you and miss you so much" and then went on to say exactly WHY she loved him. He swears they never "discussed" it. That if she brought up his family or wife, he would change the subject back to getting done what he came for. He swears there was never any chance he was leaving me (duh, why would he? and for her?) He swears the "arrangement" was just that, no feelings, no romance, no gifts, no cards, no nothing.
I know he lies so I don't believe him. Not after what I read in her letters. No chance. She was one of the desperate and lonely.
But it doesn't matter if her words were truth and his were lies or he's telling the truth.
He still made the choice. He did the deed. He broke the promises. He abused my trust and love. He's responsible to me.
Today was bad. This weekend was bad. I get so tired of his negativity and judgements. We argued first thing this morning. We argued at dinner and the final straw was when we saw an ad for a new movie coming out... "Flash of Genius" about the guy who invented the intermittent window wiper. Ford stole his idea and he fought them. H's take: "Just like a greedy corporation" My immediate take was "Look at the integrity and human endeavor of this guy". Just so far apart. Earlier, our argument was something about naitivity (oh spelling). And I said that I was trying to see the good, find a silver lining, give people the benefit of the doubt again. He told me I was stupid for thinking that way. So I said, "maybe you're right, but if I didn't think that way, we wouldn't be together. I've given you the benefit of the doubt our entire relationship and look where it got me. You're right. I am stupid." I got dressed and went out for a drive. No where to go unfortunately.
I'm going back to the gym at 6 AM tomorrow. I'm done fooling around with him. And I'm going to ask to speak to his counselor. He can say no, but believe me, he doesn't want to do that.
Anyone else have the ability to speak to the other's IC. I wouldn't care if he had questions for mine.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
This perspective makes me sit back and think about how bad my life "isn't".
WH got this fortune on Saturday:
"Honestly will reward you well" How perfect for the situation, eh?
"Giving will make you smile"
well he is just doing that to make her feel better but deep down he still luuuuuvvvvs ME"
HS- I've had those same thoughts. When WH told her NC on the phone- she told him half of the stuff he was saying was directly from me. So...she didn't really believe it. I agrue with WH regularly about how I think she left the situation being okay with it and he doesn't see how that could have happened. Oh well. Interesting too- we were talking the other day and he still sees OW#1 as the "slut" (she was) but she was also married with children & was going home everynight like the good little mother & wife....yet OW#2 was offering up drunk sex for rides, had just ended a relationship with a band boy in which they were drinking all night every night....yet, she was somehow seen as "better". Uh ha. How ever you get there buddy....whatever you want to believe.
I am still kicking my own ass for the conversations I had with OW#2 after D-day- some of them I actually confirmed WH's feelings towards her to make her feel better. WH was still in the fog & I was being caretaker of my "friend". It SO pisses me off that I opened myself up to that. I DID however get a lot out of the conversations because I had a lot of info confirmed which I would have struggled with otherwise.
LH- I hope the weekend went okay. While I agree that it's no fun to always be the whiner & it's not productive I don't think most people understand the hurt & devestation we go through- the hundreds of dynamics of it- and that yes, we are all gonna have low times that we NEED to be hurt, whine, cry, scream, whatever it may be. ((HUGS))
Hi UKG. Hope you're back regularly soon.
Weepy- I wouldn't say that I necessarily "fear" competition in bed....but I did tell WH this weekend that I have decided to do IC sometime based on a lot of the sex stuff.
I seem to have a conflict between good martial sex compared to the hot kinky sex that's common with A's. I know they can be combined but sometimes the hot kinky sex is a trigger in itself and also makes me feel even shittier at times. Porn is a huge trigger for me right now- I can't watch it and NOT be triggered.
Today is a trigger too. What isn't a trigger for me- really? I took the day off to spend with the family since my boys stayed with my dad Friday night. Monday & Fridays were the days I went to work & WH & OW watched the kids.... After d-day OW#2 told me that WH would always tell her when a holiday was coming up as I'd be home from work...and how they'd be upset about their missed time. Of course, WH argues that he's more happier to be with me (possibly true) and that he was only telling her to notify her since she would be upset. Sounds so silly but it kills me to think that when I was home relaxing & enjoying a holiday that they were bummed that I was home becuase they couldn't have sex. None of it makes any sense- she didn't even want the sex- she wanted the attention which she barely received but I guess she figured she needed to keep putting out for the possibility of receiving some attention. How pathetic.
I'm gonna go tape the honestly fortune on the computer screen right now. WH will love that when he sees it.
D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA
"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".
Whatnow - I used to really enjoy the spicy stuff in bed... Haven't 'been' with WH for a few weeks, but last time I felt icky after the event. If we ever get to R, I know it will be an issue for me.
Weepy - always amazed (tho why IDK) at how WH doesn't think before speaking... never putting words into the context of the current situation. On the loss of Paul Newman my WH says: I wonder how C (his daughter) is doing? I look at him quizzically... 'remember I told you I had a daliance with her shortly after college?' Not really what I want to think about since he is making an attempt to get to R again. To his credit he did comment on the insensitivity of the remark later.... STill, makes you wonder what WH is fundamentally capable of in terms of meeting a spouse's needs. (gee, we have needs too???)
I sent an email to spouse's IC once, kinda backfired. I knew I might be seen as trying to manipulate what WH is doing in IC. I agree the lack of the whole picture can make real change difficult. (I know b/c I work as a counselor - yeah, ironic.) Everything contingent on WH's ability to be honest and show vulnerablities... not a strong point for most WHs it seems.
Maybe you could ask to go to a joint session with his IC sometime?
As for in bed... our old kinky, sexy, hot sex life basically died on my hysterectomy. I know that was the timing issue for he affairs, but I was just as upset as he was about the changes. I still tried. I still did the "slut" routine for him, but because I would occasionally say "ow" or wait, that hurts, or even "easy" then I was having a problem. He finally stopped in the middle one day and said "that's it. I'm never touching you again." Now I know that I should have let it sit for a couple days and revisited it calmly. Maybe we could have done something. But actually now, I think maybe he had already been with the hooker or two and seen what "real" women felt and acted like when they were enjoying sex. I think he was already gone by the time he said it was over.
Anyway, sex basically sucks now. For many reasons. One, my mind movies, the need to compete with the whores and his toxic hot "lovemaking" with the GF. Also, he's just not that involved as he used to be. I don't know if that's because he doesn't care and just wants to get it over with or if he's forgotten what we were like and just does whore/porn sex now. He hasn't asked me ONCE in the last 3 years if I've come. He always did and if I didn't he'd "make it up to me" next time or even later. Now it's like he can't hold out long enough and when we're done, he pops out of bed and goes in and cleans up. Gets dressed or in his robe and we're done. No hugging, no kissing, no cuddling, no I love yous. It's like his obligation is over, get past it and move on.
I mean how do you bring up the fact that you're not liking the sex life without him getting all "you hate me" or "that's your problem." I've brought it up as OUR problem and my problem, but it always comes down to "you expect too much, you don't know what you want and I never had a problem before with anyone I've been with." Yeah, they really need to engage brain and THEN open mouth.
Your sister is very lucky to have you with her. The advantage of having the head honcho on her "case" is that she will receive their full attention, and that they would be more willing to engage, KWIM?
When my mum was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, and they bluntly gave us a few weeks...and she was still around AFTER that...the head honcho got involved and he wanted to try out an unconventional route...and it paid out.
Loads and loads of white light, my friend.
Weepy, the age old sex issue...
I asked my IC last week how do you know if its sex or "making love", and she said, "You would know."..so I guess we have sex. Its good sex...but still just sex. I dont know what its like to MAKE LOVE...I dont think we have ever. Isnt that just sad?
I am doing so much better today. I just cant believe where I was just barely 2 weeks ago today.
I was listening to the song "We only just begun" by The Carpenters on the way home...and that song has ALWAYS made me so sad.
But then I got to thinking of the lyrics in terms of me, and today it made me smile.
Before the rising sun we fly
So many roads to choose
We start our walking
And learn to run
And yes! We've just begun
I have only just begun...on me.
hope everyone is hanging on and trying to be kind to themselves.
I asked my IC last week how do you know if its sex or "making love", and she said, "You would know."..so I guess we have sex.
During the A's- I remember thinking off & on how we seemed to be having very distant sex when it did happen- which was scattered in frequency. After d-day WH told me that sex with them was similar to what it had been with me, other than the kissing and I just recently realized that it wasn't that sex with them became like "us" it was that sex with "us" became like them. He was having sex with them much more often, the distance between us was worsening so it would have been natural for the sex to become purely sex- out of duty. We had good times too....but they were up & down.
Our sex life is actually really good right now- has been since D-day. I was sad when I realized that HB was over....but it's still good. I think we have sex sometimes...and other times we're more connected- more sensual although at the same time the sex part can become more like kinky sex too. hope that makes sense. I have my days of feeling more self concious, or being more triggered than others which makes it difficult. I don't want to slide back to where we were. WH & I were laughing last night how we used to go months at a time sometimes and now we can't go more than 3 or 4 days. We've been bad lately- 2 times Sat, 2 times Sun, and only some playing around today.
Weepy...I'm not sure what advice to give you. If no matter what you say, your WH is going to get defensive I'm not sure how to make any progress.
On a side note: WH is at his first IC session right now! A huge relief for me- I can't wait to hear about it...if he shares. I just hope he likes the person & feel comfortable.
On a side note: WH is at his first IC session right now! A huge relief for me- I can't wait to hear about it...if he shares. I just hope he likes the person & feel comfortable
YIPEE- They had their session for a bit over an hour and WH likes her! I really hope this is beneficial for him. Oh ya, and she wants to meet me in a few weeks.
Here's what I tell my H.
The OW did not love you. She thought she did and in the shallow sense that she might have been capable of love, maybe she did. But if she had really loved you, she would never have wanted you to lose your self-respect, your integrity, or the respect and love of those who mean the most to you. She would have encouraged you to go back to your wife, to seek professional help if you were truly unhappy and if, after all of that, you couldn't make your M work, then to leave honestly. That to me is true love. When we love someone, we don't bring that person down to their lowest point. We don't want the worst for them. We want what is best for them and for those they love. Nothing about their relationship with our H's contributed to bringing out what was best in our H's. It contributed to their spiritual and moral demise. How is that love?????
I said similar, but not quite as eloquently to my H, fnf, right after dday when he wanted to believe that OW was person that cared for him and helped him through a difficult situation.
Their so-called love is really about their own neediness and their own lack of self worth. Any woman willing to settle for a life as the OW with no possibility of commitment and involving themselves with someone who has proven to be incapable of commitment, has to have the lowest self-esteem imaginable. Their is no hope for a future with these men, there is only the seedy, fleeting moments that hold no promise of anything other than an empty, lonely self-hatred once they realize exactly what they meant to the men they only thought they loved.
The coldheartedness of lying in wait for the destruction of another person's M and family is absolutely unfathomable to me. I would rarely say never say never about anything, but I would never do that to another woman. I said as much to OW in e-mail shortly after dday since she didn't want to talk on the phone. Can't imagine why. Contacting her was both cathartic, but ultimately, frustrating because
I will never be able to change their warped view of the world so why bother.
So glad to hear you're feeling better, LH.
Same 'ol same 'ol, weepy.
Good for your H, Whatnow28. I hope the IC helps.
Hoooooleeeeee sheeeeet!! Here is hoping that no one here is on Wall Street.
Weepy, if your H is determined to be an argumentative asshat there is nothing you can do about it but ignore him. I feel bad for you about the whole sex thing as that must hurt so much especially the way he handled it.
Whatnow - glad he like his IC. I really do feel that this is the only way these WS will ever be able to peel back the layers of their psyche and truly understand what the root of their problem is.
The coldheartedness of lying in wait for the destruction of another person's M and family is absolutely unfathomable to me. I would rarely say never say never about anything, but I would never do that to another woman.
As far as the whole sex thing get ready for TMI, after HB and then the just "use him" phase (thanks Brooke!! ) I have gone celebate with my H. I know this sounds weird but I felt like the whole sex thing was getting in the way of my healing. How could I put him at a distance so that I could work on myself and then have sex with him which, by definition to ME, is an intimate act. I wanted the space I needed to listen to my head and my heart. If, and when, I know my path then I will feel better not having put myself out there. If we go forward, then I want to literally start from the beginning. Does this suck? Yes. Does it feel right? Yes. Do I worry that with his sex drive he will get fed up and turn to another? No. If he does, I have the answer I need. So, I am getting A LOT of exercise, working out, anything to keep me "distracted".
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 7:20 PM, September 29th (Monday)]
Maybe for those whose sex life was constant during those years this isn't a necessary part of the healing process. I felt so damn cheated having missed so many years of a healthy sex life that I was determined to make up for all the lost years
Our sex life didn't change (much) during the A's. I have always been less interested...and now after D-day and reading & MC realize we were in the vicious cycle of not meeting needs- his sexual & my affection. I would be so offended when he wouldn't do anything for me but would then expect sex at bedtime or in the morning. We had our ups & downs and would sometimes have sex regularly and then go weeks at a time. Didn't help that I was breastfeeding, then pregnant, then breastfeeding again during the LTA.
For us, the continued sex is important to feel like a couple- to have that shared intimacy and closeness. I think if I were holding out the sex aspect I would feel like we weren't moving forward as a couple but as individuals instead.
we do a lot of cuddling and talking afterward that we rarely did before and this is the intimacy that I find very, very important to my healing.
2 things here. Again, we had the cuddling afterwards at time in the past and certainly do it now.
The other issue this makes me think of is how it was a constant argument of WH's & OW#2 because he never was affectionate with her before or after sex- which made her feel shitty, obviously! Boo f'in hoo.
[This message edited by Whatnow28 at 7:32 PM, September 29th (Monday)]
Sending your sister positive thoughts for the best possible results.
You have been subjected to such cruelty from your husband for such a long time. I hope you recognize how very awful his treatment of you is and has been. And that it shows no sign of changing.
I'm glad to hear you're feeling better.
I think you should switch to Italian or Thai for a while.